Kingsong 16X: pedal dipping (overleaning) video clip

[FlyboyEUC]

My 18xl does this sometimes although I can't/haven't tried to recreate it. Typically happens at speed and going over a bump while accelerating.

[chrisjunlee]

2 hours ago, Chriull said:

if you like, you can send me your wheellog data to look further into this. Together with lift cut off speeds with the corresponding battery voltages.

Wheelog link is in the same post, first line [2019_09_23_09_59_54.csv] 

2 hours ago, Chriull said:

You have voltages around 74-75V, already way below 84V. Although most of this voltage drop is "just temporarly" from the current burden, Li Ion accus have the "bad characteristic" to accumulate burdens - they need some time to recover from each voltage sag.

This is about 15 minutes into my commute from a full charge. Maybe 5 miles out?

2 hours ago, Chriull said:

Soft mode has a "reaction delay" - the wheel lets the pedal dip a bit, and then the wheel accelerates to "catch" the rider again. This acceleration has to be stronger as compared to the hard mode, at which the wheel reacts instantly. That's imo why some/many (not me) riders like the soft mode - one can lean forward and then the wheel pushes forward real hard. It ?is/seems? easier to get the "high" accelerations.

This doesn't happen at lower speeds - it gets mushier the faster you go (back EMF reducing effective voltage).

Nikola 100V is solid, all the way up to 38 mph on full battery. Past that I haven't tried accelerating hard since I get the 5 beeps.

Edited September 24, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[chrisjunlee]

I swear I've repeated all this at least 15 times in various threads and DMs in the past month. The power of video 🤣.

[chrisjunlee]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

This is fascinating. How slow can you ride and do the same thing? I don't want to do this at 25-mph, but I'll try it at a slower speed.

It does seem to be a natural effect from riding in soft mode. Gotway has traditionally had some really squishy soft modes, but you say that you can't do this with the Nikola in Soft Mode?

It's never occurred to me to try the flicking motion to get this behavior. But if you're riding fast, in soft mode, and you abruptly lean forward, it makes perfect sense that the pedals will dip.

I'm not sure. I first did this around the 300 mile mark, asymmetrical stance. That stance allowed me to grip the wheel diagonally and tilt forward hard like a drinking bird.

I recently worked back to a symmetrical stance with a slightly wide stance (no touching sides). 25 mph is the slowest I can do it at for my weight of 137 lbs. Going uphill would probably lower that threshold.

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

It does seem to be a natural effect from riding in soft mode. Gotway has traditionally had some really squishy soft modes, but you say that you can't do this with the Nikola in Soft Mode?

I'm pretty sure I was riding the Nikola 100V on soft. It's been several hundred miles since I've checked/set the riding mode. I do remember switching to full soft at some point.

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

It's never occurred to me to try the flicking motion to get this behavior. But if you're riding fast, in soft mode, and you abruptly lean forward, it makes perfect sense that the pedals will dip.

Just be careful. I have ~800 miles on this wheel. The flick is more of applying a momentary force, then backing off halfway through the motion. 

Charging up the 16X now. If it doesn't rain in the next couple hours, I'll update to 1.06 and try out the different modes. 

Edited September 24, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[Marty Backe]

14 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

I'm not sure. I first did this around the 300 mile mark, asymmetrical stance. That stance allowed me to grip the wheel diagonally and tilt forward hard like a drinking bird.

 

I recently worked back to a symmetrical stance with a slightly wide stance (no touching sides). 25 mph is the slowest I can do it at for my weight of 137 lbs. Going uphill would probably lower that threshold.

I'm pretty sure I was riding the Nikola 100V on soft. It's been several hundred miles since I've checked/set the riding mode. I do remember switching to full soft at some point.

Just be careful. I have ~800 miles on this wheel. The flick is more of applying a momentary force, then backing off halfway through the motion. 

Charging up the 16X now. If it doesn't rain in the next couple hours, I'll update to 1.06 and try out the different modes. 

Great that you're willing to downgrade your wheel by going to 1.06.

Oh, and don't forget to confirm that you can't do this in hard mode in 1.05, before you upgrade to 1.06.

I'm hoping that you still can do this in 1.06 because than it means that this is a feature of KingSong wheels in general. If it goes away in 1.06 then I'm going to feel obligated to upgrade for safety. But I would prefer to stay with 1.05 to avoid any speed throttling.

