King Song S18 Discussion

[OldFartRides]

My stock shock was spreading the linkages. I took a good 1/16” off each end of the barrel the bolt goes through on the bottom and some off the top end as well.

 The s18 I bought new took more work than the one I bought used, but they both had binding/ alignment issues. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by OldFartRides

[Tawpie]

Shock top and bottom binding bolts.

 

Looking into the binding bolt after everything is installed we can see the threads of the shoulder end before they clear the linkage. When the actual bolt is tightened, it will pull on the shoulder and clamp the linkage to the shock bushings.

I used shoulder bolt shims to fill out the gap between the end of the shoulder and the face of the actual bolt.

It’s not really possible to measure for how many shims are needed, so I kept adding shims until the bushings didn’t bind when I tightened everything down.

By the way, when taking the pictures I redid both sets of shims, top and bottom—it dawned on me that the reason the bottom linkage was too close together was because I had overshimmed the top! When you get the shims just right, it all goes together very very neatly, no need to spread the links.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Tawpie

[Ksmack]

2 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Shock top and bottom binding bolts.

 

Looking into the binding bolt after everything is installed we can see the threads of the shoulder end before they clear the linkage. When the actual bolt is tightened, it will pull on the shoulder and clamp the linkage to the shock bushings.

I used shoulder bolt shims to fill out the gap between the end of the shoulder and the face of the actual bolt.

It’s not really possible to measure for how many shims are needed, so I kept adding shims until the bushings didn’t bind when I tightened everything down.

By the way, when taking the pictures I redid both sets of shims, top and bottom—it dawned on me that the reason the bottom linkage was too close together was because I had overshimmed the top! When you get the shims just right, it all goes together very very neatly, no need to spread the links.

After reading your post I ordered the same shims and installed them. Works so much better! Thanks for figuring this out. Here are some photos:

 

[NewB]

9 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Shock top and bottom binding bolts.

 

Looking into the binding bolt after everything is installed we can see the threads of the shoulder end before they clear the linkage. When the actual bolt is tightened, it will pull on the shoulder and clamp the linkage to the shock bushings.

I used shoulder bolt shims to fill out the gap between the end of the shoulder and the face of the actual bolt.

It’s not really possible to measure for how many shims are needed, so I kept adding shims until the bushings didn’t bind when I tightened everything down.

By the way, when taking the pictures I redid both sets of shims, top and bottom—it dawned on me that the reason the bottom linkage was too close together was because I had overshimmed the top! When you get the shims just right, it all goes together very very neatly, no need to spread the links.

Thank you so much! I have an S18 coming at the end of the month, and I am planning on doing some preventative maintenance. I am honored you took the time to help everyone out!

[NewB]

29 minutes ago, NewB said:

Thank you so much! I have an S18 coming at the end of the month, and I am planning on doing some preventative maintenance. I am honored you took the time to help everyone out!

It looks like 3@0.031" would have gotten you there, too. Just to be on the safe side, though, I ordered both sizes just in case I need a tiny bit more.

[Ksmack]

9 minutes ago, NewB said:

It looks like 3@0.031" would have gotten you there, too. Just to be on the safe side, though, I ordered both sizes just in case I need a tiny bit more.

With 3 there was a slight amount of binging. I only ordered the 0.031” shims, so I need to add another. I wish I’d ordered both sizes. Just went for a test ride and it is definitely better. 

[enaon]

does anyone have an idea what this port on the s18 could be for?. The drawing and markings point to a ultrasonic sensor, it really puzzles me a bit. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by enaon

[KNZ]

Alright I’m coming out from my lurking status to ask a question. Does anyone here have any experience with a fast charger on the s18? I’ve finally come to terms with myself that I don’t really want a huge battery wheel since I very rarely ride farther than 20-30 miles (not enough time to anyway these days ). 

so…how fast does the fast charger charge anyway? Say from 20-80%? Wouldn’t mind bringing the charger with me for if I have time to go exploring further.

[Funky]

10 hours ago, KNZ said:

Alright I’m coming out from my lurking status to ask a question. Does anyone here have any experience with a fast charger on the s18? I’ve finally come to terms with myself that I don’t really want a huge battery wheel since I very rarely ride farther than 20-30 miles (not enough time to anyway these days ). 

so…how fast does the fast charger charge anyway? Say from 20-80%? Wouldn’t mind bringing the charger with me for if I have time to go exploring further.

