MSX 100v VS MSX 84v

[Alex_from_NZ]

On 10/17/2018 at 7:47 AM, Jason Vickery said:

Update. Here is my opinion and experience now having ridden the 84v and the 100v.

As far as speed and acceleration go and pedal angles,range etc. I have not and do not notice any difference in acceleration between the two wheels at all. They ride exactly the same.

Top speed I did notice a difference. I am 230-235lb without gear and I seem to consistently get beeps at 50kmh on the 84v.  Now this will differ according to your weight and the wind and the incline etc.  I live in Florida which is pretty flat and this seems to be pretty consistent.  Now on the 100v I did not get the beeps at 50kmh but I also could not bring myself to push it much past this speed anyway because it is fast and with wind resistance etc I feel like 50kmh is a good top cruising speed. 

Now I will do further testing and like others have said I am sure the wheel can go faster than 50kmh downhill or with the wind at your back etc without the beeps.

I just wanted everyone to know that the wheels are identical to me in everything other than top speed, and if you are not almost 250 lbs like me then you should get a higher top cruising speed on the 84v  than I do.

When I received the 100v I destroyed the stock side pads instantly with normal use in the first day.  They also are very grippy and stick to your legs and pull all of your leg hairs out.  Now thanks to Jason at eWheel we have the replacement pads which I installed and seem to he much better quality. 

Like others have shown you peel the old ones off and sand down the little nub that is left from the plastic molding process and apply the new pads.  Now the new pads do not fit inside of the groove like the old ones or the ones you can buy aftermarket they actually cover the design depression which seems to me like it would leave a small week spot between the side pads and most of the adhesion area in the center so I filled that space with two layers of double sided carpet tape and then applied the pads.

I also filed down the pedals as shown in some videos and pictures bringing them down from 15° dihedral angle to 10°.  I still experienced foot pain and cramping extensively and I know me being 70lbs overweight does not help tye matter.  With the wide body of the msx and the additional side pads I feel like my feet are going to fall off the pedals not from front to back but off of the outer sides. When I received the new 84v msx I quickly removed the original side pads but I did not put the new ones on and I did not change the pedal angles yet. I am enjoying it in this form. I feel like I have less protection for the wheel without the side pads but my feet do not hurt as much even with the increased pedal angles I think because my legs can get closer to the wheel.  I would love a very thin pad that just barely exceeds the mold depression kind of like the original ones but better quality. I wonder what euc guys aftermarket ones are like as far as how far they stick out.

I went on a long distance ride yesterday and here are my numbers. 

Traveling at 40-50kmh the entire trip with the 1300 watt msx 84v and being a rider of 235lbs under normal wind conditions and a nice warm temperature I was able to travel 20 miles at high speed. Without having hearing the beeps below 45kmh.  Now this number is under max cruising speeds the entire trip and I could go further if I were to travel slower the entire journey or even travel the same pace up to 20 miles and then start reducing my speed. I just wanted you all to know with my weight and at top cruising speed I get 20 miles.  Now I will definitely be upgrading to the 1600 watt hour battery packs and eventually be adding onto that as I like to travel at top cruising speed on long stretches of open road.

Well thanks guys and any recommendations on tire pressure etc are welcome I haven't changed any of that since it came out of the box. Hope to talk with you soon.

16

For those who had trouble reading it like me, i thought it worth doing this as it was a very good post i thought and worth the read.

[Jason Vickery]

36 minutes ago, Alex_from_NZ said:

For those who had trouble reading it like me, i thought it worth doing this as it was a very good post i thought and worth the read.

Thank you so much for putting it in paragraph form for for me that was very kind. I actually did the same thing earlier and added some new information and then the site crashed.here is the extra information.

Riding without side pads does not seem to be the answer. The wide body and angular top corner of the shell digs into your lower calf. I would love a very thin pad like the stock ones but better quality. Maybe euc guys pads are the answer.

The video I have seen about making the pedals larger is intriguing. Has anybody had success in this or does anyone know where to find more information? The only downfall I see is more pedal scraping which is a more than fair trade off. 

Is it possible to add some sort of Bluetooth device inline between the circuit board and the speaker that can send a signal every time power is sent to the speaker indicating the 80% warning? Or is there some other easier was to get the beeps into a Bluetooth headset? 

Thanks.

 

[Alex_from_NZ]

8 minutes ago, Jason Vickery said:

Is it possible to add some sort of Bluetooth device inline between the circuit board and the speaker that can send a signal every time power is sent to the speaker indicating the 80% warning? Or is there some other easier was to get the beeps into a Bluetooth headset? 

Thanks.

