mike_bike_kite Posted March 11, 2020 Share Posted March 11, 2020 1 hour ago, alcatraz said: I wish the new wheels were all 100V or better even, 126V. Otherwise you'll be carrying so much copper in all the wires and coils it's insane. Is that because higher voltage requires less wire? I believe it's something like that with overhead power cables anyway. If higher voltages mean less copper, less weight presumably and higher torque then what are the downsides? Is there such a thing as voltage envy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 I wish I could answer that. I only know that for any given power the current drops when the voltage rises. P=U*I 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniVehje Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 Are the other 100V wheels that much lighter? I still haven’t seen any proof there are any other benefits from more voltage than higher rpm. If the wheel is capable of reaching the limited 55km/h speed at 84V, then it shouldn’t matter what the voltage is. Correct me if I’m wrong. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 If we were still on 36V like electric bicycles 10 years ago, a 2000w EUC would weigh a ton. Low current means thinner cables. Inside a motor there are hundreds and hundreds of meters. I'm just wondering if those copper windings are affected like the other cables. Electric car batteries are hundreds of volts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaveCut Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 On 3/11/2020 at 5:32 PM, mike_bike_kite said: higher torque Less wires = lower torque. Thats the downside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniVehje Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 11 hours ago, alcatraz said: If we were still on 36V like electric bicycles 10 years ago, a 2000w EUC would weigh a ton. Low current means thinner cables. Inside a motor there are hundreds and hundreds of meters. I'm just wondering if those copper windings are affected like the other cables. Electric car batteries are hundreds of volts. Z10 is 59V and doing fine. Electric cars are 100 times heavier and have to go 140 km/h using 17” wheels. The requirement for rpm is a bit different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, UniVehje said: Z10 is 59V and doing fine. Electric cars are 100 times heavier and have to go 140 km/h using 17” wheels. The requirement for rpm is a bit different. just a bit and they don't have to balance either... Edited March 12, 2020 by Unventor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planemo Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 1 hour ago, UniVehje said: Z10 is 59V and doing fine. It does indeed do fine for 59v, but the Z10 also weighs about as much as an 1860wh 84v MSX. Most of which is the consequence of the low voltage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phong Vu Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 Interesting Decided not ordering the 16X to see what do we have here. ( 16X 2020 batches is delay on delivery anyway ) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_bike_kite Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 13 hours ago, Planemo said: It does indeed do fine for 59v, but the Z10 also weighs about as much as an 1860wh 84v MSX. Most of which is the consequence of the low voltage. Wouldn't it be better to weigh just the wheel on a 100V MSX and the wheel on an 84V MSX to see what the difference is? It would also be fairly interesting to know how the battery weights compare between the newer 21700 type and the older 18650(?) type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planemo Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 6 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said: Wouldn't it be better to weigh just the wheel on a 100V MSX and the wheel on an 84V MSX to see what the difference is? It would also be fairly interesting to know how the battery weights compare between the newer 21700 type and the older 18650(?) type. Of course it would be better but do you have a loose Z10 and MSX wheel to hand to weigh for us? I believe the Z10 wheel, tyre and motor combo has been weighed before, by ECO drift I think. Don't know about the MSX, maybe ECO again as they do detailed stripdowns. From my experience, the Z10 wheel assembly is heavy for sure. The wheel rim itself is part of it (being wide and therefore quite thick to preserve strength) and the tyre is quite stout as well but the motor is the biggest culprit. That said it's an awesome wheel. But for it's Wh, it's heavy. I don't believe theres much difference in weight per wh between 21700 and 18650. Not enough to worry about for our use anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planemo Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 On 3/11/2020 at 2:32 PM, mike_bike_kite said: If higher voltages mean less copper, less weight presumably and higher torque then what are the downsides? I guess one thing that stands out is that to make voltage you need more cells in series which means less cells (or space available) for parallel. Part of the reason why the MSX 100v 1230wh was 'only' 4P instead of the 6P of the 84v MSX 1600wh. Arguably the 84v would have the ability to deliver more current due to being 6P, but then it needs more as well due to the lower voltage. It's a give and take situation. That said, the 4P of the 100v doesn't really struggle tbh. A really heavy rider might notice sag though, compared to the 84v. But an 84v will never go as fast as a 100v, whoever the rider. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said: It would also be fairly interesting to know how the battery weights compare between the newer 21700 type and the older 18650(?) type. A 18650 cell is about 50g, a 21700 about 70g. You can guess the battery weights from that if you know the cell count. E.g. an 84V "800Wh" 18650 pack (two of these make 1600Wh) is 20s3p = 60 cells = ~3kg, and a 100V "900Wh" 21700 pack (two of these make 1800Wh) is 24s2p = 48 cells = 3.36kg. Doing the math, this is 255Wh/kg for the 18650 pack and 264Wh/kg for the 21700 pack. - To stay a bit on topic, I expect this new Inmotion wheel to be 84V as usual (not sure why, just a hunch). But maybe we get a nice 100V surprise (not sure how necessary or beneficial this would for this wheel, so it may not make sense). I also wonder what type of cells they will use. