King Song S18 Discussion

[Fahrtwind]

I had the same error, the motherboard was replaced under warranty. Everything is fine now…I documented it a few threads above

[euc.alyptus]

On 9/11/2022 at 2:26 PM, Fahrtwind said:

I had the same error, the motherboard was replaced under warranty. Everything is fine now…I documented it a few threads above

I have contacted salesperson on Kingsong but they haven't responded yet. 

 

Meanwhile, can I just put 84Volt from the charger to the Red and Black cable of the Front batteries to charge it? since the batteries has already built in BMS.

or the charging need to be via other cables (i.e the smaller cables beside the red and black)

 

 

Update:

So apparently, the smaller cables (green and blue) on the connector is some sort of sensor/health signal of the battery. I measured the voltage and it gaves 11,87 Volt. So definitely it's not charging cables. 

(Just for testing under full monitoring) now, I tried to charge the battery packs directly from charger (skip the motherboard) to see if it can reach full potential of 84 Volt. 

 

 

Update 2:

So I managed to charge all the battery packs to 84Volt (Front bat: 84 Volt; rear left&right each 42Volt). I waited for about an hour after charge to see if the battery could hold the voltage. And YES they are all could hold the potential. So I concluded that my battery and their BMS is all OKAY. Just to make sure I check the potential between green and blue wire of the battery connector and it read 12 Volt.

So the only suspect left is the motherboard or the charger. But since I used the charger to charge the battery pack directly I assume my charger is in good condition too.

Edited September 12, 2022 by euc.alyptus
Update on case

[Tawpie]

On 9/10/2022 at 8:19 PM, euc.alyptus said:

 

Hi all. I currently have issue charging my S18.

 

I just had almost the same thing happen to me today… 

Went for a normal ride, a couple “regular” drops, nothing violent. All is great, I get back and plug into charger. Charges about a volt to 74V then charger starts blinking red and green, as time went by it was mostly green.

Very little or no current going into the wheel according to EUCWORLD and the KS app. I have no errors, diagnostics all show normal.

Tried a second (1A) charger, same result except the 1A charger doesn’t turn the wheel on when I plug it in. Bluetooth works fine, when it’s not on charger it balances fine.

Of course this happens when I’m on vacation and don’t have many tools (no multimeter either)… does this sound like something is just loose or does it sound more serious?

[euc.alyptus]

4 hours ago, Tawpie said:

I just had almost the same thing happen to me today… 

Went for a normal ride, a couple “regular” drops, nothing violent. All is great, I get back and plug into charger. Charges about a volt to 74V then charger starts blinking red and green, as time went by it was mostly green.

Very little or no current going into the wheel according to EUCWORLD and the KS app. I have no errors, diagnostics all show normal.

Tried a second (1A) charger, same result except the 1A charger doesn’t turn the wheel on when I plug it in. Bluetooth works fine, when it’s not on charger it balances fine.

Of course this happens when I’m on vacation and don’t have many tools (no multimeter either)… does this sound like something is just loose or does it sound more serious?

It did happen to me several time in the past. In my case, it was unbalance pack (i.e one battery pack has different voltage then others). I usually just using the wheel until it was low on battery (4 - 10% left) then plugged the charger and it could charged back to 100%. But it ALSO could be an indicator of issue on battery or BMS. We never know until really test/check the battery.

[ffontana]

On 9/15/2022 at 2:01 AM, Tawpie said:

I just had almost the same thing happen to me today… 

Went for a normal ride, a couple “regular” drops, nothing violent. All is great, I get back and plug into charger. Charges about a volt to 74V then charger starts blinking red and green, as time went by it was mostly green.

Very little or no current going into the wheel according to EUCWORLD and the KS app. I have no errors, diagnostics all show normal.

Tried a second (1A) charger, same result except the 1A charger doesn’t turn the wheel on when I plug it in. Bluetooth works fine, when it’s not on charger it balances fine.

Of course this happens when I’m on vacation and don’t have many tools (no multimeter either)… does this sound like something is just loose or does it sound more serious?

Red/green blinking charger led has happened to me 3 times. 

It has always been a broken nickel stripe. Easy to repair, but you need tools...

 

You can try to charge with a disconnected battery and if it charges, the disconnected battery is the one is faulty (keep in mind the two rear packs are one battery and must be disconnected both)

 

 

[Tawpie]

7 minutes ago, ffontana said:

Red/green blinking charger led has happened to me 3 times. 

It has always been a broken nickel stripe. Easy to repair, but you need tools...

 

You can try to charge with a disconnected battery and if it charges, the disconnected battery is the one is faulty (keep in mind the two rear packs are one battery and must be disconnected both)

 

 

Thank you! Oddly, neither front battery will charge... the two front ones' "health" voltages are ~2V, the left rear is 2.5V and the right rear is 0V so they're not happy at all. I do think they're working, their voltages are all as expected when checked individually with a multimeter so the serial stack is still intact.

