Kingsong 16X is it safe to use in heavy rain

[photorph]

Thank you Michael for posting here.  

 

To Summarize Michael Shen from KS (it's the same things I have been saying):

-KS16x is great wheel for under 40 km/h, acceleration to 40 km/h is great.

-Don't ride KS16x in rain.  

-Overall still a great fun wheel up to 40 km/h, in the future they will take customer feedback and make a better wheel with things customers want

 

What he didn't say that I've been saying:

-If you want a safer wheel at more than 40 km/h (24 mph), look at the GW nikola.  Better top end acceleration/speed, and pedals stay flat.

-the panels have no overlap, it's plastic against plastic and no seals that I saw at least.  LEDs have no protection against water/dust, you can stick your hand in and feel the LEDs.  3rd batch may have better seals, 1st and 2nd batch buyers out of luck.  But I don't see how they can solve the LED being open problem, that's just the design.

-Firmware still needs tweaking, app is glitchy still, and quality assurance and checks need to improve 

 

[skautas2003]

8 minutes ago, photorph said:

Thank you Michael for posting here.  

 

To Summarize Michael Shen from KS (it's the same things I have been saying):

-KS16x is great wheel for under 40 km/h, acceleration to 40 km/h is great.

-Don't ride KS16x in rain.  

-Overall still a great fun wheel up to 40 km/h, in the future they will take customer feedback and make a better wheel with things customers want

 

What he didn't say that I've been saying:

-If you want a safer wheel at more than 40 km/h (24 mph), look at the GW nikola.  Better top end acceleration/speed, and pedals stay flat.

-the panels have no overlap, it's plastic against plastic and no seals that I saw at least.  LEDs have no protection against water/dust, you can stick your hand in and feel the LEDs.  3rd batch may have better seals, 1st and 2nd batch buyers out of luck.  But I don't see how they can solve the LED being open problem, that's just the design.

-Firmware still needs tweaking, app is glitchy still, and quality assurance and checks need to improve 

 

I opened this topic about KS 16x ability to ride in rain and you start to advertise GW nikola Why? Is there question about who is better?

Is it better margin from gotway?  As I understand you represent distributor so you can have some bias in this case. And if return to main question do you confirm that i can ride GW Nicola + in heavy rain without any issues?

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, Micheal Shen said:

Also we will invite more Kingsong users to participate in wheel requirement investigate, for designing and improving a better wheel in future.

I also ride 1st batch KS-16X, and still enjoy it every day, especially fast acceleration from 0~40km/h.

I am not unhappy about my wheel at all. How it rides or how it performs. I think that is brilliant. 

But I do think that KS need to very clear what to expect about weather proofing.

As if dangerous to ride in light rain I don't think so, as long you do not ride on limits. Same as you in a car adapt driving to conditions. I don’t ride as fast, not on metal covers and very cautious on markings on the road. 

I do think that is a market for KS to consider, as there is little choice for a true commuter wheel. Read a fully weather sealed KS16X/KS18XL. 

I am not talking drive proof, but at least rain sealed. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Unventor

[Unventor]

12 hours ago, Micheal Shen said:

The distributor also enquiry my advice about this and send me same photos.

I am sorry for 1st batch bringing troubles to you, also understand that you are a little disappointed about the seller's reply, but engineer's explanation is that the wheel is not designed for riding in the heavy rain or other worse weather.

Also we will invite more Kingsong users to participate in wheel requirement investigate, for designing and improving a better wheel in future.

I also ride 1st batch KS-16X, and still enjoy it every day, especially fast acceleration from 0~40km/h.

I am not unhappy with my seller/dealer. He has done what I expect from an authorized dealer should do.  He helped me arrange to get the wheel to him for investigations. He have asked KS (i expect so at lease) KS on what to do and how to handle this. 

As I understand it a few wheel have had this compared to how many there is sold so far. Yet all those share same story. The repair done as I see it looks to be a temporary job. The way I view it it should not be possible to enter water at the power button area as it had done. 

As for the battery wrapping. It is beyond me how a wrapping inside a wheel can crack like this. Especially when I know how I have handled my wheel. I had 1 time where I have bailed form the wheel at very low speed (less than 5kmh) at a skate ramp. Where the wheel rolled down and then tumbled twice but it was barley scratched on the outside.  If such a tumble can cause such a crack then I must say I am disappointed in build quality. 

