Vancouver Wheeler Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 17 hours ago, irmatt said: Hey allan. I live in North Vancouver and have ridden my 84vmsx up cymour a bunch of times. However going down and diagonal though rough terrain is great, going up rough terrain is quite hard because of the slow acceleration. going up steep nice groomed trails like Baden-Powell Trail is fine. I have never ridden the Monster but im more than happy with the msx. Thanks Matt. I've been up the Baden Powell trail before on my V8. It was fine, but would be so much better on an MSX. Like mrelwood mentioned, sometimes I try to put my lead foot really forward and my second foot really far back. The staggered feet helps with balance on really bumpy terrain (like when my feet are bouncing on and off). If pedals were say, 16 inches long, this would be more effective. I sometimes stand this way when riding to work downtown over the bumps because I am wearing work shoes, which are not as grippy. I believe we are both a member of the local facebook chat that Tom runs. I'm going to the meet this Saturday, assuming it goes ahead. Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Tucker Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 On 5/1/2019 at 11:26 AM, Vancouver Wheeler said: Hi Michael, I am pretty set on getting the 84v MSX. Seeing on how you have both the Monster and the MSX, I though I'd ask you this question: I mountain bike in North Vancouver and Whistler, which is very rocky,"rooty", muddy and steep. I'd like to try riding a EUC in place of a mountain bike (but not my current Inmotion V8). If you were taking a wheel to ride off road with mountain bikers, would you take your Monster or MSX? I figure the Monster would be smoother and I am guessing it has more clearance, but don't know if it has the maneuverability or torque to make those a sudden acceleration bursts over obstacles and hills. I'm uncertain if the MSX has the clearance. Thanks Allan I concur with @Marty Backe and @irmatt, the Monster is not the way to go for your described ride and even then the MSX will probably be a chore as going downhill slowly on the MSX is not very secure feeling (motor feels like it is struggling). As far as "muddy", thats a special skill that usually requires a special tire swap. Check out @mrelwood's posts on knobby tires and sloppy conditions on MSX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, Michael Tucker said: going downhill slowly on the MSX is not very secure feeling (motor feels like it is struggling). My msx is sound downhill i wouldn't take the z10 downhill but if deffo take my msx , but if never try hardcore mountain bike tracks ,,,trails yes,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 29 minutes ago, stephen said: My msx is sound downhill i wouldn't take the z10 downhill but if deffo take my msx , but if never try hardcore mountain bike tracks ,,,trails yes,, Yet if you were to ride the MSuper V3s+ or KS18XL down a very steep hill and compare the experience to the MSX, you would realize that steep downhills are not a strong point for the the MSX. The MSX is better that the Z10, but not the best 18-inch downhill rider. When I talk about steep downhills, I'm talking about a hill where you feel you are on the edge of the wheel falling away from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 18 hours ago, irmatt said: Hey allan. I live in North Vancouver and have ridden my 84vmsx up cymour a bunch of times. However going down and diagonal though rough terrain is great, going up rough terrain is quite hard because of the slow acceleration. going up steep nice groomed trails like Baden-Powell Trail is fine. I have never ridden the Monster but im more than happy with the msx. You owe it to yourself to get a set of MSX Powerpads from @EUC GUY. They are a game changer for climbing. I've reviewed them on my YouTube channel. Highly recommended. P.s. I have no affiliation with Mathias and purchased the ones I use on my MSuper V3s+ and MSX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irmatt Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 Just now, Marty Backe said: You owe it to yourself to get a set of MSX Powerpads from @EUC GUY. They are a game changer for climbing. I've reviewed them on my YouTube channel. Highly recommended. P.s. I have no affiliation with Mathias and purchased the ones I use on my MSuper V3s+ and MSX. I have the power pads, and yes they help. I never really rode any other wheels off road, but I can see how the MSX has a hard time down very steep hills because i find myself feeling like I would not be able to easily stop. ither way im still happy with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 37 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Yet if you were to ride the MSuper V3s+ or KS18XL down a very steep hill and compare the experience to the MSX, you would realize that steep downhills are not a strong point for the the MSX. The MSX is better that the Z10, but not the best 18-inch downhill rider. When I talk about steep downhills, I'm talking about a hill where you feel you are on the edge of the wheel falling away from you. I've nothing to compare than the MSX maybe i can compare when i get the ks16x ,, awaiting your stress test and review,, are you excited about that wheel? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 16 minutes ago, stephen said: I've nothing to compare than the MSX maybe i can compare when i get the ks16x ,, awaiting your stress test and review,, are you excited about that wheel? Thanks Pretty much any 16-inch will beat an 18-inch wheel. So certainly the 16X will be superior to the MSX or any other 18-inch wheel when it comes to climbing and descending. Yeah, I'm very excited to get the 16x. Hopefully in a couple of weeks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 36 minutes ago, irmatt said: I have the power pads, and yes they help. I never really rode any other wheels off road, but I can see how the MSX has a hard time down very steep hills because i find myself feeling like I would not be able to easily stop. ither way im still happy with it. Good to know. If you really enjoy trails and steep hills, add the MCM5 to your wish list. It'll be an eye opener to new trail possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancouver Wheeler Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Pretty