They'll have to go to a battery expert for repair... it's not something I want to mess with!

[ffontana]

18 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Thank you! Oddly, neither front battery will charge... the two front ones' "health" voltages are ~2V, the left rear is 2.5V and the right rear is 0V so they're not happy at all. I do think they're working, their voltages are all as expected when checked individually with a multimeter so the serial stack is still intact.

They'll have to go to a battery expert for repair... it's not something I want to mess with!

I don't understand the voltages you're reading (2,5v, 2v and 0v)

You just need to disconnect one battery and check if the other two batteries charge correctly.

For example:

- disconnect left-front battery (right-front and 2 rear batteries remain connected). Check for charging. If the wheel charges properly, the left front battery is faulty.

If still red/green blinking, left-front battery is not the faulty one.. reconnect left-front battery again, disconnect the two rear batteries and check again to charge. If charges properly, one of the two rear batteries is the faulty one.

if still red/green blinking for sure is front-right battery. Just to be sure... Reconnect both rear batteries, disconnect front-right battery and check to charge.....

 

take notice:

- you always have to check with 2 batteries connected. if you leave just one battery connected it will never charge as you would have an overcurrent error (2,5 amp is to much for just one parallel).

- the two rear batteries act as one battery pack. They should always be connected or disconnected together at the same time.

 

 

 

[Tawpie]

58 minutes ago, ffontana said:

I don't understand the voltages you're reading (2,5v, 2v and 0v)

Each battery connector also has a green and blue wire that carry a voltage indicating battery "health". I'm told I want to see 12V on the front packs and IIRC 15V on the rears. These are the measurements that are suspect, but having all 4 of them out of spec seems really odd.

The unloaded battery outputs all agree with what the app says is the system voltage so that deepens the mystery.

The front packs both have small <1mm deep indentations where the circular boss on the inner shell hits them—if anything, I'm guessing this is my best clue. But I'm not a battery pack builder so the best I could do would be to short something out and set the house on fire.

Forgot: I did try the disconnect various packs and see if it'll charge trick—no joy. None will charge. That makes me think motherboard, but folks with vastly superior knowledge than I possess don't like the "health" readings and believe they're the root cause. New Molicel packs ship Monday, so I guess I'll find out!

Edited September 18, 2022 by Tawpie

[ffontana]

55 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Each battery connector also has a green and blue wire that carry a voltage indicating battery "health". I'm told I want to see 12V on the front packs and IIRC 15V on the rears. These are the measurements that are suspect, but having all 4 of them out of spec seems really odd.

The unloaded battery outputs all agree with what the app says is the system voltage so that deepens the mystery.

The front packs both have small <1mm deep indentations where the circular boss on the inner shell hits them—if anything, I'm guessing this is my best clue. But I'm not a battery pack builder so the best I could do would be to short something out and set the house on fire.

Forgot: I did try the disconnect various packs and see if it'll charge trick—no joy. None will charge. That makes me think motherboard, but folks with vastly superior knowledge than I possess don't like the "health" readings and believe they're the root cause. New Molicel packs ship Monday, so I guess I'll find out!

Just the green wire is the "health" line.

The blue wire is the charging line trough the BMS (if you charge with red and black you are charging directly)

Didn't charge with none of the 3 possible combinations?  Seems Strange.

 

[enaon]

2 hours ago, ffontana said:

take notice:

- you always have to check with 2 batteries connected. if you leave just one battery connected it will never charge as you would have an overcurrent error (2,5 amp is to much for just one parallel).

are you sure about this?

I think all the s18's I have seen charge fine with just the back pack, the one cut in two halfs, installed.

 

mine, on firm 2.06, will not charge if the back pack is not in, no matter if I have both the front ones in, it will strobe the lights instead. 

 

this may be usefull for measuring the packs health, the back right pack uses the green arrows.

Edited September 18, 2022 by enaon

[ffontana]

1 hour ago, enaon said:

are you sure about this?

I think all the s18's I have seen charge fine with just the back pack, the one cut in two halfs, installed.

 

mine, on firm 2.06, will not charge if the back pack is not in, no matter if I have both the front ones in, it will strobe the lights instead. 

 

this may be usefull for measuring the packs health, the back right pack uses the green arrows.

You can charge with just one pack installed, but if you open the Kingsong app you would see the overcurrent error.

I have seen a couple of videos with Strobing lights, but never happened to me. Don't remember firmware versions I had when I had my batteries problems.