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Mckowen Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 You are all wrong Spy shot from IM secret test location: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 On 3/13/2020 at 10:40 AM, meepmeepmayer said: To stay a bit on topic, I expect this new Inmotion wheel to be 84V as usual (not sure why, just a hunch). But maybe we get a nice 100V surprise (not sure how necessary or beneficial this would for this wheel, so it may not make sense). I also wonder what type of cells they will use. I think too much hype about cell size with the wish for higher voltage seems to take a lot of focus. Whether it has an effect on product is much less information on from the manufactor. There are many things to consider choosing a battery configuration. And part of that is cell behaviour. You might get more power density, at a risk of higher temperature or different charging/discharging properties. I am not an expert on these things as. But I would like to see facts rather than hype or marketing sheets with numbers manipulated into making thing seem like an improvement. In short when getting an advantage it often comes hand in hand with a disadvantage.... That said I too look forward to what Inmotion have cooked up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planemo Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Unventor said: I think too much hype about cell size with the wish for higher voltage seems to take a lot of focus. I would tend to agree, were it not for the apparent fact that many riders do seem to ride near their max alarm/tiltback limit. Going higher voltage raises the headroom and as has been said before, doesn't mean you have to ride faster. It just gives you more of a 'feelgood' factor knowing that your wheel is nowhere near the limits and therefore much safer should you hit an unseen dip etc. If everyone rode at say half the alarm limit, I would totally agree with you. I do however accept that the temptation to simply ride faster if the wheel allows, and therefore be back to square one, does make my point seem moot 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 On 3/12/2020 at 6:06 AM, alcatraz said: If we were still on 36V like electric bicycles... It is confusing why an 84v EUC battery is 20 cells in series, but when bicycle batteries are discussed they use nominal voltages such that 36v is 10 cells in series ... in EUC terms that is 42v. Its all just a bit mixed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planemo Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 It is a bit weird I grant you. In EUC terms they use max cell voltage to calculate the voltage, but use nominal to calculate the capacity. I have a '36v' ebike battery and it does indeed show 42v as expected when fully charged so I don't know why the cycling guys don't just use 4.2v per cell like everyone else! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 4 hours ago, Planemo said: It is a bit weird I grant you. In EUC terms they use max cell voltage to calculate the voltage, but use nominal to calculate the capacity. I have a '36v' ebike battery and it does indeed show 42v as expected when fully charged so I don't know why the cycling guys don't just use 4.2v per cell like everyone else! It might have to do with regulations and laws. And that there are standards they have to comply to, to be road legal. And how you calculate effect. In most EU countries there are something you can and cannot do. Where it seems in the US there isn't such laws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mrelwood Posted March 17, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 17, 2020 The 18650 Li-ion cell has a nominal voltage rating of 3.6-3.7V, so it is understandable that the rating is being used. I find the nominal voltage of much less importance, since the max voltage has to be precisely limited and the low end doesn’t matter much at all since the voltage drop of an empty cell makes the value meaningless. Regarding speed, Inmotion has mentioned aiming for something like 56km/h, and I’m absolutely sure that it will be limited by a non-removable tilt-back. Considering how the 84V MSX has no problem running 56km/h on a full battery, Inmotion should have no problem tuning the motor to have sufficient headroom at max speed. That’s why I’m not expecting it to be a 100V wheel. But I’m also sure that they have at least considered the possibility. My wait for this wheel is becoming rather eager. What we know so far makes the V12/V15 a perfect successor to my MSX. Easily enough speed, more range, wide tire, aggressive power delivery (for an Inmotion), and the suspension that I’ve been DIYing towards for over 2 years already. Every bit of info we’ve gotten has left less and less possibilities of them screwing up me becoming an Inmotion owner and rider. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meserias Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 then we need to see how will stand against the MSP / KS18XL 2nd batch / Nik+ 2nd batch / 16X 2nd batch also we will need to wait until first tests are done .... I'm very curious about this new wheel from InMotion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBIKER_SURFER Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 I don't mind what Inmotion will bring up. No Inmotion anymore after V10 F experience with firmware fixes, which were promised - but never done. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mrelwood Posted March 17, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 17, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, MBIKER_SURFER said: No Inmotion anymore after V10 F experience with firmware fixes, which were promised - but never done. You should be happy with Gotway then, zero issues with firmware updates or promises! Edited March 17, 2020 by mrelwood 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 2 hours ago, mrelwood said: You should be happy with Gotway then, zero issues with firmware updates or promises! I agree that you look for top speed and being able ride on the very edge of limitation Gotway is the only way to go. I just don't need that at all. Yes I am heavier than Chinees reference rider, but I am still only 80kg or 90-95kg with gear and full backpack. I ride my wheels like I use my car. Never aggressive acceleration nor super speeding. This relate to average ruuliding speed of 30ish warnings at 35 and tiltback setting at 40kmh. I live where we have hills and mountains but we don't have super high California temperatures. So I have yet to have any issues with my V10f in this overheating regard. Actually I like the way it behaves in comfort mode. It feels more dynamic and how it reacts helps me to feel the speed I ride more. The feel is different to my KS wheels and very different to what GW users in general like. I am however stoked about the new Inmotion wheels. When we see actual wheels in user hands or feet, that is the real test as paper numbers matter very little to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBIKER_SURFER Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 7 hours ago, mrelwood said: You should be happy with Gotway then, zero issues with firmware updates or promises! My Nikola don't need any FW update so far. Everything works like it should 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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