 

 

You could use a 12v Bluetooth transmitter.  It picks up the audio signal and sends it via Bluetooth to your headphones or stereo or whatever..  Splice the speaker cables and add a 3.5mm jack, plug it in and connect to your headphones via Bluetooth and the beeps should come through.  I have been thinking about doing something similar as i have been looking at Bluetooth receivers to make my own Bluetooth helmet for music and phone calls and seen some transmitters as well..

[Electroman]

18 hours ago, Alex_from_NZ said:

You could use a 12v Bluetooth transmitter.  It picks up the audio signal and sends it via Bluetooth to your headphones or stereo or whatever..  Splice the speaker cables and add a 3.5mm jack, plug it in and connect to your headphones via Bluetooth and the beeps should come through.  I have been thinking about doing something similar as i have been looking at Bluetooth receivers to make my own Bluetooth helmet for music and phone calls and seen some transmitters as well..

Great idea, only thing I am worried about with the wireless is signal drops or anything sending me into a full on dive at very high speed, grr just get the shills thinking about it.

That trust is so important but on the other hand the MSX is a Gotway, still I feel trust with this machine where with the old ACM I did not, progress.

It will only get better but should try your variant, if coming through well for a long period perhaps trust is building up over time? Personally I have looking for the V10/V10F variant whatever Inmotion use to send out audio signals cause that one I thick did cut through noise quite well compared the Gotway beeper.

[RayBanMonster]

On 9/27/2018 at 3:18 PM, Keith said:

 

This can be soooo wrong for electric motors because you are completely ignoring efficiency. The losses in any electric power chain are I squared R losses I.e. the bit that ends up wasted as heat. It is current that generates heat, not voltage, that is why very high voltage power lines are used to deliver electricity over long distances, the power doesn’t get wasted heating up the wires.

Assuming that at a given speed and weight rider on a given day and place (I.e. all things equal) then the EUC will require a certain power consumption and given that P=VI then a higher voltage will require correspondingly less current which means correspondingly less losses due to heat so the 100V machine ought to have better range from the same Wh size pack, even though it will have less Ah then the lower volt pack.

However this is in an ideal world where the motor has been correctly wound to give its best efficiency at cruising speed - which Gotway may, or may not, have done? 

Because I don’t know the characteristics of the two motors used, another area of uncertainty is this cruising speed. Electric motors are at the most efficient running (at full power) at around 80% of there no load (or absolutely maximum) speed, efficiency falls off rapidly if run below 50% of no load at full power (say when speed is limited by going up a very steep hill for example) that loss of efficiency again manifests itself as heat.  I know we never run at full power on EUC’s but the theory holds for example if you are using half power and going at less than 25% no load speed you are again in an area of poor efficiency.

If the 100V and 84V EUC’s both use exactly the same motor with the same RPM/V (Kv) then, cruising at say 15MPH on both will see the 100V machine running at a much lower efficiency as it is running at a much lower percentage of its higher no load speed I.e. you would have to run it fast to get any efficiency out of it. However if it has a lower Kv motor such that it’s no load speed is no higher than the 84V machine then it will be more efficient as it will consume less current for a given power output at a given speed.

This is a long winded way of saying that only a back to back test of both machines by the same rider (or two of the same weight and riding style) will really show which works better.

Good, Exactly... there is a reason for the 100v machine.. My simplified belief is in the very simple equation P=IV.. given the same high level of current efficiency Id assume  built into the circuitry for both machines ( anything else is a nonsensical spend apart from perhaps better connectivity between components), My assumption is that given the highest stable current support, clearly a high voltage machine is better if:

1. You have a higher weight, favour higher speeds, arnt concerned about distance as much as these mentioned factors.
2. I live in London.. its long angular road with 90 degree T junctions, hard and ultra fast acceleration/deceleration  and a couple of causeways away from any glory you'd seek. As such the 84V is not for me, and there is a reason Gotway released this version.. they didn't do it for kicks.
3. I value POWER, hard acceleration (and I'm a bit weighty at the moment. ( yeah .. I know.. fat b**) . therefore for me clearly the 100v is better suited to my needs given that I need acceleration for safety and to know high torque demand has a less chance of failure for my build.Gotway please be more transparent about what you produce!
4.  

100V it is... Id love the z10 but availability plus the fact that unit is a 58V machine with issues puts me off, I mean.. cmon now a 58v machine? when P=IV?, the current required /engineered into that unit must be reaching its limit  given the silly voltage, & despite its "fantabulous"d design.. (looks wise  a 100% winner against any gotway imho). That said a Gotway is proven to person accordingly, despite its design aesthetics.... [THE SUITCASE]...