Regardless I am expecting the wheel to return to me as the status is repair completed. But I think this thread alone is something KS need to look at. I might have gotten the wrong impression from the above reply. But I had expected more from KS.

And I can see how the GW people now get an easy laugh too, there you go @Marty Backe 

Quote

Also we will invite more Kingsong users to participate in wheel requirement investigate, for designing and improving a better wheel in future.

The reason why I didn't want to do this was to give KS a chance to investigate this with their dealer of "long term" history with KS wheels and authorized seller. Rather me doing an inspection on something I don't know what I am look at (well I might, as I work with electronics/it, but not EUCs). 

I might have 1 faulty unit, but the impact could be big, that is also why I didn't want to go out too soon with info before I knew what the investigation lead to. 

So how I go forward?

It only made me realize I need the creative skills of @The Fat Unicyclist and buy an EUC bodybuard for my wheel. It is clear the solution is not coming from KS. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Unventor
Added a stronger statement for KS to look into this.

[photorph]

9 hours ago, skautas2003 said:

I opened this topic about KS 16x ability to ride in rain and you start to advertise GW nikola Why? Is there question about who is better?

Is it better margin from gotway?  As I understand you represent distributor so you can have some bias in this case. And if return to main question do you confirm that i can ride GW Nicola + in heavy rain without any issues?

Do not recommend riding any EUC in rain officially.  One is not better than other, wanted to point out objective differences.  As Michael said KS16x is great from 0-40 km/h.  

Edited October 24, 2019 by photorph

[Micheal Shen]

I seldomly ride EUC over 40km/h, bcz high speed need higher attention about the surroundings,  no matter I ride KS-18L / KS-16X / Nikola.

It doesn't mean KS-18L / KS-16X / Nikola are not stable when riding speed is over 40km/h. But my personal confortable speed is below 40km/h in greenroad of Shenzhen.

Please do not get me wrong!

Edited October 25, 2019 by Micheal Shen

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

I think it also makes a difference where you ride. I can imagine that the population density and accordingly the traffic is a bit different than here in my village in Germany Lower Saxony Wedemark. The biggest danger here is probably a deer or wild boar that suddenly crosses my path. 

I was in China two years ago. Beijing, Shanghai and other places which I can't remember. So I can well understand that you @Micheal Shendon't want to go faster than 40 kmh there. Probably I wouldn't do that there because of the chaotic way of driving.

 

[Mike Sacristan]

We have plenty of lovely bike paths here in Sweden. The area where I live is usually quite empty and I try not to do too much riding in the city. If I do I usually stick to lower speeds unless I am pretending to be a car.

I have encoded the relevant part into the link so you can see how easily I get to speed and how stable the wheel is.
The speed is quite correct with the GoPro usually lagging -2kmh. I have cross referenced with the Tesla and MSX.

Regarding riding in rain, year 2019 it is a common expectation and we see plenty of EUC riding in light rain.
Heavy rain is another story.

Of course it would be great if the 16X went faster than 50 kmh, like say 60... but why stop there?
I don't understand the 40 kmh part though... 
 

 

[giggidditygiggiddity]

The assembly video shows how quick and hastily the sealant is placed and spread where all that lovely water and gunk will splash underneath. 

Anyone consider a few coats of plasti-dip in those areas? 

[Laurent Vergeynst]

Dears,

 

I bought my KS 16X September last year. I used it as a commuter vehicle. So I can't choose the weather. In Belgium it rains regularly but not/ seldom heavy rain.

2,5 months ago when I arrived at the train station while breaking/ stopping  my unicycle shut down suddenly. White smoke came out of case. Luckily it did catch fire. I could not start anymore the unicycle and the head light stayed always on.  I took the train back. I was a bit afraid for the battery to catch fire in the train. Something I really not wanted to have.

Arrived at home by feet, the head light was still always ON. It stayed ON   till the battery was empty.

I've contacted my seller. He told I have to send the main board to Kingsong for investigation in order to get a new one.

I understand that I worked many year in the quality assurance in the automotive. But I was really disappointed of the service. Since 2,5 months I could not ride my 2000 euro unicycle. In attempt to reduce down time, I've ordered directly a new mainboard. The mainboard arrived very late, basically this week. 