~4hrs? Slow charger charges from 50-100% about 8hrs? (That's including 1-2hrs off "balancing")

[fbhb]

Ecodrift teardown the New Molicel 910Wh King Song S18 V2:

The following link shows All the teardown photos and interestingly that the S18 V2 motor has already been pinned to avoid any chance of stator slippage:

Kingsong S18 v2 910Wh. Disassembling (+video) – Ecodrift

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by fbhb

[Ksmack]

26 minutes ago, fbhb said:

Ecodrift teardown the New Molicel 910Wh King Song S18 V2:

 

It looks like the stator has the pin fix. 

[KNZ]

Looks promising! I wonder when we’ll get this v2 in the states…

[Ksmack]

How much battery degradation/range loss is normal? I’ve got the Molicel S18 and have about 1700 miles on it. I feel like I’m getting noticeably less range. A few months ago (when I was at 1000 miles) I was able to do a 20 mile trip at an average speed of 17 mph and use about 40-45% of the battery. Now I’m taking about 65% do do similar trips. I managed a few 30 mile trips this year, but now it feels like I’d be lucky to hit 25 miles.

As I mentioned previously, it only seems to charge up to 83.1 V after the latest firmware update. I do notice that if I ride down a small incline immediately after charging the voltage will spike up close to 84V, so I imagine that might be a safety feature that prevents it from overcharging. I also had a low speed angle-tilt cut out/shut off a few months back.

Has anyone else with Molicel packs noticed significant range loss over time?

[enaon]

35 minutes ago, Ksmack said:

How much battery degradation/range loss is normal? I’ve got the Molicel S18 and have about 1700 miles on it. I feel like I’m getting noticeably less range. A few months ago (when I was at 1000 miles) I was able to do a 20 mile trip at an average speed of 17 mph and use about 40-45% of the battery. Now I’m taking about 65% do do similar trips. I managed a few 30 mile trips this year, but now it feels like I’d be lucky to hit 25 miles.

As I mentioned previously, it only seems to charge up to 83.1 V after the latest firmware update. I do notice that if I ride down a small incline immediately after charging the voltage will spike up close to 84V, so I imagine that might be a safety feature that prevents it from overcharging. I also had a low speed angle-tilt cut out/shut off a few months back.

Has anyone else with Molicel packs noticed significant range loss over time?

no real drop in capacity for the s18's I know off, I am monitoring mine since I have 4p and want to see how it goes with time, I am still able to do ~50 miles on a charge after ~4k miles on them. Temperature plays a big role on my LG cells though, I am loosing more than 25% distance per charge on winter time. 

the s18 will easily go to 84.5 volt on a small decline, maybe more but I cannot see it as they stop voltage reporting at 84.5

Edited October 16, 2022 by enaon

[mrelwood]

16 hours ago, Ksmack said:

How much battery degradation/range loss is normal?

In Li-ions in general it's usually 20-30% loss in range after 300 charge cycles. So roughly after 10000 miles.

 

16 hours ago, Ksmack said:

As I mentioned previously, it only seems to charge up to 83.1 V after the latest firmware update.

Firmware updates sometimes (rarely) change the voltage metering calibration. But it can't stop the charging prematurely without completely disabling cell balancing. I don't think even EUC manufacturers make mistakes that bad.

I would still look into this closer, just in case the issue just happened to start at the same time as you upgraded. If opening up the wheel a bit doesn't sound like too much of an effort, measuring the battery voltage manually and comparing it to the app reading would be quite useful to you in the long run.

[enaon]

3 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I would still look into this closer, just in case the issue just happened to start at the same time as you upgraded.

it is verified that latest ks firmwares display ~0.5 volt less top voltage on the s18.

I went to 83.5 from 84, the second (both old firms, 2.06) s18 I updated went to ~83.9 from 84.3, the one that was on 2.11 stayed the same, 83.4

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by enaon

[Ksmack]

1 hour ago, enaon said:

it is verified that latest ks firmwares display ~0.5 volt less top voltage on the s18.

I went to 83.5 from 84, the second (both old firms, 2.06) s18 I updated went to ~83.9 from 84.3, the one that was on 2.11 stayed the same, 83.4

 

Is it a display issue or a charging issue? If it reads 83.5V is it really at 84V? Or is it actually at 83.5V?

[Tawpie]

On 10/12/2022 at 3:31 PM, KNZ said:

so…how fast does the fast charger charge anyway?

The quick way to estimate charge time is to first convert the battery capacity to Ah, S18 has an 1100Wh battery, divide by voltage and you get roughly 13Ah.