The green wire goes to the Gate leg of the charging MOSFETs and just indicates if the MOSFET is open (12v) or closed because BMS error (0V)

The blue wire goes to the Source leg of the charging MOSFETs (if the MOSFET is opened, it goes to the drain leg and charges the battery)

You can charge through the red/black wires but you're bypassing the charging MOSFETs. In case of BMS error (0v in green wire), the charging MOSFETs are closed and no current on Drain leg of the MOSFET.

 

[ffontana]

1 hour ago, enaon said:

are you sure about this?

I think all the s18's I have seen charge fine with just the back pack, the one cut in two halfs, installed.

 

mine, on firm 2.06, will not charge if the back pack is not in, no matter if I have both the front ones in, it will strobe the lights instead. 

 

this may be usefull for measuring the packs health, the back right pack uses the green arrows.

Regarding the picture. Also the front packs use the green arrows for checking MOSFET state. Blue wire is not used for this purposes.

 

Is not a pwm signal, just says it's opened or not.

[enaon]

3 hours ago, ffontana said:

I have seen a couple of videos with Strobing lights, but never happened to me. Don't remember firmware versions I had when I had my batteries problems.

 

I am a bit confused about the normal behavior of the s18, the ones I have seen that can charge without the half back packs in, are ones that had a problem on one or both the front bms's.

strobing lights and no charge init when the pack packs are not connected, regardless if one or two front ones are in, is the standard on the s18's that were working ok as far as I have seen. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by enaon

[Tawpie]

4 hours ago, ffontana said:

The green wire goes to the Gate leg of the charging MOSFETs and just indicates if the MOSFET is open (12v) or closed because BMS error (0V)

The blue wire goes to the Source leg of the charging MOSFETs (if the MOSFET is opened, it goes to the drain leg and charges the battery)

You wouldn't happen to have a sketch of BMS circuit would you? I'd like to understand this as much as possible... because very very very strangely my 16X reports 0A current to the apps (all of them!) just like the S18 did. The voltage is going up on the 16X and the charger lights aren't red/green but I was concerned first by 0A of current on the S18. Now the S18 appears to have infected my 16X, or something got borked in all the apps? I honestly haven't paid attention to current during charging, it's a very boring measurement.

I've used three chargers: 1A stock (came with the XS) and 2 different 2.5A stock chargers, all with the same result.

I guess I should try with the fast charger—it has charger output current in its display.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Tawpie

[enaon]

7 hours ago, Tawpie said:

The front packs both have small <1mm deep indentations where the circular boss on the inner shell hits them—if anything, I'm guessing this is my best clue.

 am afraid so. This does not sound like nickel stripe, but damage the health measurement components, they are right under this useless piece of extrusion that hits the battery on side falls. Cut it out.  New bms's have an smd for this on a differed spot on the board, and are not affected. 

[enaon]

9 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

because very very very strangely my 16X reports 0A current to the apps (all of them!) just like the S18 did.

this is normal, KS will only report amps, if prior to putting it to the charger it was on. Of it was off it will turn bt on, but no amps. 

sorry, wrong info, I just checked and it does report amps, but I do remember that there is a pattern for what you are sayng, I will find it 

Edited September 19, 2022 by enaon

[Tawpie]

Tried the fast charger, it has a direct readout of delivered current.

With the wheel off and on a stand, plugging in the charger the apps show 0A current. Fast charger shows 3.08A... 74.6V (about what I was expecting)

I decided to try the charger with a current readout because the apps show my 16X drawing 0A of current and I know it's working. It's really strange because I always start with the wheel off and then plug the charger in and they have always showed negative current when charging.

I must be measuring the green and blue wires wrong, my probes don't fit in the little holes and I haven't bothered digging through all my collected electronics junk to find probes that'll fit, so I've been sticking a short piece of wire in the green and blue holes.

This is what the eWheels fast charger (set to 3A) reports... 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Tawpie

[enaon]

12 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

With the wheel off and on a stand, plugging in the charger the apps show 0A current. Fast charger shows 3.08A... 74.6V (about what I was expecting)

 

nice,  have tried all combinations I can think off, I cannot replicate no amps reporting, but for sure I have seen it in the past and it was reproduceable, cant remember the case.
Just to verify, you do get voltage and temp reading, they do change a bit, it is only amps that seems off,  correct? . 

Edited September 19, 2022 by enaon

[Tawpie]

33 minutes ago, enaon said:

Just to verify, you do get voltage and temp reading, they do change a bit, it is only amps that seems off,  correct? . 

That is correct... voltage varies, temperature lies (it's 8C low) but does go up very slowly. Amps are stuck at 0A, but power usage fluctuates (all positive).

To add to the confusion, I went out to check the 16X and lo and behold, it's now reporting negative current to EUCWorld. It wasn't doing that an hour ago.

SOFTWARE!!!!!

