King Song S18 Discussion

[enaon]

11 minutes ago, Ksmack said:

For me as long as the inner bolts are really tight that has been sufficient. I agree shimming it’s filing is better, but I had a really hard time finding the right shim combination that worked with the tire alignment. I did end up adjusting it with shims a bit so I only need to keep one of the 8 bolts not completely snug. Every two weeks or so I check that the bolts are still tight (easy to do just by sitting on the wheel and using a stubby Allen key). 
 

I’m tempted by the v2 hollow motor upgrade. It seems like that will solve these annoying alignment issues. 

I agree that is a painfull process, the good part is that once you find the issue, you can use a filer instead  and fix the problem permanently. 

having it loose will allow for smooth glide, but under pressure, on turns etc, it will stuch it self, I think you will notice some instability, at least that those my fndings. But I agree that is is a good solution nevertheless. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by enaon

[enaon]

16 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Is there a torque spec or recommendation for the axel bolts? I have a thing about torquing bolts that keep important parts on...

I do not know either, I use experience for this, but cannot put it to numbers. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by enaon

[Ksmack]

18 minutes ago, enaon said:

I agree that is a painfull process, the good part is that once you find the issue, you can use a filer instead  and fix the problem permanently.

I’d love to understand how you did this. I saw your post with pictures, but am confused about what exactly you filed and where. From the photos I couldn’t tell what surfaces you were finishing. Next time I take the wheel apart I might try this. 

[enaon]

8 minutes ago, Ksmack said:

I’d love to understand how you did this. I saw your post with pictures, but am confused about what exactly you filed and where. From the photos I couldn’t tell what surfaces you were finishing. Next time I take the wheel apart I might try this. 

the way you describe it seem like the standard issue, the inner gap, where the axle fits, is not wide enough, the axle is touching the side walls sooner than it should on the inner part. You can verify this by thing to fit an 0.2 mm shim in the axle-top of holder gap, if it goes in, then you should file the sidewalls of the holder. 

the shims solution it to place them on the outer side, so as when you fully tighten the outer bolts, they will use the shims and will not cause tension on the sliders. It is as good I think, just that filing is more like a solution rather than a fix. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by enaon

[Ksmack]

9 minutes ago, enaon said:

the way you describe it seem like the standard issue, the inner gap, where the axle fits, is not wide enough, the axle is touching the side walls sooner than it should on the inner part. You can verify this by thing to fit an 0.2 mm shim in the axle-top of holder gap, if it goes in, then you should file the sidewalls of the holder. 

Thanks! That helps. Do you file both sidewalls symmetrically? Do you need to file the left and right side axle holder or just the one on the cable side?

[enaon]

11 minutes ago, Ksmack said:

Thanks! That helps. Do you file both sidewalls symmetrically? Do you need to file the left and right side axle holder or just the one on the cable side?

not all s18's are the excact same, this is why I call it painfull, and shiming is best at start to figure out the problem. In my case, I had to file both sides, mainly the one without the motor cable, but then again even my axle is different, it has the cable gap on the side, not on the bottom/top.

maybe try putting some paste in the axle and fully tighten it, then remove the wheel and check if and where the paste is still there, this will help you understand what part is not touching the holder. 
 

Edited September 23, 2022 by enaon

[Ksmack]

8 minutes ago, enaon said:

not all s18's are the excact same, this is why I call it painfull, and shiming is best at start to figure out the problem. In my case, I had to file both sides, mainly the one without the motor cable, but then again even my axle is different, it has the cable gap on the side, not on the bottom/top.
 

I found I only need to shim the motor cable side, so maybe I’ll start there. Just to be clear, it it the aluminum block at the bottom that needs to be filed, or is it the part at the top? I guess it has to be the top part as that would affect the alignment of the sliders and is why the shim goes there. 
 

So it is not this part: https://www.euco.us/collections/king-song-s18-parts-online-listing/products/ks-s18-motor-clamp-piece

[enaon]

22 minutes ago, Ksmack said:

it it the aluminum block at the bottom that needs to be filed, or is it the part at the top?

the top part, the sliders, was always the cause of the problem as far as I have seen, the bottom clamps are grabbing the axle fine. 

[Tawpie]

3 hours ago, Ksmack said:

I saw your post with pictures

Lordy, I can't find that... a link would be very nice!

[fbhb]

4 hours ago, Ksmack said:

I saw your post with pictures

 

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

Lordy, I can't find that... a link would be very nice!

@Ksmack and @Tawpie, I can help you both out with the photos I took when carrying out my method of what @enaon has been describing in his posts above.

He is spot on with what needs to be done to get the sliders moving freely, by correcting the inconsistencies of the slider axle mount, but also the poorly machined axle itself (the axle has a taper towards the outer edge, which adds to the clamping/binding issue!).

I had to hand file the axle mount area of the sliders to align them and have the axle sit perfectly true/square, but still needed to make a shim to allow clamping ALL 8 bolts FULLY (loose bolts here is a recipe for disaster IMHO!)