My problem is F#&*% me.. the Gotway is an ugly-fugly  looking beast.. but if she delivers Ill overlook it... whilst eternally pimping its ass .

 

 

[mrelwood]

When the 100V MSX came out, I read and watched as many reviews and comparisons to the 84V version that I was able to find. The common result was that there is no notable difference during riding, even under fast accelerations. The 84V version will already happily cruise a 100 kg rider at 50 km/h, so nobody was eager to examine differences in or near the top speed.

While I don’t have any doubts towards any calculated differences, in practice there might not be a notable difference. The 84V version has more battery cells in parallel which also might even out some performance differences.

The Z10 being a 58V wheel without clear performance loss due to the low voltage system has made Marty consider the 100V Gotways as a gimmick.

If you need the 100V version to feel safer, then it’s a natural choice for you. But I would also consider that the practical differences might be too small to notice after all.

[meepmeepmayer]

9 hours ago, RayBanMonster said:

My simplified belief is in the very simple equation P=IV..

That absolutely correct.

But the 84V 1300Wh/1600Wh battery is 6p, while the 100V 1240Wh battery is 4p, so the 84V has 50% higher peak current.

So the theoretical peak power of the 84V MSX is 84*6/100*4 = 126% that of the 100V MSX. It's bigger.

You'll never reach those crazy high theoretical peak numbers with either wheel, so it doesn't matter. Get the wheel you like. The 100V MSX is faster and you can enjoy the prestige, the 84V MSX gives you better range, otherwise it's more or less the same wheel. The Z10 looks great and you won't overlean it also.

All three wheels are safe (as well as all the other current brand wheel with big enough batteries). On paper, the 84V 6p 18 inchers like the MSX 84V or KS18XL beat other 18 inchers in peak power.

[OUNCESMUSIC]

100V for speed enthusiasts and perhaps those on the heavy side. So on the way is my 100V Monster eager to eat the MSX up and put all this to rest.
 

[Electroman]

4 hours ago, Oswald Valentine-Lopez said:

100V for speed enthusiasts and perhaps those on the heavy side. So on the way is my 100V Monster eager to eat the MSX up and put all this to rest.
 

Speed wise it can make sense with the larger diameter, although to some like myself accelerations matter a lot for city riding and so does braking, used to think 16" was the ultimate sized wheel but corrected that to 18" now, just the best middle ground for someone like myself.

Yes dreams of a 30kw peak beast is there but only a lot of money, educating myself, time and money can take me there at this point and do all that myself, even after that the law comes into play, would the police still look away if happen to catch me in action? I doubt it, that is pushing it. 

[Jason McNeil]

Gotway has an incomprehensible pricing policy for their 100V Wheels. On the Monster, the wholesale price on the 84V & 100V is the same, despite loosing 555Wh of capacity, fair enough. Yet on the MSX there's a 370Wh capacity gap, but the 100V MSX costs nearly $200 more, in volume, than the 84V. 

I've tried to get an explanation on why this is so; the physical hardware is the same, just with a few firmware tweaks & battery packs that are wired differently. We shift a fairly decent quantity of Gotways, I've tried to negotiate, so that at least there is pricing parity, but they're completely resolute on keeping this structure in place  

[Marty Backe]

58 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

Gotway has an incomprehensible pricing policy for their 100V Wheels. On the Monster, the wholesale price on the 84V & 100V is the same, despite loosing 555Wh of capacity, fair enough. Yet on the MSX there's a 370Wh capacity gap, but the 100V MSX costs nearly $200 more, in volume, than the 84V. 

I've tried to get an explanation on why this is so; the physical hardware is the same, just with a few firmware tweaks & battery packs that are wired differently. We shift a fairly decent quantity of Gotways, I've tried to negotiate, so that at least there is pricing parity, but they're completely resolute on keeping this structure in place  

Isn't the price for something based on supply and demand and not material costs? Microsoft sells Windows 10 Professional at a rather large premium over Windows 10 Home. The only difference is that some virtual toggle switches have been turned on. One example of an almost infinite number.

I imagine that Gotway feels that the 100-volt MSX is "special" and demands a premium for the honor of owning one.

Personally, I don't get the appeal of the 100-volt wheels. There's a difference in riding at the edges (primarily at body crushing speeds) but I've never noticed any kind of "wow" difference between the models. When I first rode the 84-volt MSuper, I said, "Wow", and immediately placed my order with you and sold my 67-volt version. When I first rode the 100-volt MSX and Monster, I said, "Eh".

