Wuhan Coronavirus - are you prepared?

[someguy152]

y'all need to stop using the word proof and prove, those words only exist axiomatically...you don't prove stuff in science, only collect evidence by testing ur null hypothesis against an alternative hypothesis time and time again, but any one day a black swan event can happen and you have to modify or totally get rid of ur prevalent theory.

science is about inquiring about the stuff that disproves the prevalent hypothesis, and after investigating its claims, if it's not up to snuff, then ur prevalent theory becomes stronger with more evidence, but NEVER proven.

[Toshio Uemura]

5 hours ago, RenaissanceMan said:

I cannot come up with a sensible explanation for an intentional outbreak, except that some cynics might smell a chance to get rid of the problem of over-aging demographics, drained state pension funds and bankrupt health insurance systems. For such a Darwinian, inescapable purge of society (people and businesses) to work one could not have the epidemic stopped too early (UK and US were actively delaying the spread, just to name two of them). But all that seems too farfetched, like in a bad movie or Sci-Fi thriller. Although, I cannot think of anybody else benefiting more from this crisis on a larger, world wide scale.

On a different note, I noticed with alarm there are younger folks on youtube who advocate a world without old and sick people (eg. documented in: The Morons Of Coronavirus, E. Klein, at 5:15 and 6:15).

If China wanted to hurt Europe or other countries, they wouldn’t need a nuclear bomb or even develop a bio weapon to create an intentional outbreak, they just had to stop supplying the rest of the world with antibiotics and other essential drugs many western countries desperately depend on. This would diminish a large part of the older population in those countries within a few years. And nobody could even blame China. They just had to whisper two magic words: “China first!” 
So I agree with you. A conspiracy to kill off the old is rather far fetched. 

[Toshio Uemura]

 

[LanghamP]

On 3/26/2020 at 8:27 AM, travsformation said:

Nice try

 

Again, Chinese aren't able to count.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/urn-deliveries-wuhan-china-coronavirus-death-toll

China has reported 3,299 coronavirus-related deaths, with most taking place in Wuhan, the epicenter of the global pandemic. But one funeral home received two shipments of 5,000 urns over the course of two days, according to the Chinese media outlet Caixin.

[Gasmantle]

I'm not for one minute saying the pandemic is a man made deliberate act but it has given governments across the globe a convenient excuse to curb public freedom and monitor the activities of citizens.

My guess is that when this crisis is over public freedom will never quite return to pre Covid levels.

[travsformation]

19 hours ago, RenaissanceMan said:

I cannot come up with a sensible explanation for an intentional outbreak, except that some cynics might smell a chance to get rid of the problem of over-aging demographics, drained state pension funds and bankrupt health insurance systems. For such a Darwinian, inescapable purge of society (people and businesses) to work one could not have the epidemic stopped too early (UK and US were actively delaying the spread, just to name two of them). But all that seems too farfetched, like in a bad movie or Sci-Fi thriller. Although, I cannot think of anybody else benefiting more from this crisis on a larger, world wide scale.

Sadly, with the despots and sociopaths that govern us, I'd hardly be surprised by anything at this point...

But all the same, man-made or not, pre-meditated or not, the Fortune 500 companies always find a way to benefit from tragedies, whether they're wars, uprisings, coups, pandemics, financial crises...

The temporary austerity measures put in place in the 2008 financial crisis were never reverted, workers' rights were cut, basic public services saw their funding drastically reduced, the inequality gap widened dramatically...or from the corporate perspective, fewer regulations, lower wages, more private contracts for ex-public services (think ICE), etc., etc., etc. It's been 12 years since 2008...I've actually been feeling for a while that the next crisis was overdue and wondering what form it would take. It's enough to at least make one wonder if those that have so much to gain might not be inclined to trigger one themselves. But that's just an open-ended question I sometimes wonder about when I have nothing better to do (such as on day 14 of a lockdown)

But without going for anything quite so far-fetched, perhaps some knew this was coming (or underway) and refrained from sharing the information with the public....