[mrelwood]

 

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Gotway has traditionally had some really squishy soft modes

MCM4 comes to mind as an actual slow soft mode. But since perhaps the Tesla the GW soft mode hasn’t had a slightest delay to the response. Soft and hard modes seem to react identically to a fast flick or a sudden obstacle. It’s only when the rider keeps leaning when the soft mode starts to let the pedals tilt slowly.

KS soft mode is very different. It is indeed soft and slow to respond from the get go, and doesn’t change much wether you keep leaning or not.

[chrisjunlee]

38 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Great that you're willing to downgrade your wheel by going to 1.06.

Oh, and don't forget to confirm that you can't do this in hard mode in 1.05, before you upgrade to 1.06.

I'm hoping that you still can do this in 1.06 because than it means that this is a feature of KingSong wheels in general. If it goes away in 1.06 then I'm going to feel obligated to upgrade for safety. But I would prefer to stay with 1.05 to avoid any speed throttling.

Well, 2 problems, on android phone:

• stuck in firmware upgrade screen - not even getting to the progress bar. I've tried flipping the wheel on the side, all sorts of power cycles, restarting phone, etc. 
• Kingsong app won't let me switch settings - it immediately goes into "your firmware update isn't complete!" then backs out to bluetooth connection screen

Edit: switched to an IOS device (ipad) - update is working fine.

Edited September 24, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[chrisjunlee]

Just to be sure, which one is hard?

 

[Marty Backe]

18 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Just to be sure, which one is hard?

 

You got it.

[chrisjunlee]

Update: rode to work on firmware 1.06, experient mode. Nothing has changed -  still able to pedal dip.

What are the signs of v1.06? The only thing different is I'm getting 4 beeps now.

I'm able to pedal dip before the 4 beeps ever kick in.

[mrelwood]

37 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Update: rode to work on firmware 1.06, experient mode. Nothing has changed -  still able to pedal dip.

To confirm that the (buggy) app did actually change the mode, did you feel the difference in the pedal mode when riding? If you did, this is starting to sound like a capacitor failure.

37 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

What are the signs of v1.06?

The low battery tiltback starts to limit the top speed already at 50%. I think some people said also that the power delivery feels more solid, and is easier to climb hills.

 

[chrisjunlee]

Just now, mrelwood said:

To confirm that the (buggy) app did actually change the mode, did you feel the difference in the pedal mode when riding? If you did, this is starting to sound like a capacitor failure.

The low battery tiltback starts to limit the top speed already at 50%. I think some people said also that the power delivery feels more solid, and is easier to climb hills.

 

I didn't feel a difference. Then again, I was probably riding experiment mode before?

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

Sure as hell there's something wrong with your wheel. I can't imagine that you can apply more force with your ankle alone than someone with almost 80kg who is already squatting uphill on the toes on the pedal edge and leans forward. 

Edited September 24, 2019 by buell47

[stephen]

Just now, buell47 said:

Sure as hell there's something wrong with your wheels. I can't imagine that you can apply more force with your ankle alone than someone with almost 80kg who is already squatting uphill on the toes on the pedal edge and leans forward. 

I'm 90kg before kitting up I've been riding soft mode last few days and i love it . I've also been accelerating fast and braking hard just to see what it has ,, I've never noticed anything like this but i only lean on the pedals not flick it .i sort or rock and pump the pedals

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

3 minutes ago, stephen said:

but i only lean on the pedals not flick it .i sort or rock and pump the pedals

Yeah, that's how I do too. Shouldn't pedal dipping occur earlier with this technique than only with the ankle?

[Marty Backe]

27 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

To confirm that the (buggy) app did actually change the mode, did you feel the difference in the pedal mode when riding? If you did, this is starting to sound like a capacitor failure.

The low battery tiltback starts to limit the top speed already at 50%. I think some people said also that the power delivery feels more solid, and is easier to climb hills.

 

But he stated that he can do this on the KS18XL too (someone else's since he doesn't own an XL). So unless everyone's capacitors are failing, this is a design issue.

[stephen]

3 minutes ago, buell47 said:

Yeah, that's how I do too. Shouldn't pedal dipping occur earlier with this technique than only with the ankle?