[eddiemoy]

14 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Isn't the price for something based on supply and demand and not material costs? Microsoft sells Windows 10 Professional at a rather large premium over Windows 10 Home. The only difference is that some virtual toggle switches have been turned on. One example of an almost infinite number.

I imagine that Gotway feels that the 100-volt MSX is "special" and demands a premium for the honor of owning one.

Personally, I don't get the appeal of the 100-volt wheels. There's a difference in riding at the edges (primarily at body crushing speeds) but I've never noticed any kind of "wow" difference between the models. When I first rode the 84-volt MSuper, I said, "Wow", and immediately placed my order with you and sold my 67-volt version. When I first rode the 100-volt MSX and Monster, I said, "Eh".

100V is only for speed demons.  Give a little more top end margin so you are less likely to cut out than on a 84V.  Basically with the 100V you can cruise at the speed that the 84V would cut out.  For those who like to go fast, the 100V is a must.  Keeps them out of trouble for the most part.  I only heard of one cut out on the 100V MSX, at 49mph, walked away with wrist fracture, but alive.  completely nuts.  

[Mono]

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

I've tried to get an explanation on why this is so; the physical hardware is the same, just with a few firmware tweaks & battery packs that are wired differently. We shift a fairly decent quantity of Gotways, I've tried to negotiate, so that at least there is pricing parity, but they're completely resolute on keeping this structure in place  

It makes perfectly sense to me: skim off the money from those customers who are willing to pay for an apparently cool high-tech max-out (but otherwise meaningless) label. I don't mind this policy at all, as long as I can personally get the virtual-same wheel for a more reasonable price.

EDIT: On the other hand, if the motor is the same, higher voltage should translate in increased power and decreased life expectancy of the motor, shouldn't it?

[Michael Tucker]

I bought a 100V Monster thinking that the acceleration would be faster than 84V. I don't have an 84V Monster to compare it too, but the 100V feels quit sluggish, especially compared to my 84V MSX. Incidentally, I have found it easy to achieve very fast speeds on the monster without realizing it. I have tilt-back enabled for 30mph and found myself going 34mph without even feeling the tilt-back and did not hear 80% beep. I believe the extra high-end margin is essential on this giant wheel as its natural cruising speed is already so high.

I have many wheels now, and I believe each wheel has its own natural comfortable top speed, despite listed spec's. Even though my MTEN3 "could" go 25mph in certain setting, average street riding only yielded 18 to 19mph. On my 84V MSX I have heard the 80% at 30mph, and it started to feel a bit too fast anyways. I could see 100V on an MSX only being usable in certain settings, and not so useful everyday. I can imagine the comparison to a Corvette, while a blast on the weekend, its a bit over-kill as your 9-5 commuter during the week. And if you can only afford one wheel, sacrifices must be made somewhere. 

[mrelwood]

7 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

cut out on the 100V MSX, at 49mph,

That’s got to have happened in Russia...  Somehow they are the craziest speedsters.

[meepmeepmayer]

49mph is 79kph, 10kph more than the 3rd alarm at full battery, the highest third alarm of any Gotway wheel

[Vancouver Wheeler]

20 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

I bought a 100V Monster thinking that the acceleration would be faster than 84V. I don't have an 84V Monster to compare it too, but the 100V feels quit sluggish, especially compared to my 84V MSX. Incidentally, I have found it easy to achieve very fast speeds on the monster without realizing it. I have tilt-back enabled for 30mph and found myself going 34mph without even feeling the tilt-back and did not hear 80% beep. I believe the extra high-end margin is essential on this giant wheel as its natural cruising speed is already so high.

I have many wheels now, and I believe each wheel has its own natural comfortable top speed, despite listed spec's. Even though my MTEN3 "could" go 25mph in certain setting, average street riding only yielded 18 to 19mph. On my 84V MSX I have heard the 80% at 30mph, and it started to feel a bit too fast anyways. I could see 100V on an MSX only being usable in certain settings, and not so useful everyday. I can imagine the comparison to a Corvette, while a blast on the weekend, its a bit over-kill as your 9-5 commuter during the week. And if you can only afford one wheel, sacrifices must be made somewhere. 

Hi Michael, 

I am pretty set on getting the 84v MSX.  Seeing on how you have both the Monster and the MSX, I though I'd ask you this question:

I mountain bike in North Vancouver and Whistler, which is very rocky,"rooty", muddy and steep.  I'd like to try riding a EUC in place of a mountain bike (but not my current Inmotion V8).

If you were taking a wheel to ride off road with mountain bikers, would you take your Monster or MSX?