[Toshio Uemura]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

Again, Chinese aren't able to count

It’s naive (if not insulting!) to believe or state that Chinese are not able to count. They are very able! But people in charge, who know the real numbers, may have chosen or may have been ordered to keep the results of their counts under lock and key. And I am sure there are other nations (or in your vocabulary: other „Chinese“) who also „aren’t able to count!“ Below just two examples:

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2020 by Toshio Uemura

[travsformation]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

Again, Chinese aren't able to count.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/urn-deliveries-wuhan-china-coronavirus-death-toll

China has reported 3,299 coronavirus-related deaths, with most taking place in Wuhan, the epicenter of the global pandemic. But one funeral home received two shipments of 5,000 urns over the course of two days, according to the Chinese media outlet Caixin.

I don't think anyone in this forum takes Chinese figures at face value: domestically, party/regime loyalty is a factor that can't be overlooked, and internationally, the financial war with the US certainly doesn't encourage transparency either...

But circling back to my original point, several pages back, and because I think it's an important consideration in terms of the current situation, and in the benefit of constructive discussion (as opposed to contradiction as an end rather than a means), I think there's a common global denominator that we could call anything from short-sightedness to (criminal) negligence in terms of governmental measures being taken worldwide. China concealed data, delayed its release, and put its own citizens, and the rest of the world, in danger. But once we can get passed that, said data was mainly relevant to the places that were first hit after China. Spain had Italy's figures to go by, but was still late to act. Now we're no. 2 on the global death toll. When the lockdown was implemented here, France and Germany had yet to take measures, and they had Italy and Spain's figures to go by. The UK had Italy, Spain, France and Germany's, and still took a very lax approach...And the US has access to all of the aforementioned and still isn't following the advice of the global medical community.

Just to be clear, I'm not criticizing the US. I'm criticizing governments, worldwide, for failing to protect their citizens. When I criticize the French or American government, I'm not attacking the people, and I'm being equally judgemental about my own government. When negligence, incompetence or financial interests cost human lives, I find it hard to stomach. Just like the pandemic, the government-corporate-financial phenomenon is just as global and follows the same trend wherever you look.

The only countries where the curve has been flattened are the ones where citizens are socially responsible despite their government's inaction (Japan, for instance), or countries where the government acted swiftly (South Korea, which had tested 8,000 people before the first positive showed up on the radar).

Spain, unfortunately, isn't one of those countries. It's been two weeks since the lockdown was put in place (and is enforced), and confirmed cases and deaths alike have continued to grow exponentially because the measures came too late. My suggestion is that if one's country hasn't yet been hit hard, and measures aren't being taken, look at Italy and Spain as fore-bearers of what may be to come (depending on your country's healthcare system, available hospital beds, respirators, etc.).

Self-quarantene even if you aren't required to and urge your loved ones to do the same. Don't panic, but take precautions. Listen to doctors and scientists, not to politicians. I share this advice because I think it would be ethically and socially irresponsible not to...

 

[LanghamP]

25 minutes ago, Toshio Uemura said:

naive (if not insulting!) to believe or state that Chinese are not able to count. They are very able! But people in charge, who know the real numbers, may have chosen or may have been ordered to keep the results of their counts under lock and key. And I am sure there are other nations (or in your vocabulary: other „Chinese“) who also „aren’t able to count!“ Below just two examples

While the below examples are of people also unable to count, their country's media and their scientific institutions seem able to count.

However, from top to bottom, Chinese seem unable to correctly count. It's bizarre, since the Chinese put so much effort into beating up and jailing reporters and doctors who are counting.

I just have no idea why Chinese can't count. They do so well in SAT and other standardized testing.

[Gasmantle]

I forget who it was that said 'believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see'.

The quote seems very apt in these days of corrupt politicians and dubious media reporting.

[jojo33]

On 3/27/2020 at 6:53 PM, jojo33 said:

AFNOR CERTIFICATION edit a guide for making a barrier mask (if you can fix a EUC, you are able to make your masks yourself  ) :

"27 Mar 2020 Covid-19: a reference document for manufacturing barrier masks

On March 27, 2020, AFNOR offers a repository to download free of charge for the manufacture of a new mask model, known as a “barrier mask”. This aims to protect the healthy population, in addition to the essential barrier gestures faced with the pandemic caused by the coronavirus.