Then take the battery capacity in Ah and divide by the current delivered by the charger (5.5A max for KS wheels) and you'll come up with a bit over 2.5 hours for a theoretical full charge.

BUT

The tail end of the charging cycle (starting somewhere between 80-90%) happens at a constant voltage and the amount of current delivered gradually tapers down toward very small so the constant voltage portion of the charge cycle takes a while—seems on my KS wheels it's at least a couple of hours. The fast charger doesn't make any difference here, it's underutilized.

Since 50-80% is about 4Ah, and it'll happen at 5.5A because you're not to the CV phase yet, the better part of an hour should get you there. Obviously, 80% is not going to get your cells balanced so you shouldn't do this routinely... besides, you're missing the top 20% of your riding power.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Tawpie

[enaon]

7 hours ago, Ksmack said:

Is it a display issue or a charging issue? If it reads 83.5V is it really at 84V? Or is it actually at 83.5V?

I have not measured the old ones that went down yet, but my guess is that it is just a reporting thing, my multimeter is not calibrated so I cannot rely on it, but it was giving me the same voltage on the batteries on the s18 on firm 2.06 that reported 84, and on the one on 2.11 that reported 83.4. The multimeter was saying 83.9 in both cases, but I am not sure it is true, it was the same though. 

after the update the 2.06->2.16 fell to 83.5, the 2.11->2.16 stayed the same, 83.4. I will measure them when I have them both here at the same time. 

 

I have also ruled out the chargers, we used all three of them on all three of the s18s, they made no difference, every s18 reported a bit different value in respect to the other ones, but it was not related to the charger used.

Edited October 17, 2022 by enaon

[Tawpie]

On 10/11/2022 at 7:13 AM, enaon said:

does anyone have an idea what this port on the s18 could be for?. The drawing and markings point to a ultrasonic sensor, it really puzzles me a bit.

I wonder if it was a trial of a trolley handle deploy sensor?

[Tawpie]

While I'm thinking about it, I did a range check with a brand new set of Molicel packs. Not scientific, just riding around Marty style. 32 miles to 35%. 5 more miles to "walk with wheel in very awkward tilted posture". The last 5 miles were ridden quite conservatively, I fully expected the remaining energy to fall off a cliff and it did. 61.5V is about where zero should be set in EUCWorld's custom battery percentage setting. If the voltage ever touches 60V, it goes into full tiltback until you power cycle it.

Sadly, I never did fully exhaust the stock batteries so I don't know how much worse this is than stock.

[Ksmack]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

While I'm thinking about it, I did a range check with a brand new set of Molicel packs. Not scientific, just riding around Marty style. 32 miles to 35%. 5 more miles to "walk with wheel in very awkward tilted posture". The last 5 miles were ridden quite conservatively, I fully expected the remaining energy to fall off a cliff and it did. 61.5V is about where zero should be set in EUCWorld's custom battery percentage setting. If the voltage ever touches 60V, it goes into full tiltback until you power cycle it.

Sadly, I never did fully exhaust the stock batteries so I don't know how much worse this is than stock.

Nice! What is Marty style? How fast were you going? Around 20mph? Getting 37 miles is a pretty decent result. 

[Tawpie]

49 minutes ago, Ksmack said:

Nice! What is Marty style? How fast were you going? Around 20mph? Getting 37 miles is a pretty decent result. 

Pretty not fast... casual trails and road over three legs, 'touring' if you will, definitely not sending it or anything else. The third leg was on the road because the battery was gonna die and I already knew how awkward it is to trolly the wheel in "no more riding" mode.

First leg: https://euc.world/tour/614509990909217

Second leg: https://euc.world/tour/614581154899348

Third leg: https://euc.world/tour/614616510166155

Edited October 24, 2022 by Tawpie

[NewB]

The newest batch of S18s seems to be hitting the streets. Has anyone (other than Ecodrift) done a teardown or close inspection to see what needs to be tweaked, replaced, or fixed?

[fbhb]

3 hours ago, NewB said:

Has anyone (other than Ecodrift) done a teardown or close inspection to see what needs to be tweaked, replaced, or fixed?

There have not been any other teardowns of the New suspension slider model S18, as far as I am aware.

Ecodrift will be the most thorough teardown, with the best incite into any possible issues anyway IMHO.

None of the usual YouTubers really come close to the Russian's engineering knowledge of EUC's IMO, so I'd be more inclined to ONLY follow their take on any possible issues!

Edited November 4, 2022 by fbhb