Kingsong 16X: pedal dipping (overleaning) video clip

[chrisjunlee]

Finally got around to filming this. Here's the 16X going ~25 mph. I'm carefully lean-whiplashing it with just my ankles. 

Before filming this, I estimated the dip was ~30°. And it does indeed look like that.

 

[greentung]

That's wild. I guess I am sticking with exploding GotWays instead of dipping KingSongs.    

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

WTF...which Firmware is that? 

1.0.1 with nearly empty battery? 

[chrisjunlee]

1 minute ago, buell47 said:

WTF...which Firmware is that? 

1.0.1 with nearly empty battery? 

This is something I kept on bringing up, but words only go so far . 

This is v1.05, full battery. I don't think this is a firmware issue - it's just Kingsong. It's even worse on the 18XL - I'm able to pedal dip ~20 mph. 

I am not an aggressive rider, nor am I heavy (137 lbs / 62 kg). I'm not even gripping the sides for extra leverage, these are ankle flicks.

Also note this is below the "please decelerate" threshold. 

 

The Nikola 100V on the other hand, 50% battery, 35 mph: pedals are absolutely solid. This is the irony I alluded to in my Nikola 100V thread: Kingsong has spent so much time focusing on their 'safe' sweetspot of 20mph, they're lacking data and testing around higher real usage speeds - they've trolled themselves. 

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

At what speed can you do this as easily as it looks here?

I wonder how Kuji can ride so aggressively with it and why this hasn't happened to me before, when I'm already standing (78kg full gear) on the edge of the pedal with my toes uphill and pumping? That can't be standard, everyone would do a faceplant. 

[meepmeepmayer]

The one thing you want a self-balancing vehicle to do is... always balance! WTF is going on there? Extremely low response frequency of the balancing algorithm? Firmware doing this at high (lol) speed to slow you down?

You can produce something like this on the 18XL too? At 20mph, no less?! Aka "walking speed" for modern wheels?

Massive balls award goes to you for riding these wheels at speeds where this can happen. Thanks for posting!

[chrisjunlee]

8 minutes ago, buell47 said:

At what speed can you do this as easily as it looks here?

I wonder how Kuji can ride so aggressively with it and why this hasn't happened to me before, when I'm already standing (78kg full gear) on the edge of the pedal with my toes uphill and pumping? That can't be standard, everyone would do a faceplant. 

That's ~25 mph.

People have been faceplanting without warning, thus the nerfed 1.06 update. 

I'll update at some point, but doubt this will be fixed. I can do the same on 18XL ~15-20mph.

What gives you the impression that Kuji rides aggressively? 

[chrisjunlee]

3 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

The one thing you want a self-balancing vehicle to do is... always balance! WTF is going on there? Extremely low response frequency of the balancing algorithm? Firmware doing this at high (lol) speed to slow you down?

You can produce something like this on the 18XL too? At 20mph, no less?! Aka "walking speed" for modern wheels?

Massive balls award goes to you for riding these wheels at speeds where this can happen. Thanks for posting!

You're too kind xD 

I think it's the power delivery system. Gotway might be doing some circuitry magic to ensure we have reserve power at higher speeds, despite the back EMF. 

Also note I'm riding soft modes for both wheels. I'll give this a shot at firm mode tonight.

[stephen]

Its strange how you can do it on the 18xl and the 16x . Do you know when to do it or does it do it by itself ..or is it a saftey feature that if you press down so fast it doesn't accelerate past the cut off speed? ,, Strange behaviour especially on both your wheels

[chrisjunlee]

Here's the log from that ride: 2019_09_23_09_59_54.csv

My GoPro clock is having issues, so I can't figure out the exact time. However, I did make a mental marker at 10:17 am - that's when I stopped filming.

Here's the power draw sorted from highest to lowest, showing that I'm dipping ~26-28 mph.

3001 Watts 🔥

[chrisjunlee]

27 minutes ago, stephen said:

is it a saftey feature that if you press down so fast it doesn't accelerate past the cut off speed?

It's not a safety feature, nor am I accelerating past the cut off speed

27 minutes ago, stephen said:

Its strange how you can do it on the 18xl and the 16x ... Strange behaviour especially on both your wheels

I own the 16X and Nikola 100V (and MCM5 and mten3).

My 18XL experience: I tried out a local rider's 18XL weeks ago, and I immediately pedal dipped it. I estimate I was going 15-20 mph. It was a shocking to me - I did not expect it to be so underpowered compared to the 16X. 

27 minutes ago, stephen said:

Do you know when to do it or does it do it by itself

For safety reasons, I'm doing it by flicking my ankles - I can also do it by leaning, but then I won't be able to move back fast enough, so I'll faceplant. Think of it as rocking forward and pre-emptively and immediately backing off - I'm playing with fire edging that faceplant.

Edited September 23, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[meepmeepmayer]

3000W/74V = 40A. High but not really mega much for a 6p battery and wheel.

Maybe you should add "FW 1.05" to the title for clarification (that's the old, pre-reduction one, right?). But this might be WHY Kingsong did the speed reductions in 1.06 (new one?). Good to know.

Do you have the balls to update to 1.06 and try if this still appears? Or do you not want to ruin your wheel's capabilities? I'd understand if you stick with 1.05.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

Please try that in medium and hard mode again. Can't believe that you can do this with 1.0.6 and hard mode. If yes, I'm a pussy. 