Maybe i don't push it that hard but then again I'm not really an aggressive rider as such im sort of safe aggressive rider if that makes sense

[Mono]

40 minutes ago, buell47 said:

Sure as hell there's something wrong with your wheel. I can't imagine that you can apply more force with your ankle alone than someone with almost 80kg who is already squatting uphill on the toes on the pedal edge and leans forward. 

I'd guess few people try an aggressive ankle dip at 25mph.

[chrisjunlee]

Back home at the iPad, this is what my wheel shows:

Edited September 24, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[chrisjunlee]

53 minutes ago, stephen said:

Maybe i don't push it that hard but then again I'm not really an aggressive rider as such im sort of safe aggressive rider if that makes sense

What does your wheelogs say? I'm basically able to draw out ~3000 W whenever I pedal dip. @BleepBloopBlop, who is a heavier rider, has hit 2400W?

As I mentioned before, this was a technique breakthrough ~300 miles. Here's my post regarding that eureka moment: 

And to be clear: that technique is different than the ankle flicks. The ankle flicks are a safer way to simulate that lean input for a short duration.

[Chriull]

5 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

Wheelog link is in the same post, first line [2019_09_23_09_59_54.csv] 

Ups - should start using glasses...

Unfortionately it's just with a sampling intervall of ~0,8-0,9 seconds  This used to be 0.2 seconds with the KS16s and the "old" wheellog...

Takes very much details away, but not something really remarkable to be seen at a first glance...

5 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

This is about 15 minutes into my commute from a full charge. Maybe 5 miles out?

Yes. Hefty voltage sag - but it recovers inbetween. 40A x 0.2 Ohm=8V. But the KS16X has a 20s8p configuration? Then it should be more like 40mOhm * 20 / 8 = 0.1 Ohm...?

... strange...

Wasn't there some discussions in the past, that you get low range with your KS16X and somehow the consesus was that you drive "too fast and/or aggressive", so this eats up the battery?

Just imagining/wildly guessing - maybe one of your battery packs is offline or has problems (cable/connection broken)?

5 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

Nikola 100V is solid, all the way up to 38 mph on full battery. Past that I haven't tried accelerating hard since I get the 5 beeps.

Would be nice to have the lift cut of speeds - if the Nikola 84V is ?maybe? already comparable to the KS16X, and the 100V has the same motor as the 84V the 100V nikola should have already much more speed reserves...

And if the Nikola have "hards/more responsive" soft modes as the KS16X, as @mrelwood mentioned above, that's another point for GW in this situation....

[chrisjunlee]

12 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Wasn't there some discussions in the past, that you get low range with your KS16X and somehow the consesus was that you drive "too fast and/or aggressive", so this eats up the battery?

That's the 100V Nikola. I get 45 miles per charge - or explosion 💥

The 16X I get ~70-80 miles? I rarely take it below 50% battery though since it's was my in town commuter wheel while I had the Nikola.

12 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Would be nice to have the lift cut of speeds

Cutoff speed at full power?

Edited September 24, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[Chriull]

8 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

That's the 100V Nikola. I get 45 miles per charge - or explosion 💥

The 16X I get ~70-80 miles? I rarely take it below 50% battery though since it's was my in town commuter wheel while I had the Nikola.

Ah - then i mixed it up. Would have been a to nice and easy guess and solution...

8 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Cutoff speed at full power?

No - lifting it and let it accelerate in air until it cuts off. If you log this with wheellog one has the according battery voltages to it and can calculate the lift cut off speeds for any other battery voltage (they are (more or less) proportional).

As far as i understand till now the GW 80% beep is "correlated" to battery voltage ~ lift cut off speed. Could be that the 5 beeps start at 80% of this speed (or some other percentage).

[stephen]

1 hour ago, Chriull said:

- lifting it and let it accelerate in air until it cuts off. If you log this with wheellog one has the according battery voltages to it and can calculate the lift cut off speeds for any other battery voltage (they are (more or less) proportional).

You can just turn off the lift switch in the app

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

6 hours ago, stephen said:

I'm 90kg before kitting up I've been riding soft mode last few days and i love it .

I tried soft and medium right now, but soft is really horrible for me. Maybe it's nice on flat pavement but not on bumpy trails? 

Medium is OK, but hard fits my needs better.