I figure the Monster would be smoother and I am guessing it has more clearance, but don't know if it has the maneuverability or torque to make those a sudden acceleration bursts over obstacles and hills.  I'm uncertain if the MSX has the clearance.

 

Thanks

Allan

[Marty Backe]

5 minutes ago, Vancouver Wheeler said:

Hi Michael, 

I am pretty set on getting the 84v MSX.  Seeing on how you have both the Monster and the MSX, I though I'd ask you this question:

I mountain bike in North Vancouver and Whistler, which is very rocky,"rooty", muddy and steep.  I'd like to try riding a EUC in place of a mountain bike (but not my current Inmotion V8).

If you were taking a wheel to ride off road with mountain bikers, would you take your Monster or MSX?

I figure the Monster would be smoother and I am guessing it has more clearance, but don't know if it has the maneuverability or torque to make those a sudden acceleration bursts over obstacles and hills.  I'm uncertain if the MSX has the clearance.

 

Thanks

Allan

You didn't ask me, but I'm chime in any way 

The MSX has the best pedal clearance of any wheel available right now. It has super high pedals and a large dihedral angle. You feel invulnerable.

For tough trail conditions I would take my MSX over my Monster any day. For mellow (not too steep or gnarly) trails the Monster is hard to beat for comfort.

[Vancouver Wheeler]

Thanks Marty!  I did not expect to get a reply from a wheel celebrity   I will get the MSX.  If anything, due to the difference in $. 

The other 99% of my wheel usage is commuting to work in traffic (downtown Vancouver).  I would imagine either the Monster or MSX would be fine.  I don't lane split and try to out race cars off a red light like Chooch.

Thanks

Allan

[stephen]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

The MSX has the best pedal clearance of any wheel available right now. It has super high pedals and a large dihedral angle. You feel invulnerable

The new Nikola pedals give you more clearance and a big platform to stand on ,i used to slip forward going over bumps and hills they have proved themselves worthy today 😊😊 , overheat hill would be good with these on , the extra length makes acceleration easier , pure locked in now i love then 😊

[Marty Backe]

14 minutes ago, stephen said:

The new Nikola pedals give you more clearance and a big platform to stand on ,i used to slip forward going over bumps and hills they have proved themselves worthy today 😊😊 , overheat hill would be good with these on , the extra length makes acceleration easier , pure locked in now i love then 😊

How exactly do they give you more clearance?

[stephen]

Just now, Marty Backe said:

How exactly do they give you more clearance?

They have even more of a pedal angle , i didn't think I'd like it but took it for a ride today and WOW!! Loved it excellent feel to it. I think it's just what it needed the bigger pedal 😊

[Marty Backe]

13 minutes ago, stephen said:

They have even more of a pedal angle , i didn't think I'd like it but took it for a ride today and WOW!! Loved it excellent feel to it. I think it's just what it needed the bigger pedal 😊

Oh oh. Some people aren't going to like that 

[irmatt]

6 hours ago, Vancouver Wheeler said:

Hi Michael, 

I am pretty set on getting the 84v MSX.  Seeing on how you have both the Monster and the MSX, I though I'd ask you this question:

I mountain bike in North Vancouver and Whistler, which is very rocky,"rooty", muddy and steep.  I'd like to try riding a EUC in place of a mountain bike (but not my current Inmotion V8).

If you were taking a wheel to ride off road with mountain bikers, would you take your Monster or MSX?

I figure the Monster would be smoother and I am guessing it has more clearance, but don't know if it has the maneuverability or torque to make those a sudden acceleration bursts over obstacles and hills.  I'm uncertain if the MSX has the clearance.

 

Thanks

Allan

Hey allan.

I live in North Vancouver and have ridden my 84vmsx up cymour a bunch of times. However going down and diagonal though rough terrain is great, going up rough terrain is quite hard because of the slow acceleration.

going up steep nice groomed trails like Baden-Powell Trail is fine.  I have never ridden the Monster but im more than happy with the msx.

[mrelwood]

 

10 hours ago, irmatt said:

going up rough terrain is quite hard because of the slow acceleration.

I have lately played with two approaches to overcome this exact issue:

- Move around. Whenever I approach a steep uphill, I move my feet a bit forwards. Perhaps just half an inch. And vice versa for steep declines. It makes a big difference, as I’m then able to make more momentum by leaning forward the same amount as before.

- Off-set foot positioning. One foot an inch more forward than the other. That way I have an acceleration foot and a brake foot. I don’t feel quite as secure with this method when off-road, but I can’t see why it couldn’t be learned.

Also, @irmatt, if your foot position allows for comfortable declines but not inclines, your regular foot position may be a bit more back than optimal.