Kingsong 16X: pedal dipping (overleaning) video clip

[Marty Backe]

3 minutes ago, buell47 said:

But you have the second batch, and KS may have fixed it already? 

If not, then probably Jason has made the patch for you already, if he is as good as everyone says. 

Without the patch I had extreme tilting forwards and backwards all the time, partly so strong that it threw me off. But as I said, only extreme when music was playing. Without music it was acceptable with slight tilting here and there. 

Hopefully mine has the patch. I know I was playing music today at full volume and never noticed anything. I'll take that to mean mine was patched 

[Shad0z]

3 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

There is zero delay riding the ks16x.  I use experienced mode always.  I think you maybe using the wrong mode.  With experienced mode, the KS16x is quicker than the Nikola.  My seat of the pants feeling.  Also if you slap the Kuji side pads on for added leverage it accelerates like a bat out of hell.  

No it was experienced mode. You can see it on the headlight when accelerating, it dips then goes back. Not by much though. Buy riding the 16x there is more grind to it and that little dip becomes very noticable if you try to accelerate fast.

[3euc]

On ‎9‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 12:51 AM, chrisjunlee said:

The ankle flicks are a safer way to simulate that lean input for a short duration.

Let me see if I can lay to rest this ankle flicking misunderstanding. An ankle flick is not the same as shifting your center of gravity forward or a lean. Completely different moves, actually. An ankle flick is the equivalent of abruptly pushing forward on a Segway i2 handle, which does absolutely nothing, except move the handle forward and then backward in reaction. It doesn't propel the Segway, nor does it disrupt its ability to remain balanced. Step on a Segway i2 and you might feel what I mean. If you're wondering what a Segway i2 has to do with EUCs, an EUC is basically a one wheel Segway without a handle.

Just because you can do it does not necessarily mean anything is wrong. GotWay having a stiffer ride also doesn't mean anything is wrong with King Song. They aren't engineered identically. I've had both King Song and GotWay, so I am aware of their differences.

You are simply pushing the pedals forward and an instant adjustment is made to accommodate the sudden downward pressure, which itself is inconsequential. An ankle flick is not a simulation of anything--it's just you flicking your ankles. Keep doing it, it'll keep dipping. Stop doing it, it'll stop dipping. Exactly the same on a Segway i2--keep pushing forward on the handle and it will keep moving forward and then backward in reaction. The moment you stop pushing on the handle, the handle will stop moving. Presto! Mystery solved.

My suggestion would be to stop flicking your ankles, particularly at speed, because your action is creating a reaction by your EUC, when its resources should be available as much as possible for more critical functions.

[chrisjunlee]

38 minutes ago, 3euc said:

Let me see if I can lay to rest this ankle flicking misunderstanding. An ankle flick is not the same as shifting your center of gravity forward or a lean. Completely different moves, actually.

Different moves, same effect. If that's where we disagree, then so be it.

39 minutes ago, 3euc said:

You are simply pushing the pedals forward and an instant adjustment is made to accommodate the sudden downward pressure

Ok, you're in the "it's a feature" camp. Ok.

38 minutes ago, 3euc said:

Keep doing it, it'll keep dipping. Stop doing it, it'll stop dipping.

"Don't hit a bump and you won't crash! Problem solved!"

Edited October 7, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[3euc]

@chrisjunlee We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I think you've missed my points entirely.

Perhaps others will learn from my accurate explanation of this meaningless ankle flicking move.

If you're new to EUCs or self-balancing devices, it could be you've got a thing or two to learn.

Should you find yourself in Los Angeles, I can easily demonstrate what I've described.

[Shad0z]

10 minutes ago, 3euc said:

@chrisjunlee We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I think you've missed my points entirely.

Perhaps others will learn from my accurate explanation of this meaningless ankle flicking move.

If you're new to EUCs or self-balancing devices, it could be you've got a thing or two to learn.