Spring 2020, Covid-A9 pandemic: the shortage of surgical masks and FFP2 encourages companies, artisans and even individuals to urgently make protective masks, with great reinforcement of tutorials and sewing patterns. In front of this anthology of advice and models with heterogeneous and sometimes dubious qualities, AFNOR makes available a reference document proposing requirements to be satisfied to manufacture these masks. This is the document AFNOR Spec - Barrier masks , accessible free of charge in its version 1.0 (in French and in English), the fruit of a leading collective expertise conducted in five days......."

https://translate.google.fr/translate?hl=fr&tab=rT1&sl=fr&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fnormalisation.afnor.org%2Factualites%2Fcovid-19-un-document-de-reference-pour-fabriquer-des-masques-barrieres%2F

Dear friends
I just received the two pdf documents to make a reusable barrier mask yourself, it is intended for both individuals and businesses who want to manufacture the masks
it is only in french
The good news is:  

In response to the coronavirus epidemic, the European Committee for Standardization (CEN) and the European Committee for Electrotechnical Standardization (CENELEC) have made freely accessible a series of European standards applying to the medical equipment and the personal protection equipment used to face the COVID-19 pandemic. The 11 standards in question, developed by experts from all over Europe, cover the different kinds of masks, medical gloves and protective clothing. They can be freely downloaded from each countries website

 Free access to these European standards will facilitate the work of numerous companies that are restructuring their production chains to quickly provide equipment to healthcare professionals and patients.

https://www.cencenelec.eu/News/Press_Releases/Pages/PR-2020-003.aspx

and below, the list of all the sites by country which offer manufacturing guides in your own language, I checked for example on the spain site and there is the possibility of downloading for free (look on the page for the link concerning the coronavirus) look spain exemple https://www.une.org/la-asociacion/sala-de-informacion-une/noticias/une-facilita-el-acceso-gratuito-a-sus-normas-para-la-fabricacion-de-material-contra-el-coronavirus

WARNING: I have been looking for certain countries, they have not yet published on their websites

https://standards.cen.eu/dyn/www/f?p=CENWEB:5:::NO:::

CEN Members

Acronym	Country	Organization	Website
ASI	Austria	Austrian Standards International - Standardization and Innovation	www.austrian-standards.at
NBN	Belgium	Bureau de Normalisation/Bureau voor Normalisatie	www.nbn.be
BDS	Bulgaria	Bulgarian Institute for Standardization	www.bds-bg.org
HZN	Croatia	Croatian Standards Institute	www.hzn.hr
CYS	Cyprus	Cyprus Organization for Standardisation	www.cys.org.cy
UNMZ	Czech Republic	Czech Office for Standards, Metrology and Testing	www.unmz.cz
DS	Denmark	Dansk Standard	www.ds.dk
EVS	Estonia	Estonian Centre for Standardisation	www.evs.ee
SFS	Finland	Suomen Standardisoimisliitto r.y.	www.sfs.fi
AFNOR	France	Association Française de Normalisation	www.afnor.org
DIN	Germany	Deutsches Institut für Normung	www.din.de
NQIS/ELOT	Greece	National Quality Infrastructure System	www.elot.gr
MSZT	Hungary	Hungarian Standards Institution	www.mszt.hu
IST	Iceland	Icelandic Standards	www.stadlar.is
NSAI	Ireland	National Standards Authority of Ireland	www.nsai.ie
UNI	Italy	Ente Nazionale Italiano di Unificazione	www.uni.com
LVS	Latvia	Latvian Standard Ltd.	www.lvs.lv
LST	Lithuania	Lithuanian Standards Board	www.lsd.lt
ILNAS	Luxembourg	Organisme Luxembourgeois de Normalisation	www.portail-qualite.lu
MCCAA	Malta	The Malta Competition and Consumer Affairs Authority	https://www.mccaa.org.mt/
NEN	Netherlands	Nederlands Normalisatie-instituut	www.nen.nl
SN	Norway	Standards Norway	www.standard.no/
PKN	Poland	Polish Committee for Standardization	www.pkn.pl
IPQ	Portugal	Instituto Português da Qualidade	http://www1.ipq.pt/
ISRSM	Republic of North Macedonia	Standardization Institute of the Republic of North Macedonia	www.isrm.gov.mk
ASRO	Romania	Romanian Standards Association	www.asro.ro
ISS	Serbia	Institute for Standardization of Serbia	www.iss.rs
UNMS SR	Slovakia	Slovak Office of Standards Metrology and Testing	www.unms.sk
SIST	Slovenia	Slovenian Institute for Standardization	www.sist.si
UNE	Spain	Asociación Española de Normalización	www.une.org
SIS	Sweden	Swedish Institute for Standards - SIS	www.sis.se
SNV	Switzerland	Schweizerische Normen-Vereinigung	www.snv.ch
TSE	Turkey	Turkish Standards Institution	www.tse.org.tr
BSI	United Kingdom	British Standards Institution	www.bsigroup.com