[stephen]

3 minutes ago, buell47 said:

Please try that in medium and hard mode again. Can't believe that you can do this with 1.0.6 and hard mode. If yes, I'm a pussy. 

I ride in soft mode and I've been riding it today doing slaloms and accelerating quick then braking just testing the wheels capabilities .i feel more confident in riding normal conditions if i just mess about on the wheel 

I'm on test firmware

Edited September 23, 2019 by stephen

[chrisjunlee]

8 minutes ago, buell47 said:

Please try that in medium and hard mode again. Can't believe that you can do this with 1.0.6 and hard mode. If yes, I'm a pussy. 

I'll update to 1.06 for my evening commute . 

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

I'm not sure anymore, but wasn't there even a statement from KS somewhere not to use medium or softmode at 1.0.5 or below?

Maybe it's not fair to blame the manufacturer if you use an old faulty firmware, is it? 

Don't misunderstand, I'm also not happy about the throttling in 1.0.6. 

[stephen]

8 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

I'll update to 1.06 for my evening commute . 

You do know you'll be throttled allot until firmware 1.07

1.07 is SUPPOSED to be out this week

Edited September 23, 2019 by stephen

[stephen]

From kingsong 3 days ago

[Gytis]

Already many videos about that- just do properly calibration....

 

[chrisjunlee]

11 hours ago, stephen said:

You do know you'll be throttled allot until firmware 1.07

1.07 is SUPPOSED to be out this week

I'll upgrade to 1.06 if this gets more than 5 upvotes :p

10 hours ago, Gytis said:

Already many videos about that- just do properly calibration....

I've been able to do this since v1.01. Calibrated many times - didn't make a difference.

Edited September 24, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[stephen]

7 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

I'll upgrade to 1.06 if this gets more than 5 upvotes :p

 

I've been able to do this since v1.01. Calibrated many times - didn't make a difference.

I think we need to know if it does this on 1.06 otherwise you might have faulty wheel. I think you need to know as well.. There's 1 upvote for you 👍

[mrelwood]

I’m quite confident in (hoping) that your wheels won’t do that in the other riding modes. I never considered the soft mode on the 16S to be even rideable, it felt like a flashback to a puny ancestor of a wheel of 2014 or so. The soft mode on a GW is inherently a lot harder than even the hard mode on 18XL, and behave very differently.

Maybe KS has ”forgotten” to work on the soft mode for a few years since no-one has seemed to use it anyway? 😜

[Mono]

2 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

I am not an aggressive rider

What are the alternative explanations for that you are the only one seeing this? Maybe you are the only one riding in soft mode?

Generally, I find pedal dip under strong load neither surprising nor extremely problematic. It can serve as a useful reminder that the rider is approaching the load limit.

[Chriull]

4 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

 

This is v1.05, full battery. I don't think this is a firmware issue - it's just Kingsong. It's even worse on the 18XL - I'm able to pedal dip ~20 mph. 

...

The Nikola 100V on the other hand, 50% battery, 35 mph: pedals are absolutely solid. . 

 

3 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

Also note I'm riding soft modes for both wheels

Soft mode allows such pedal tilts although ~20° are extreme. But also just "flicking the ankles" can still put real pressure on the pedals.

Soft mode has a "reaction delay" - the wheel lets the pedal dip a bit, and then the wheel accelerates to "catch" the rider again. This acceleration has to be stronger as compared to the hard mode, at which the wheel reacts instantly. That's imo why some/many (not me) riders like the soft mode - one can lean forward and then the wheel pushes forward real hard. It ?is/seems? easier to get the "high" accelerations.

But by this higher accelerations (needed) it's easier to reach/"scratch" the overlean limit! If its really "scratching" the limit this could be an explanation for these pedal tilts. "To soft" mode with "too much pushing" at "too high" speeds.

How soft is the nikola mode you rode in comparisson to the KS16X? How is the difference in "reaction delay"?

3 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

I'll give this a shot at firm mode tonight.

+1! Looking forward to the results!

3 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

showing that I'm dipping ~26-28 mph.

That's ~44 km/h - tiltback is at 50km/h? If real acceleration is needed this speeds make it really probable to scratch the limit...

3 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

3001 Watts 🔥

You have voltages around 74-75V, already way below 84V. Although most of this voltage drop is "just temporarly" from the current burden, Li Ion accus have the "bad characteristic" to accumulate burdens - they need some time to recover from each voltage sag. So repetitive burdens will draw the voltage lower as could be explained just by current draw times internal resistance.

Whats the lift cut off speed for the Ks16X at 75V? At ~half of this speed the wheel can deliver its max power, from that point on power decreases (quite fast). This 44 km/h should be already quite above this half lift cut off speed at 75V! So this, in combination with your decent pushing in soft mode strenghtens again this hypothesis.

If you like, you can send me your wheellog data to look further into this. Together with lift cut off speeds with the corresponding battery voltages.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Chriull

[Marty Backe]

This is fascinating. How slow can you ride and do the same thing? I don't want to do this at 25-mph, but I'll try it at a slower speed.

It does seem to be a natural effect from riding in soft mode. Gotway has traditionally had some really squishy soft modes, but you say that you can't do this with the Nikola in Soft Mode?

It's never occurred to me to try the flicking motion to get this behavior. But if you're riding fast, in soft mode, and you abruptly lean forward, it makes perfect sense that the pedals will dip.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Marty Backe