Should you find yourself in Los Angeles, I can easily demonstrate what I've described

Angle flick or not this issue still happens. That is not a firmware feature. If it is then they are really lazy programmers who dont want to fix power delivery issues. This happened to some extent on the 18L aswell. But at even lower speed. My friend almost wiped out from going 40kph and then he was going to overtake someone but then the pedals dipped which almost made him fall off. But they returned like as seen in this video, the main argument for it being a feature is that they dip forward instead of cutting out. But this is easily debunked because the 18xl has these issues at around 20mph at which speed it should not be close to a cutoff. Same with the 16x, 40kph and an acceleration or angle flick should not be enough to come close to a cutoff. If it is a feature then ks wheels are ridiculously underpowered.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

I'm really confused, or rather surprised. Why not just drive the EUC the way it is supposed to and everything will be fine within the limits? Why search for techniques to get negative results when this technique is not needed for riding?

[3euc]

11 minutes ago, buell47 said:

I'm really confused, or rather surprised. Why not just drive the EUC the way it is supposed to and everything will be fine within the limits? Why search for techniques to get negative results when this technique is not needed for riding?

Exactly!

[Chili D]

On 9/23/2019 at 11:53 AM, chrisjunlee said:

Finally got around to filming this. Here's the 16X going ~25 mph. I'm carefully lean-whiplashing it with just my ankles. 

Before filming this, I estimated the dip was ~30°. And it does indeed look like that.

 

I have a 16x and I’m not sure I follow what you’re doing or what the issue is. Im 185lbs and struggle to get it up to the 25-27 range. I feel like I have to lean very hard  and can’t cruise effortlessly at higher speeds. Not sure if maybe my horizontal calibration needs to be done again.  

[Shad0z]

27 minutes ago, buell47 said:

I'm really confused, or rather surprised. Why not just drive the EUC the way it is supposed to and everything will be fine within the limits? Why search for techniques to get negative results when this technique is not needed for riding?

Well because you dont need techniques for making it happen. 

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

13 minutes ago, Chili D said:

I have a 16x and I’m not sure I follow what you’re doing or what the issue is. Im 185lbs and struggle to get it up to the 25-27 range. I feel like I have to lean very hard  and can’t cruise effortlessly at higher speeds. Not sure if maybe my horizontal calibration needs to be done again.  

Strangely, I weigh fully dressed 78kg and reach 45-46km without any effort. Also I hardly lean forward, but press very lightly with my feet.
However, I rarely drive straight ahead, but carve away from a standstill with alternating pressure on the pedals. Like carving with skis. The people behind me probably always think I am drunk.
Maybe I should just try to accelerate straight ahead to see if I have problems too.

[chrisjunlee]

1 hour ago, buell47 said:

I'm really confused, or rather surprised. Why not just drive the EUC the way it is supposed to and everything will be fine within the limits? Why search for techniques to get negative results when this technique is not needed for riding?

It's a safer way to simulate hard input. Try it with a body lean, and you will crash. 

"but bruh, just do it with your body, and I guarantee you won't have the same effect"

Ok then sherlock. I did do it with body mass tonight. Guess what happened? The wheel dipped and I crashed. 

 

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

I don't know, I see your video and you're not talking nonsense, but there are so many 16X out there with riders that are a lot heavier than us and they don't fall on their faces one by one. Why not? Of course there are some cases, but I wasn't there live and can't confirm how they drove when it happened.

[photorph]

43 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

It's a safer way to simulate hard input. Try it with a body lean, and you will crash. 

"but bruh, just do it with your body, and I guarantee you won't have the same effect"

Ok then sherlock. I did do it with body mass tonight. Guess what happened? The wheel dipped and I crashed. 

 

This is making me nervous to ride the 16X.  I lean hard and am at the edge of the limits usually, ever since I've had gotway MSX and nikola my riding style has become really aggressive.  

[mrelwood]

 

3 hours ago, 3euc said:

You are simply pushing the pedals forward and an instant adjustment is made to accommodate the sudden downward pressure

This comment sounds like you watched a different video, or didn’t understand the issue that was demonstrated. The wheel does not seem to make an adjustment of any kind, and doesn’t seem to have time or power to react to the sudden weight applied at the front of the pedals.

 

3 hours ago, 3euc said:

Exactly the same on a Segway i2--keep pushing forward on the handle and it will keep moving forward and then backward in reaction.

If the 16X would have done the same (accelerate forward and then back), there would be no issue. But it didn’t, instead it tilted forward.