Good luck, ganbatte ! Mucho animo ! Bon courage

joris

[RenaissanceMan]

16 hours ago, Toshio Uemura said:

If China wanted to hurt Europe or other countries, they wouldn’t need a nuclear bomb or even develop a bio weapon to create an intentional outbreak, they just had to stop supplying the rest of the world with antibiotics and other essential drugs many western countries desperately depend on. This would diminish a large part of the older population in those countries within a few years. And nobody could even blame China. They just had to whisper two magic words: “China first!” 
So I agree with you. A conspiracy to kill off the old is rather far fetched. 

I never said or implied China to be the aggressor.

[Toshio Uemura]

It is interesting to look at live Webcams in major cities around the world. Even Iran has them. Here is Tokyo right now:

At least the EUCs folks are staying put. Or is it the rain?

 

[tenofnine]

On 3/27/2020 at 11:04 PM, someguy152 said:

y'all need to stop using the word proof and prove, those words only exist axiomatically...you don't prove stuff in science, only collect evidence by testing ur null hypothesis against an alternative hypothesis time and time again, but any one day a black swan event can happen and you have to modify or totally get rid of ur prevalent theory.

science is about inquiring about the stuff that disproves the prevalent hypothesis, and after investigating its claims, if it's not up to snuff, then ur prevalent theory becomes stronger with more evidence, but NEVER proven.

So I really like the word "axiom" and it's adjective form "axiomatic", but I have never seen anyone use the adverb form.....

Does it make sense here? I'm confused about the way you used it. It's tantamount to saying "obviously" or "automatically" is it not?

Isn't axiomatically just a more severe adverb for something that is known to already be true by a large majority (self-evident, unquestionable)? Seems redundant /misplaced or maybe I'm missing something completely. Sorry don't mean to nit-pick, was just curious about it's usage here....maybe it's a chance for me to learn something.

Edited March 29, 2020 by tenofnine

[Toshio Uemura]

Important 
Here is one of the most profound interviews on this pandemic that I have seen so far on the internet.

it is an interview with a leading South Korean doctor and virologist, who is fighting the outbreak. He gives answers to many questions such as the effectiveness of wearing masks 😷 and he gives various scenarios on when and how all this may or may not end.

Those of you, who have not seen this, please watch it to the end it contains very compelling and fact based information.

 

Please share this with other people, if you consider it worth sharing.

Thank you!

[Toshio Uemura]

And here is a quite realistic impression of the awareness in Japan. I can confirm these images. They also reflect the reality here in the countryside and in smaller cities.

 

[tenofnine]

Great videos, been following coverage but haven't kept up with these specific YT vids.

I found it weird that the pandemic expert in the TEDx talk sort of jokingly advised not to wear masks if you aren't sick.

I would agree that you shouldn't be potentially causing a shortage by  buying the appropriate field mask that is rated to block out virus aerosol (high PPM effectiveness and medical field certified)....

but even just a construction dust mask or simple face wrap can prevent you from the habit of touching your mouth or nose, which could keep you from contracting the virus and becoming part of the problem. AND besides that how do you know if you have it or have already gotten over it but you are still contagious.....if you show no signs but cough or sneeze then you just spread the virus unknowingly.

 

[Toshio Uemura]

5 minutes ago, tenofnine said:

but even just a construction dust mask or simple face wrap can prevent you from the habit of touching your mouth or nose

I agree. This can not be emphasized enough. It is an important point often overlooked. I recommend the people who hoarded all the toilet paper start wrapping it around their faces. 

[Toshio Uemura]

10 hours ago, tenofnine said:

I found it weird that the pandemic expert in the TEDx talk sort of jokingly advised not to wear masks if you aren't sick.