If you give me a little time, I will collate a photo description of what I needed to do to get a correctly working/stiction free slider action with ALL 8 bolts clamped down as tight as I could achieve with the correct size Allen key (obviously torque numbers would be ideal here if we knew what the recommended specs were?)

Just allow me some time, and I'll reply in detail to this post sometime later today.

Edited September 23, 2022 by fbhb

[fbhb]

5 hours ago, fbhb said:

@Ksmack and @Tawpie, I can help you both out with the photos I took when carrying out my method of what @enaon has been describing in his posts above.

Hey guys, I had photos still on my phone from when I worked on the S18 many months ago I had been meaning specifically to add to my Suspension Overhaul topic, so this turned into a good opportunity to sit down and make time to kill 2 birds with one stone.

I have just now finished writing the edit into the Suspension Overhaul topic and have quoted just the edited/additional 24/09/2022 part below, so hopefully it will answer/help you guys with queries mentioned in several posts made here.

 

"Edited on 24/09/2022:

This is an update I have been meaning to add to this overhaul topic for some time now, since upgrading to the well renowned IRC TR-1 knobby tyre many months ago.

Whilst the S18 was stripped for the tyre change, I took the opportunity to work further on the slider alignment (discussed/described earlier) to completely eliminate the issue of binding when clamping the 8 axle bolts securely and I'd hoped to ALSO be doing away with the need for any shims. 

IMHO, these 8 bolts need to be clamped/torqued tightly despite many having found they need to tighten them to varying amounts to prevent the sliders locking/binding!

Although I had previously mentioned this in my initial strip down findings and achieved a vast improvement, I was more than happy with at that time, further work was still needed to correct another issue I believe is also in part responsible for the sliders binding during clamping the 8 bolts tightly.

 

Above are 2 of the original photos of the Fully stripped S18, showing how far out of alignment the sliders were to each other using a square for measuring purposes. At that point I did hand file as much as I could to reduce the gap seen here and fitted a shim/shims I made to compensate for the rest of the discrepancy!

 

So back to my more recent tyre swap improvements, I carried on with the work to get both axle mount points of the sliders square and perfectly in line by hand filing the rest of the material remaining, as shown above.

This whole process, especially if starting from scratch needs for you to use something like Engineers Blue (or some kind of paste if not available) and also feeler gauges to assess where any high spots are, and material needs to be removed from.

You need to pay particular attention to make sure the axle is still a snug fit in the recesses, periodically checking as you file them deeper (but definitely do NOT allow them to become any wider!)

The cast steel sliders are pretty roughly shaped to accommodate the axle, with more than likely ONLY one side machined by King Song from the factory, although even that token attempt does Not go anywhere near enough to guaranteeing accurate slider alignment.

You will need to work very patiently and carefully to correct this if carrying it out with a hand file.

This is after spending much time to hand file the slider's axle mount points to eliminate the gap shown on one side in the previous 2 photos when using a straight edge/square.

Again, but closer in for clarity/detail.

Here the photo shows both axle mounts after hand filing are now flat, in line and also square to the sliders/slider tubes.

Now having completed this part of the alignment process, there is an issue that I found with the axle itself needs to be addressed.

From my own experience having 2 S18 motors available for comparison, King Song incorrectly/inadvertently created a taper on the cable exit side of the motor's axle.

This taper in both cases for me, was found on the face of the axle that clamps to the slider which has the unwanted effect of both causing the motor to sit out of square in the wheel assembly (i.e. your tyre will be offset to one side and rub) but more importantly at this stage, causes the sliders to lock up or bind during bolting down the 8 axle bolts!   

I have used a white background taped to the motor to try and show the taper as best as possible.

Possibly a better view

So, in order to overcome this additional King Song manufacturing error, I have unfortunately still had to use a shim even though my slider mounts are now perfectly flat, square and aligned with each other. Due to the nature of the taper being towards the very outer edge of the axle at the cable exit end, I made a shim with a specific shape and dimensions/thickness to accommodate the discrepancy specific to my S18.

This will be a trial-and-error process to find the thickness and depth to which you will need your shim to fit under just the very end portion of the axle. As it is the cable end that needs to have the shim fitted, I shaped my shim to wrap around the slider casting very snugly to help locate it exactly where it needed to sit and more importantly prevent having any sharp edge near to the motor cable.

The shim hooks/clips snugly into this recess to keep it in place until firmly clamped by the axle bolts.

Shim sitting correctly in place, to allow for the incorrectly tapered portion of the axle.

For reference, I used some .5mm thick stainless steel sheet to make my shim YMMV.

Once this point has been reached, whereby both slider's axle mounts are square to the tubes, in line with one another and the shim has been fabricated the motor needs to be fitted and FULLY clamped down with All 8 bolts.

With the shock either disconnected on one end or deflated and both air valves removed, lift the S18 up by the handle and observe whether the motor drops freely under its own weight with no hint of sticking points? It should now be effortless for the motor to glide up and down on the sliders with very little/no resistance At All.