 

3 hours ago, 3euc said:

My suggestion would be to stop flicking your ankles, particularly at speed, because your action is creating a reaction by your EUC, when its resources should be available as much as possible for more critical functions.

Which functions do you find more critical than trying to keep the rider upright? If the pedals are not flat, the rider is not being kept upright.

If a wheel tilting forward due to a sudden pressure at the front of the pedals is acceptable to you, what do you think happens when such wheel hits a sudden pothole or a root and the rider applies sudden pressure at the front of the pedals as (s)he tries to regain balance? The wheel first calculates wether the tilt comes from an ankle-flick or a critical riding situation?

Guess what happens when I hit a pothole at speed on my MSX? Nothing at all, because the wheel reacts and accelerates instantly, before the wheel tilts forward by any noticeable amount.

Before the MSX came out, Gotway published a video of a durability test situation where they let a riderless MSX roll onto a tall curb. The wheel bounced straight up, but it held itself perfectly straight all the way until it hit the ground. It was impressive for me to watch, that the wheel reacts so fast that even a bouncing rubber tire can’t disturb the balance enough to make the wheel tilt visibly during the ~1 second it stays in the air.

How would the 16X behave in the same situation, I wonder.

[chrisjunlee]

46 minutes ago, photorph said:

This is making me nervous to ride the 16X.  I lean hard and am at the edge of the limits usually, ever since I've had gotway MSX and nikola my riding style has become really aggressive.  

Just baby it past 25mph. You’ll get a feel for the limits soon.

I ankle flick now just to gauge where the wheel is at.

46 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Guess what happens when I hit a pothole at speed on my MSX? Nothing at all, because the wheel reacts and accelerates instantly, before the wheel tilts forward by any noticeable amount.

Before the MSX came out, Gotway published a video of a durability test situation where they let a riderless MSX roll onto a tall curb. The wheel bounced straight up, but it held itself perfectly straight all the way until it hit the ground. It was impressive for me to watch, that the wheel reacts so fast that even a bouncing rubber tire can’t disturb the balance enough to make the wheel tilt visibly during the ~1 second it stays in the air.

Wow. You’re making me want a MSX now. I heard the MSX is confidence inspiring because it’s tank-like. I didn’t realize the tuning was a big part of that!

[eddiemoy]

11 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm curious, do you have any statistics to back this statement up?

Anecdotally, most people I personally know have very fast wheels or are saving to get a very fast wheel. But of course I'm not making an across-the-board declaration.

I'd love to know how many wheels of each have been sold. It's a mystery as far as I'm concerned.

It is just common knowledge if you look at what is out there.  Don't let the folks you hang out with cloud or affect your opinion.  How many Inmotions have sold?  How many ninebots have sold?  GW doesn't sell that many units per year.  

Yes, I also have stats from the manufacturer and I can figure out it isn't all that many units.  

 

[eddiemoy]

10 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Just depends on where you live. In a big city I wouldn’t see the use of faster than 31mph. But I live and ride in suburban/countryside areas lol.

There are roads that are 35mph (which means 40 for a car) that have no bike lanes that I want to ride down instead of going slowly down the rough, uneven sidewalks. Acceleration is important if the street lights are close together. But top speed rules for long cruising between lights. I want a Monster for this purpose but I don’t think I’d like the dramatic difference between the nikola and it acceleration wise. 

@Marty Backe I assume @eddiemoy means much more people own wheels that are not 100v. Which would be true considering there are less 100v wheels than others.... 

That is the same reason I own a Nik+ since I also live in the burbs.  But the guys in NYC would argue they need 40mph also.  I again think it is due to the rider.  

My point is there are a lot more people who own EUC's that are slower than 31mph.  The guys we hang out with doesn't represent the majority.  They are the early adopters and the ones who ride on the extreme.  

[eddiemoy]

8 hours ago, Shad0z said:

No it was experienced mode. You can see it on the headlight when accelerating, it dips then goes back. Not by much though. Buy riding the 16x there is more grind to it and that little dip becomes very noticable if you try to accelerate fast.

hm... i've not noticed any dip in mine and i ride it pretty hard and push to tiltback a lot.  the grind that you are talking about is just a product of the new power delivery algo.  I got that when testing out the 100v msx.  I take that to be normal.

have you tried to calibrate it?  i use a level to calibrate or the iphone bubble.