Today during disassembling to replace the mainboard, I've investigated a bit the issue:

   1) It is clearly a case of water ingress causing short circuit at the level of the main switch.

       See link here below:

        https://imgur.com/FkzymSW

        http:// https://imgur.com/WmYvHqC

        https://imgur.com/YpaSt0Ehttps://imgur.com/rtKnWDxhttps://imgur.com/AQWq6O6https://imgur.com/YHaGKNN   

   2) The short circuit also damaged a main IC on the main board

       See here above the links for the supporting material/ pictures.

 

Kingsong should really look into that. It is easy to solve/ reduce strongly the water ingress. KS is using this white sealing to cope with that partially. But the application of the sealing is not controlled. You can clearly see that when opening the wheel.

Kingsong should identify the weak spot of the case through water proof testing. It is not complex. And adapt their manufacturing process.

It should not even cost more. But a revised application of the sealing already used in their process  would significantly improve the quality of the waterproofing.

Of course if Kingsong has the ambition to deliver quality wheel they should go a step further.

But this is a quick and appropriate containment measure till a more deep investigation and more robust improvement is made (case design/ addition of lip ,...).

 

Please feel free to response to my shared experience/ thoughts.

And I hope to get a serious response of Kingsong.

 

Kind regards,

 

Laurent

 

 

[travsformation]

Mine has dust at on the bottom part of the side panels, partially obscuring the see-through edges where the LEDs go, and it only has 200 km on it. Looking at the disassembly video, it doesn't look like there are any particularly vulnerable components there (aside from connections), but it doesn't yield much confidence in terms of weatherproofing...

Any ideas on improving weatherproofing? I was thinking a dielectric protector spray for connections (both internal connectors and for power/USB plugs) and for the shell edges...so that it isn't an issue when disassembling...What do you think about a thin strip of butyl rubber?

[Laurent Vergeynst]

After having received finally the replacement head light module with the main switch, it's clear on the more recent modules Kingsong has added sealing to the module to avoid water ingress into the main switch itself.  See picture here below.
Headlight module_New and Old

This is typical early model quality sickness. From the countermeasure point of view I hope Kingsong also did something on the casing itself.

After I had disassembled to repair, I took also a look into the overall quality   I could see that the casing  was reworked. It looks like Kingsong was still tuning their plastic molding process at the time of the manufacturing of my unicycle.

Now my Kingsong 16X is back alive. What a pleasure to see, hear and feel ;-) 

For the waterproofing and mainly protection, I've ordered bodyguard from "Roll.nz".

But due to COVID-19 situation, it will arrive later than planned.

Tomorrow I'm sending the mainboard and headlight module to the seller/ kingsong for warranty.

I'll see how that goes...

[Kryziss]

I have read many times that the roll.nz cover was a good solution against rain but I don't understand why. The cover has openings for the light, power button, sensor, handle and speaker so how does it prevent water from entering?

I would never go ride in the rain on purpose but in case I got caught, as an alternative I found a backpack rain cover that fits perfectly on the top half of the wheel and stops at the tire. It is kept in place by velcro that I put at the front and back, it doesn't move at all while riding and it covers all potential water entry points.

I feel like this should provide even more protection than a roll.nz cover since it is a waterproof cover with no holes in it, not even for the handle. If I use this, can I get back home with some peace of mind during rain or are there still worries to be had?

[redsnapper]

after complete tear down of aug2020 ks16x ks clearly making attempt to increase water resistance in various high risk areas via extra sealant. however still the price of water ingress is high and hence useful to add our own removable barriers to seams/gaps where water finds a path. hot glue is not pretty but it seals decently and can be peeled off easily when disassembly needed. electric tape also can be used stategically to seal gaps/ seams that are obvious points of entry. 

these r crude inelegant solutions to a problem that shld be solved by KS via proper design (gaskets, no butt joints, etc).    for now i rather disfigure machine with crude barriers to ride rain or shine than wait for manufacturers to step up:-(

[redsnapper]

20 hours ago, amelanso said:

after complete tear down of aug2020 ks16x ks clearly making attempt to increase water resistance in various high risk areas via extra sealant. however still the price of water ingress is high and hence useful to add our own removable barriers to seams/gaps where water finds a path. hot glue is not pretty but it seals decently and can be peeled off easily when disassembly needed. electric tape also can be used stategically to seal gaps/ seams that are obvious points of entry. 

these r crude inelegant solutions to a problem that shld be solved by KS via proper design (gaskets, no butt joints, etc).    for now i rather disfigure machine with crude barriers to ride rain or shine than wait for manufacturers to step up:-(

i also carry a plastic bag sized to fit top half of euc - if it really comes down i slap that over machine and hv great rainproofing... not often people see a guy riding a floating trash bag!