If it still sticks/binds At All, more work is needed to identify where material needs to be removed/filed or corrections to your shim shape, thickness or dimensions may be necessary.

 

In conclusion for this additional work to get my S18 sliders completely stiction free, I can honestly say that the extra effort involved (although extremely lengthy) has paid off in what I can ONLY describe as a buttery smooth suspension action!

Added to that there is also NO unwanted risk now of the motor bolts vibrating loose from being partially tightened as some owners have been forced to do by the inaccuracies described.

Some S18 owners will also undoubtedly be over pumping the air pressure in the shock just to overcome stiction issues, be it in what has been described in the additional work here or even the other issues found elsewhere earlier in this topic.

The S18 can be corrected to a very high level of suspension performance, but it is a lot of work we as owners should not have to embark upon!

ALL EUC MANUFACTURER'S PLEASE TAKE NOTE"

Edited September 24, 2022 by fbhb

[enaon]

A bit off topic, just saw that the first gen s18, the ones with the stm processors, now accept firmware 2.16, I finally have microbalance  mode on the handle 

Edited September 24, 2022 by enaon

[Ksmack]

Just found a new video someone took on YouTube of the second gen hollow motor and aluminum slider design. It looks like the pedal hangers might be updated as well?

 

 

[NErider]

Is it a characteristic of the S18 to pedal dip if accelerating up an incline at speed? I've had mine for almost two years now. We recently paved a "steep" driveway on a farm and I was going too fast up it apparently and I think it dipped forward, dumping me off, and grinding my knees and forearms up pretty bad. I was "only doing barn check" so I didn't have any gear on and was definitely going too fast. But is this a thing when accelerating up a hill? Or maybe I over torqued it and go a cut out? 

Still awaiting ewheels S22...

[Tawpie]

Ouch. I hope you're ok.

The S18's 3P configuration is notorious for being 'easy' to over torque, from your description that's likely what happened. Do you know what your battery percentage was?

[NErider]

10 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Ouch. I hope you're ok.

The S18's 3P configuration is notorious for being 'easy' to over torque, from your description that's likely what happened. Do you know what your battery percentage was?

More than 90% at the time. It was fully charged, and then just rolled around the farm during that day. 

It's a good reminder that every place that I am currently scabbed up and bleeding from are the exact spots that my safety gear would have covered if I had it on. 

The majority of my riding is off road so I'm rarely going at or near 20mph unless I am on smooth flat ground. I think speeding up the smooth hill is what did me in. It happen fast, but I remember it felt like the pedals just dipped out in front of me as if the wheel was shutting down. "Overtorqued" is probably what happened. 

[enaon]

11 hours ago, NErider said:

and was definitely going too fast. But is this a thing when accelerating up a hill?

it will make 3 beeps, if you ignore it, it will tilt front to help you continue on foot. 

[OldFartRides]

@fbhb 

Excellent ! This is such a difficult subject to elaborate on. Thank you for making the effort.

[Wrd]

23 hours ago, Ksmack said:

Just found a new video someone took on YouTube of the second gen hollow motor and aluminum slider design. It looks like the pedal hangers might be updated as well?

Right; that looks like the V2 that ecodrift posted about: https://ecodrift-ru.translate.goog/2022/09/08/kingsong-s18-v2-nachalo/?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en

It’s not clear when that might be released by kingsong, but it almost appears that ecodrift was selling it. 

[fbhb]

12 hours ago, OldFartRides said:

@fbhb 

Excellent ! This is such a difficult subject to elaborate on. Thank you for making the effort.

@OldFartRides, not too much of a problem really as I had wanted to add that specific information to my original Full Overhaul thread anyway.

But thank you very much for the kind words, the positive feedback is always appreciated.

[NewB]

Anybody know what's up with the "late September" batch of S18s being sold by ewheels? The suspens(ion) is killing me!

Pun intended.

[sunstrong]

21 minutes ago, NewB said:

Anybody know what's up with the "late September" batch of S18s being sold by ewheels? The suspens(ion) is killing me!

Not ewheels but I just asked Eevees whether the new batch of S18s is the ones with the redesigned sliders/motor. They said yes. Might be worth reaching out to Ewheels to confirm as well.

If it is confirmed that the "molicel version" is indeed the one with this new slider design I'd actually want to upgrade my S18 to this one!

Edited September 28, 2022 by sunstrong

[enaon]

2 hours ago, sunstrong said:

I'd actually want to upgrade my S18 to this one!

drilling holes to the motor to place pins inside will be so much fun. 

[NewB]

5 hours ago, sunstrong said:

Not ewheels but I just asked Eevees whether the new batch of S18s is the ones with the redesigned sliders/motor. They said yes. Might be worth reaching out to Ewheels to confirm as well.

If it is confirmed that the "molicel version" is indeed the one with this new slider design I'd actually want to upgrade my S18 to this one!

I asked and will let you know what they say!

[Ksmack]

3 hours ago, enaon said:

drilling holes to the motor to place pins inside will be so much fun. 

Does the S18 even have enough torque to cause stator slippage? 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Ksmack