[3euc]

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

This comment sounds like you watched a different video, or didn’t understand the issue that was demonstrated. The wheel does not seem to make an adjustment of any kind, and doesn’t seem to have time or power to react to the sudden weight applied at the front of the pedals.

Which functions do you find more critical than trying to keep the rider upright? If the pedals are not flat, the rider is not being kept upright.

I understand precisely what is being shown and know exactly why it's happening. All I see is a reaction to an action. Eliminate the action and there is no reaction. Keeping a rider upright is obviously the most critical function of an EUC, but that is different than remaining level, which doesn't mean the pedals can never tilt. GotWay is very stiff, so of course it's less noticeable. GotWay staying stiff is not because of more power, but because of its design. King Song is designed to have more movement--it's not a defect. Try getting on a Segway i2 sometime and you will understand the movement better. Self-balancing devices are not necessarily supposed to never tilt--instead, there is a balance range. GotWay range is very narrow, which can be comforting to people who prefer less movement. King Song has more of a balance range, which I happen to like more.

Keep in mind when you ride multiple EUC makes that they won't ride exactly the same, which is why people develop preferences. I've owned Ninebot, GotWay, and King Song EUCs and I much prefer the King Song design, so I ride a King Song. I don't insist on riding a Ninebot or GotWay, only to complain about their design. My advice to anyone is find the make and model you prefer and then ride that. Life is too short to spend much time on the wrong wheel.

[Marty Backe]

7 hours ago, photorph said:

This is making me nervous to ride the 16X.  I lean hard and am at the edge of the limits usually, ever since I've had gotway MSX and nikola my riding style has become really aggressive.  

  Then I would also be very nervous.

So many people ride their wheels very aggressively. Very fun. I get it. But the risk factor goes way up. I guess everyone just has to crash and get injured before they start riding just a little more conservatively 

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

It is just common knowledge if you look at what is out there.  Don't let the folks you hang out with cloud or affect your opinion.  How many Inmotions have sold?  How many ninebots have sold?  GW doesn't sell that many units per year.  

Yes, I also have stats from the manufacturer and I can figure out it isn't all that many units.  

 

You do have statistics from the manufacturers??? Please do tell. I'm earnestly interested. I have no idea but have always wondered how many units are being sold.

[ArqFG]

🤔🤔I wonder if the dipping has something to do with the outside temp🤔🤔, let's me explain: I use the wheel to go/comeback from work...  Usually when I commute I ride around 25/30 km\H) and the weather temp is a bit low (7-2c), and sometimes I would get some overleaning (1) (not always), on Sat on my ride home the temp was quite cold (0-3c) and on my ride home I got (3-4 serious) overleaning, and usually to fix it I stop, step a side and lift the wheel so when I put it back on the ground it balance it self... But one was so bad that when I stop a side I couldn't hold my self standing (because of the inclination my feet where), and wheel just felt... And I had to restart it (2-3 time before I was able to ride it again)

(sry I've not video of it I usually don't film my self, specially when commuting to work,  Feb:1.07)

Edited October 7, 2019 by ArqFG

[stephen]

13 minutes ago, ArqFG said:

But one was so bad that when I stop a side I couldn't hold my self standing (because of the inclination my feet where), and wheel just felt... And I had to restart it (2-3 time before I was able to ride it again)

Still trying to come to terms with all this pedal dipping issues . What i can't understand is- we all have the same wheel run the same firmwares 1.05 or 1.07  why some are some getting it and not others it's very strange to me 🤔 there's got to be some explanation if everyone's done the Bluetooth patch and calibrated just in case .  I've ridden my wheel straight out of the box , and when I've changed firmwares I've not always calibrated it, has anyone emailed kingsong or there dealer for an explanation?

 

[UniVehje]

10 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

I'm 130 lbs drawing 3455 Watts - and I am a 3 month noob.

Your move.

I think you are missing something if you try to prove your riding skills by showing how much your wheel has used power momentarily. It’s really not that special or difficult to do this.