much any 16-inch will beat an 18-inch wheel. So certainly the 16X will be superior to the MSX or any other 18-inch wheel when it comes to climbing and descending. Yeah, I'm very excited to get the 16x. Hopefully in a couple of weeks Can you elaborate on: "Pretty much any 16-inch will beat an 18-inch wheel"? The reason I ask is because aside from riding my V8, the only other wheel I tried is the KS 18XL. I found it not as torquey and as my V8. The same goes for the braking... was that just me? I found I could not get it to burst into acceleration to top speed like when I hammer on my V8 on a green light. Of course, it was a friend's KS 18XL who I just met that day, so maybe I just shy on hammering it hard enough. But even a long a paved street, I felt I could not get it to go past, say 25km/hr and it was already unlocked. So I am planning on getting the MSX when the shipment comes in 2 weeks... unless someone gives me reason to wait for the KS16X... 99% of my riding is on the street with fast moving cars and bicycles. Thanks, Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Tucker Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Vancouver Wheeler said: So I am planning on getting the MSX when the shipment comes in 2 weeks... unless someone gives me reason to wait for the KS16X... 99% of my riding is on the street with fast moving cars and bicycles. The MSX is the king of open street riding!!! Big and fat tire for rough road, fast and stiff responsiveness from pedal angle and firmware, high top speed, dependable and rugged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 3 hours ago, Vancouver Wheeler said: Can you elaborate on: "Pretty much any 16-inch will beat an 18-inch wheel"? The reason I ask is because aside from riding my V8, the only other wheel I tried is the KS 18XL. I found it not as torquey and as my V8. The same goes for the braking... was that just me? I found I could not get it to burst into acceleration to top speed like when I hammer on my V8 on a green light. Of course, it was a friend's KS 18XL who I just met that day, so maybe I just shy on hammering it hard enough. But even a long a paved street, I felt I could not get it to go past, say 25km/hr and it was already unlocked. So I am planning on getting the MSX when the shipment comes in 2 weeks... unless someone gives me reason to wait for the KS16X... 99% of my riding is on the street with fast moving cars and bicycles. Thanks, Allan It comes down to basic physics. Initiating the roll for an 18-inch diameter wheel takes a lot more energy than a 16 or 14 inch wheel. The 18-inch wheels (MSX & 18XL) are superior in top end speed and ride comfort but the smaller wheels will always be faster accelerators. The fastest wheel out of the gate is the MCM5 (14-inch). Next would probably be the Tesla. The ACM would be slower (heavy wheel) and the V10 series has a large 16-inch wheel which would keep it a bit on the slower side. Somewhere in there would be the V8. The MSX is a great street wheel because of its massive tire and high-end speed. Once it's moving, the acceleration is great. If you love the acceleration and agile nature of your V8 but just want a wheel with more power and range, the 16X may be ideal. If you don't need the range that comes with 1600wh, the Tesla would be the closest to your V8 but with a huge boost in speed and power. And it's substantially cheaper than the MSX and 16X. But if high acceleration out of the gate is not super important but you would instead love street comfort and speed, then go with the MSX. Hopefully I haven't contradicted myself above I better stop while I'm ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 36 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: If you love the acceleration and agile nature of your V8 but just want a wheel with more power and range, the 16X may be ideal. Er, on that acceleration part, this was not mine and the other demo participants' experiences with the wider 3" 16 tire on the Nikola. The 3" wide 16 of the Nikola felt very similar to the 3" wide of the MSX, with a little more pickup, but nowhere near the pickup of thinner tire (1.95-2.125") 14's and 16's. Same went for the like 2.5" wides in the 16 V10F and 18 KS18L/XL feels. I'm still not quite sure why this is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 47 minutes ago, houseofjob said: Er, on that acceleration part, this was not mine and the other demo participants' experiences with the wider 3" 16 tire on the Nikola. The 3" wide 16 of the Nikola felt very similar to the 3" wide of the MSX, with a little more pickup, but nowhere near the pickup of thinner tire (1.95-2.125") 14's and 16's. Same went for the like 2.5" wides in the 16 V10F and 18 KS18L/XL feels. I'm still not quite sure why this is. Maybe it's just the additional mass of the tire and extra batteries. Even though I have an ACM2 that I built with a Tesla motor, my Tesla feels faster. Tires are the same. I assume it's because the ACM2 weighs more because of all the extra batteries. EDIT: So yeah, if he's really into acceleration, go for a Tesla. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 8 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Maybe it's just the additional mass of the tire and extra batteries. Even though I have an ACM2 that I built with a Tesla motor, my Tesla feels faster. Tires are the same. I assume it's because the ACM2 weighs more because of all the extra batteries. It could possibly be a combination of tread pattern plus increased weight, where the grip is not enough to propel the heavier wheel. The Tesla tire pattern seems to be smooth down the center of the tread, not ideal for maximum grip I think. I wonder if the torque would be improved if the tire tread pattern was like the MCM5, where the treads are all horizontal and vertical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 I didn’t notice a change in acceleration when I modded my 16S to fit a 2.5” tire. And I tried several 2.5” tires. Then again, the overall feel and comfort was superior with the 2.5” that perhaps I just didn’t care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 1 hour ago, houseofjob said: It could possibly be a combination of tread pattern plus increased weight, where the grip is not enough to propel the heavier wheel. The Tesla tire pattern