Yes. And I have heard the German top virologist, director of the Robert Koch Institute, say something similar on national TV. I believe they are afraid if the public buys off too many 😷 masks, their health staff is running out of supplies. While I consider this a legitimate reason, it is still misinformation regarding the public. Kind of sneaky. 
Here in Japan in previous years, masks were sold for public use and sold to the public in various shapes and fashionable designs, since we have to deal with yellow sand and PM2.5 peaks, Sugi tree 🌲 pollens and of course regular flu prevention. So most Japanese, young and old, have larger stocks at home by default. However few weeks after the outbreak in Wuhan, some people started with hoarding until shelves were empty. But as you can see in the video, most people wear masks, almost by default, and the ones who don’t, they probably  do that because they decided not to do so, rather than because of having none available. 

Edited March 29, 2020 by Toshio Uemura

[Toshio Uemura]

😷 masks

 

 

[Meulebeest]

9 hours ago, travsformation said:

Just to be clear, I'm not criticizing the US. I'm criticizing governments, worldwide, for failing to protect their citizens. When I criticize the French or American government, I'm not attacking the people, and I'm being equally judgemental about my own government. When negligence, incompetence or financial interests cost human lives, I find it hard to stomach. Just like the pandemic, the government-corporate-financial phenomenon is just as global and follows the same trend wherever you look.

 

I agree, I thought I would abstain from political remarks, but I just couldn't resist ...

It is true that sometimes not all facts can be communicated in order to steer human behavior, and the latest trend where some governmental leaders slap everything as #fakenews for (political) gain has set a worry-some trend.
And I understand that some truly believe (as patriots) that their country government is the better example of leadership, leave alone if their leaders represent just that. But there are more similarities as you might think.

As a small anecdote -  A few  years ago I saw one of the episodes where they follow airport security (Nat Geo?) and it went something like this:
An American Citizen gets halted for inspection on luggage and gets questioned formally, correct and politely about his travel intentions and luggage (you know these random picks - you are lucky number 1000). Where the American citizen ranted that "it is no way to treat a US citizen, a friendly nation, ..."
The other way around, ever been to America as a non US-citizen - even from a friendly (western) nation ?
Equal objectives, equal approach, still a different feel in the eye of the beholder.

And I observe on top of that: people are easily influenced and grasps quick and easy truths,  and only a minority challenges (leave alone act on) it.
We have a whole human history line proving this one :-)
 

Only in a few months/years we might have some more objective timeline on the virus story, besides from who is telling it and if it doesn't have a confidential classification.

[Tazarinho]

5 hours ago, Meulebeest said:

The other way around, ever been to America as a non US-citizen - even from a friendly (western) nation ?

I've been to different parts of the US, several times, and under different administrations, for work. And I have to say it largely depends on the customs officer you are dealing with. However under some administrations, it was noticably worse.:)

[tenofnine]

I'm unsure if this is some heavy embellishing or sensationalizing to get younger people to take this more seriously, but I guess it doesn't really matter in the end.
 

 

I have been really disappointed with how younger people (high school and college) have been taking this, and even more disappointed in how some 40+ people think this is all a overreaction and that it's a joke.

I'm taking it seriously as if I have it and am contagious, because let's face it that may be true and it's just so selfish if I act like nothing is different.

[LanghamP]

45 minutes ago, tenofnine said:

have been really disappointed with how younger people (high school and college) have been taking this, and even more disappointed in how some 40+ people think this is all a overreaction and that it's a joke.

I've been thinking of getting this "Boomer Remover" hoodie.

https://www.logikalthreads.com/products/covid-19-boomer-remover-hoodie

 

[tenofnine]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

I've been thinking of getting this "Boomer Remover" hoodie.

https://www.logikalthreads.com/products/covid-19-boomer-remover-hoodie

 

I say pull the trigger, but what terrible poetic justice would it be if you caught corona and it was fatal.

I'm just kidding I really don't care that much about some harmless words on a hoodie, sticks and stones and all that. But if you caught corona and died from it maybe other Boomers would find it funny; unfortunately you wouldn't be around to enjoy the comedy of the situation.

Edited March 29, 2020 by tenofnine