[GoGeorgeGo]

On 10/24/2019 at 3:48 PM, photorph said:

Do not recommend riding any EUC in rain officially.  One is not better than other, wanted to point out objective differences.  As Michael said KS16x is great from 0-40 km/h.  

The inmotion wheels are all ip55 rated so they should be fine in non torrential rain conditions.  Im suprised every company does not go to at least ip55 for these machines, they are almosy exclusively used outdoors 

[Crooznfbroozn]

The roll.nz cover won't help you with any heavy rain I'm sure. However I can clearly see openings (I can see a led light through the opening) in the top of the shell near the handle, which would be covered by the bodyguard - I imagine every little bit helps here. I myself ducktaped over the usb ports and put a small cover of my own over the charging ports... Just in case.

To second what everyone else has been saying. This should be a total non-issue to at least improve. Looking at the insides of a V5F where the plastic shells overlap.. not having the cover pieces just be adjacent to each other would help. 

As far as speed goes, I would definitely not recommend 40km/h+ in rain. I imagine you'd be creating quite a dangerous projectile there... Then again I'm pretty much against any condition 40km/h+ (in populated areas) on devices that to my knowledge have no redundancy built in at all. 

[Unventor]

On 8/4/2020 at 1:19 PM, Kryziss said:

I have read many times that the roll.nz cover was a good solution against rain but I don't understand why. The cover has openings for the light, power button, sensor, handle and speaker so how does it prevent water from entering?

I would never go ride in the rain on purpose but in case I got caught, as an alternative I found a backpack rain cover that fits perfectly on the top half of the wheel and stops at the tire. It is kept in place by velcro that I put at the front and back, it doesn't move at all while riding and it covers all potential water entry points.

I feel like this should provide even more protection than a roll.nz cover since it is a waterproof cover with no holes in it, not even for the handle. If I use this, can I get back home with some peace of mind during rain or are there still worries to be had?

In short it might help a bit but it will not be a final solution. 

We were trying to bring fort a rain cover. But the material I beta tested didn't work as water could pematrate it expecially where you rub on the fabric as you ride. 

It depends on batch how sensitive the KS16X to water entering the wheel. On of the best option right now is the V11 when it now enters 3rd batch. On top of that it have suspension too. 

Now the V11 is my main wheel. The KS16X will act as back up and as my winter wheel. In winter the high pedals on the V11 might be a slight problem as you normally want to stay as much as possible over the wheel. The high pedals make it so easy to tilt the wheel on the side which risk for the wheel to slide out under you. 

If you only think of the KS16X as a solution a backpack raincover might serve you for the KS16X. The problem is to mount it and keel it stay mounted. But like other I would think twice about high-speed rain riding. If you have the CX tire it can become very slipper on wet asphalt. My KS16X side slipped close to a foot(30cml once doing a L turn in a roundabout to a cycle lane. 

I found later that it seems to be a combination of my hard turning technique that apply torque in the turn while the tire is on a non pathern part of the tire. 

[redsnapper]

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

The problem is to mount it and keel it stay mounted. But like other I would think twice about high-speed rain riding. If you have the CX tire it can become very slipper on wet asphalt. My KS16X side slipped close to a foot(30cml once doing a L turn in a roundabout to a cycle lane. 

 

As is the case with any means of locomotion (auto,bike, canoe,zeppelin,camel,etc.), local conditions dictate behaviour. I ride year round including on long sheets of ice in winter which requires very significant changes to riding style! So clearly wet riding requires adjustment since water on roadway can cause slips, hydroplaning etc. But given the original post was about how to prevent problematic water entry into machine ( as KS16X and most other machines  will not do well in heavy rain ). If you don't mind looking a little strange, put a plastic bag over the machine and you have a totally impermeable barrier that will prevent any damage to the machine and allow you to navigate a wet world in style (albeit a rather peculiar style)... This solution is cheap and very portable and can be deployed at a moment's notice. DANGER - make sure the bag is sized properly as to not get pulled under tire or you will have a wet and very likely unpleasant surprise!