seems to be smooth down the center of the tread, not ideal for maximum grip I think. I wonder if the torque would be improved if the tire tread pattern was like the MCM5, where the treads are all horizontal and vertical. You really think the tread patterns has any affect on the acceleration speeds we're dealing with, and our body weight? It's not like the Tesla's tire is spinning trying get traction as we push forward. I'm referring to pavement riding, not trails where traction plays a part. I'll have to ponder this more. We need to fund an EUC testing lab. Instead of UL, we can go with EUL Certified Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiemoy Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 My theory has to do with how far the magnets and armature arm, the air gap is from the edge of the tire. The bigger the tire, the farther it is from the edge. If any of you ride a bike, specifically a multi speed bike, you will know that a 1/2 in change in the cog makes a HUGE difference. When you change the gear to move the chain out to a bigger cog, you feel like superman. On the other hand when you move the chain closer to the center, you feel like a baby. The further out from the center you are the easier it is to turn the wheel. The magnets/armature arm are equal to where you are turning the wheel. That is where the force is applied. Mind you we are talking about the same motor for both the 16" and 18". So all things being equal. Not comparing 14" to 16". But I'm thinking it has something to do with this as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 11 hours ago, Marty Backe said: It comes down to basic physics. Initiating the roll for an 18-inch diameter wheel takes a lot more energy than a 16 or 14 inch wheel. Speaking about basic physics, I would have thought that for comparing 18" with 16", the phrase "a lot" should roughly mean 18/16 - 1 = 12.5%. Not sure if this is what people usually associate with "a lot". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 2 hours ago, eddiemoy said: Not comparing 14" to 16". I think you should, since the difference in behaviour exists there as well, even when the magnets are at the edge of the rim on both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meelosh123 Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 Could just be the extra friction/resistance that the wider tires offer. The amount of torque the motor can provide may not be optimized for it, compared to the thinner tire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, Meelosh123 said: Could just be the extra friction/resistance that the wider tires offer. 16x2.5” vs 18x2.5” exhibit the same behaviour as well, albeit having the same width. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniVehje Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 2 hours ago, eddiemoy said: My theory has to do with how far the magnets and armature arm, the air gap is from the edge of the tire. The bigger the tire, the farther it is from the edge. If any of you ride a bike, specifically a multi speed bike, you will know that a 1/2 in change in the cog makes a HUGE difference. When you change the gear to move the chain out to a bigger cog, you feel like superman. On the other hand when you move the chain closer to the center, you feel like a baby. The further out from the center you are the easier it is to turn the wheel. The magnets/armature arm are equal to where you are turning the wheel. That is where the force is applied. Mind you we are talking about the same motor for both the 16" and 18". So all things being equal. Not comparing 14" to 16". But I'm thinking it has something to do with this as well. I think you are making it too complicated. It’s about gearing but simpler. This video explains quite well how the size affects speed and torque. Starting at 1.30 mins. The weight of the wheel will have some effect because of inertia, but not as big as simple gear ratio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 9 hours ago, Marty Backe said: You really think the tread patterns has any affect on the acceleration speeds we're dealing with, and our body weight? It's not like the Tesla's tire is spinning trying get traction as we push forward. I'm referring to pavement riding, not trails where traction plays a part. I'll have to ponder this more. We need to fund an EUC testing lab. Instead of UL, we can go with EUL Certified Yes, after I've experienced how drastically tires can possibly change the feel of the wheel, I do. Tire slip/grippage doesn't have to be to the severity of spin out, it can be more minute I think. Unfortunately we don't have a big variety in these tire sizings (different tread patterns, tire composition, etc) to conduct such an experiment, unfortunately 😢 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiemoy Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 22 minutes ago, mrelwood said: I think you should, since the difference in behaviour exists there as well, even when the magnets are at the edge of the rim on both. we've seen the motor to be different between the 14" and 16". but it seems to be the same principle. might be closer to a ratio of the wheel size to the location of the magnets, kind of like the manual unicycle below. 14 minutes ago, UniVehje said: I think you are making it too complicated. It’s about gearing but simpler. This video explains quite well how the size affects speed and torque. Starting at 1.30 mins. The weight of the wheel will have some effect because of inertia, but not as big as simple gear ratio. not everyone is familiar with the manual unicycle and the different size and crank arms. but I think if you are familiar with it, then it is the crank arm size as it relates to the size of the wheel. so on the EUC it is the size of the wheel in relation to the magnets. But it is definitely clearer to understand when looking at the different sized manual unicycles and the different crank arms. When i started learning on a 20" manual, i bought this cheap thing from amazon. i didn't realize the crank arms are short making it difficult for me to learn until i splurged on a nimbus with longer crank arms. i was able to learn much quicker when i switched. the longer crank arms made it so easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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