Gonna let the S18 stay on the fast charger until it clears the 74V point where the 2.5A stock charger started blinking red/green and gradually went all green. Then will set it on the ground, power it up and see if the voltage drops a lot... if it does that then I'm pretty sure I have a broken nickel strip.

[Tawpie]

@enaon When the S18 (2.16) is powered up, then plugged into the charger, it reports current.

And now all this is feeling like a false alarm or warning because I let it charge to 75V, then turned if off, set it on the ground and powered back up. 74.6 on connection, then 74.3 after about a minute. So it's not losing lots of voltage. And the stock 2.5A charger continues to charge it... so I have an intermittent problem now, which is (to me) worse.

I guess what I'll do is see if a local battery builder will open the front two packs and do a visual inspection. It's always possible I have broken welds or something that can be repaired economically, but my eyes haven't been trained on that level of detail.

eWheels is shipping Molicel upgrades to me on Monday, I didn't want to spend the money on that but this little incident pushed me over the line. Now that I have an extra set of cases and BMSs, perhaps I'll have the existing packs rebuilt when the 50S's price gets reasonable. Or... if the winter turns out to have days upon days of rain, attempt an @enaon XL battery mod.

[ffontana]

11 hours ago, Tawpie said:

@enaon When the S18 (2.16) is powered up, then plugged into the charger, it reports current.

And now all this is feeling like a false alarm or warning because I let it charge to 75V, then turned if off, set it on the ground and powered back up. 74.6 on connection, then 74.3 after about a minute. So it's not losing lots of voltage. And the stock 2.5A charger continues to charge it... so I have an intermittent problem now, which is (to me) worse.

I guess what I'll do is see if a local battery builder will open the front two packs and do a visual inspection. It's always possible I have broken welds or something that can be repaired economically, but my eyes haven't been trained on that level of detail.

eWheels is shipping Molicel upgrades to me on Monday, I didn't want to spend the money on that but this little incident pushed me over the line. Now that I have an extra set of cases and BMSs, perhaps I'll have the existing packs rebuilt when the 50S's price gets reasonable. Or... if the winter turns out to have days upon days of rain, attempt an @enaon XL battery mod.

Broken nickel Stripes can be an intermittent failure as cells are sticked together.

Watch this video. Just a little bend and the cell connects and disconnects....

If you have a broken nickel stripe it can connect eventually but probably You're having sparks every time it gets connected...

 

 

 

[ffontana]

8 minutes ago, ffontana said:

Broken nickel Stripes can be an intermittent failure as cells are sticked together.

Watch this video. Just a little bend and the cell connects and disconnects....

If you have a broken nickel stripe it can connect eventually but probably You're having sparks every time it gets connected...

 

 

 

11 hours ago, Tawpie said:

@enaon When the S18 (2.16) is powered up, then plugged into the charger, it reports current.

And now all this is feeling like a false alarm or warning because I let it charge to 75V, then turned if off, set it on the ground and powered back up. 74.6 on connection, then 74.3 after about a minute. So it's not losing lots of voltage. And the stock 2.5A charger continues to charge it... so I have an intermittent problem now, which is (to me) worse.

I guess what I'll do is see if a local battery builder will open the front two packs and do a visual inspection. It's always possible I have broken welds or something that can be repaired economically, but my eyes haven't been trained on that level of detail.

eWheels is shipping Molicel upgrades to me on Monday, I didn't want to spend the money on that but this little incident pushed me over the line. Now that I have an extra set of cases and BMSs, perhaps I'll have the existing packs rebuilt when the 50S's price gets reasonable. Or... if the winter turns out to have days upon days of rain, attempt an @enaon XL battery mod.

Broken nickel Stripes can be an intermittent failure as cells are sticked together.

Watch this video. Just a little bend and the cell connects and disconnects....

If you have a broken nickel stripe it can connect eventually but probably You're having sparks every time it gets connected...

 

Check this cell I removed from an s18. Completely discharged (0v!), Intermittent contacts and finally short circuit. The wheel was still working well but mileage was reduced drastically. 

Was lucky it didn't get fire.

 

0amps also reading on this wheel while battery broken. Good readings after repair.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by ffontana

[enaon]

nice info. I have too seen both nickel stipe and smd damage due to side fall, both explain the problem. 

[ffontana]

35 minutes ago, enaon said:

nice info. I have too seen both nickel stipe and smd damage due to side fall, both explain the problem. 

Broken nickel Stripes are due to vibration of the cells inside the pack. Now I have all my cells glued together to avoid vibrations.

I have Side indents in all my batteries and I don't think affect the circuitry as you can remove the battery pack from the cover without effort (of course, bigger indents could affect)

Edited September 19, 2022 by ffontana

[ffontana]

I have 3 s18 at home and 3 broken nickel Stripes incidents... 

Not a good design the plastic cover inside the aluminium case. 

Retractil cover inside aluminium case would have been better.