[Mike Sacristan]

I find it very challenging to slide out on wet asphalt. I tried quite hard the other day on my MSX and did not succeed. Maybe my 13500km old tyre has too much grip now that it has no tread.

The 16X early batches were prone to water ingress at the front panel of the wheel. The riders in our group use backpack covers or EUC shower caps when riding in rain.

[Ach-Herr-Jeh]

Hi 16x Friends ...
does not water penetrate from the inside? (wheel splash or spray on the underside of the main board ...)?
Is a shower cap over switch, USB, charging socket, light ... sufficient to protect the KS16X?

thanks for dry answers ;-)
 

[Mike Sacristan]

7 hours ago, Ach-Herr-Jeh said:

Hi 16x Friends ...
does not water penetrate from the inside? (wheel splash or spray on the underside of the main board ...)?
Is a shower cap over switch, USB, charging socket, light ... sufficient to protect the KS16X?

thanks for dry answers ;-)
 

I have done a few thousand km on the 16X in the wet, on snow, on salt water (which is used to keep the bike paths from freezing over during winter).
No problems.

The underside of the mainboard has a heatsink with a rubber gasket. Imagine water and snow spraying up around in there at 50kmh. It seems to work.
No rider that I know of has had any problem on any wheel because of splash or spray from the inside.

[ManjaroBlack]

There are a few places water can (and in some cases, WILL) creep into the 16X and could create a dangerous situation for the rider. The most dangerous is water getting into the handle and shorting the lift sensor. You don’t want the lift sensor to activate while riding... The most common ingress of water is the power button and light area. Another area where water often gets in is around the mud flap. 
 

You can do some things to seal up the wheel. The easiest thing to do is seal up the mud flap, tape up the front panel with clear tape, and throw a bag on top to keep rain out of the handle. 
 

You can also open up the wheel and seal things with silicone for a more elegant fix. 
 

All that being said, I’ve ridden several times in torrential rain, deep (4”) puddles. I took some precautions sealing up the front panel with clear tape, sealing the mud guard, and bagging the top. All is well. I might eventually seal it up with silicone, but that’s a lot more effort. Maybe when I have to change the tire next I’ll do it and make a vid. 

[Tokumeino]

On 10/3/2020 at 11:31 AM, amelanso said:

after complete tear down of aug2020 ks16x ks clearly making attempt to increase water resistance in various high risk areas via extra sealant. however still the price of water ingress is high and hence useful to add our own removable barriers to seams/gaps where water finds a path. hot glue is not pretty but it seals decently and can be peeled off easily when disassembly needed. electric tape also can be used stategically to seal gaps/ seams that are obvious points of entry. 

[...]

I'm still hesitating between a V11 and a KS16X and this sealing thing matters to me.

I can open a whele and apply sealant by myself if needed (and in case I buy a KS16X, I will). You mention "hot glue". What I want is a sealant that can be cleanly removed by pulling it, when needed. And this sealant should stand the temperature of the hot light.

About hot-glue : wouldn't it melt again in higher temperatures ? And can really glue get pealed off easily and in a clean way ?
What are the most appropriate sealants in your opinion (cleanly removable, OK with higher temperatures) ?

[Mike Sacristan]

1 hour ago, Tokumeino said:

I'm still hesitating between a V11 and a KS16X and this sealing thing matters to me.

I can open a whele and apply sealant by myself if needed (and in case I buy a KS16X, I will). You mention "hot glue". What I want is a sealant that can be cleanly removed by pulling it, when needed. And this sealant should stand the temperature of the hot light.

About hot-glue : wouldn't it melt again in higher temperatures ? And can really glue get pealed off easily and in a clean way ?
What are the most appropriate sealants in your opinion (cleanly removable, OK with higher temperatures) ?

I would imagine something like permatex black silicone would work quite well. Just be aware of the long curing time / drying time.

https://www.permatex.com/products/adhesives-sealants/sealants/permatex-black-silicone-adhesive-sealant/

Or you can just use an EUC shower cap. I have yet to hear of any water coming in from inside the wheel... only through the power button / front panel area and in heavy rain.. and this was early batch 16X.