The state of the US health system

[meepmeepmayer]

Oh, it sounded like you bought the Luffy and 16S at the same time. The cheaper wheel first for testing makes much more sense.

And haha at the healthcare argument. But with EUCs, it's actually a serious consideration and a valid point. Wondering how many U.S. people won't ride due to lack of health insurance...

And shell blowouts are one thing, but possible cut-outs are a much worse one!

[Marty Backe]

4 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Oh, it sounded like you bought the Luffy and 16S at the same time. The cheaper wheel first for testing makes much more sense.

And haha at the healthcare argument. But with EUCs, it's actually a serious consideration and a valid point. Wondering how many U.S. people won't ride due to lack of health insurance...

And shell blowouts are one thing, but possible cut-outs are a much worse one!

It should be noted that not all Americans have health insurance, but all Americans have access to health care. If you don't have a nickle/dime/dollar to your name and you break your arm, you will still be transported to a hospital, admitted to the hospital, and any necessary surgery performed.

[Mono]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

It should be noted that not all Americans have health insurance, but all Americans have access to health care. If you don't have a nickle/dime/dollar to your name and you break your arm, you will still be transported to a hospital, admitted to the hospital, and any necessary surgery performed.

True in case of an emergency. I am not so sure otherwise. Allegedly thousands of people die every year because they don't get the proper health care early enough and quite some money is unnecessarily spent because many end up in the emergency room instead of going to the doctor before the emergency occurs. Not to mention those who go bankrupt from health care related bills. I wouldn't know to name first class sources for these claims without digging deeper though.

[Marty Backe]

32 minutes ago, Mono said:

True in case of an emergency. I am not so sure otherwise. Allegedly thousands of people die every year because they don't get the proper health care early enough and quite some money is unnecessarily spent because many end up in the emergency room instead of going to the doctor before the emergency occurs. Not to mention those who go bankrupt from health care related bills. I wouldn't know to name first class sources for these claims without digging deeper though.

You've never been to an emergency room in the United States (I have, multiple times). It's filled with people getting medical help who are certainly not experiencing an emergency and clearly have no insurance.

I'm not saying it's perfect (no such thing), but our medical system isn't as dire as some people would have you think.

[Mono]

14 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

You've never been to an emergency room in the United States

How could you possibly know? Maybe I have been even working in an US American emergency room, though that would have been before the Affordable Care Act era. I am time and again amazed over the presumptions that people use in their thought processes, but I guess that's just me 

[GoinPostal]

2 hours ago, Mono said:

How could you possibly know? Maybe I have been even working in an US American emergency room, though that would have been before the Affordable Care Act era. I am time and again amazed over the presumptions that people use in their thought processes, but I guess that's just me 

Because had you worked in an emergency room, you would know from first hand experience that Marty Backe’s statement is dead on accurate. 

[Mono]

3 hours ago, GoinPostal said:

Because had you worked in an emergency room, you would know from first hand experience that Marty Backe’s statement is dead on accurate. 

Where have I suggested it was not accurate apart from the assumption that I have never seen an US emergency room from the inside? If I have please tell me, I am happy to revise my post.

[Marty Backe]

5 hours ago, Mono said:

How could you possibly know? Maybe I have been even working in an US American emergency room, though that would have been before the Affordable Care Act era. I am time and again amazed over the presumptions that people use in their thought processes, but I guess that's just me 

I made a generalized statement. The vast majority of Americans don't work in emergency rooms. Since you live in Western Europe the likelihood of you working in an American emergency room is even slightly lower.

You probably shouldn't read all comments so literally 

[Mono]

6 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

You probably shouldn't read all comments so literally 

I know. It's just sometimes too difficult to change habits.

9 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I made a generalized statement. The vast majority of Americans don't work in emergency rooms. Since you live in Western Europe [...]

Your generalized statement though was about having been in an emergency room, not working there. To assume someone has never been in an US emergency room is a much bolder assumption, even for a foreigner from Europe, which I am.

Then yes, it is a pretty reasonable assumption that I currently don't work in an US emergency room.

[Smoother]

On 21/12/2017 at 9:36 PM, Marty Backe said:

It's filled with people getting medical help who are certainly not experiencing an emergency and clearly have no insurance.

I'm not sure this statement can be used to defend a healthy functioning health care system, the exact opposite actually. Relying on an ER to provide primary health care is a catastrophic system failure .  And before people start typing your "how would you know, you're English? " reply. know that I lived most of my adult life, so far, in the US, college, marriage, mortgage, 2.5 pets, the whole nine yards. Dated an agencyER specialist Physician Assistant for a few years too, so I've seen the inside of a few ERs. Counted several oncologists and surgeons as friends. I have some stories, believe me. 

But, I'm not US bashing, I love the US, but just like every country, it's got its problems. 

[Marty Backe]

52 minutes ago, Smoother said:

I'm not sure this statement can be used to defend a healthy functioning health care system, the exact opposite actually. Relying on an ER to provide primary health care is a catastrophic system failure .  And before people start typing your "how would you know, you're English? " reply. know that I lived most of my adult life, so far, in the US, college, marriage, mortgage, 2.5 pets, the whole nine yards. Dated an agencyER specialist Physician Assistant for a few years too, so I've seen the inside of a free ERs. Counted several oncologists and surgeons as friends. I have some stories, believe me. 

But, I'm not US bashing, I love the US, but just like every country, it's got its problems. 

I only added my emergency room commentary because @meepmeepmayer suggested that Americans without health insurance may not try EUCs because of the risk of getting injured. That may not be a valid argument because they could still get medical help. I imply nothing else beyond this context.

[LanghamP]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I only added my emergency room commentary because @meepmeepmayer suggested that Americans without health insurance may not try EUCs because of the risk of getting injured. That may not be a valid argument because they could still get medical help. I imply nothing else beyond this context.

They won't be able to get their second EUC because even upper middle class patients with insurance often find it difficult to pay for even moderate procedures. Uninsured patients are charged about four times compared to the same procedure, and no clinic/hospital can tell you what the cost of the procedure is until the procedure is undergone. Medical bills cause more personal bankruptcies than all other reasons combined, and car accidents are the single biggest reason you're likely to end up in a hospital. 

Have you ever looked at your payroll taxes? Not just your income but every tax on your dollar? If you have then it won't surprise you to see that taking care of old people takes about 70% of the federal budget, with costs expected to rise to 90% by 2030. Yes, you're paying for encumbrances on a depreciating non working asset whose demographics own the most property with the biggest tax breaks... 

[litewave]

39 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

If you have then it won't surprise you to see that taking care of old people takes about 70% of the federal budget, with costs expected to rise to 90% by 2030. Yes, you're paying for encumbrances on a depreciating non working asset whose demographics own the most property with the biggest tax breaks... 

Please provide your sources.

[LanghamP]

13 minutes ago, litewave said:

Please provide your sources.

Apologies. 

I have no sources. All lies. Old sick non working people provide the industrial engine upon which this mighty nation depends upon. 

[litewave]

10 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

Apologies. 

I have no sources. All lies. Old sick non working people provide the industrial engine upon which this mighty nation depends upon. 

Eh, mate, did you forget to take your meds again?

[Mono]

5 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I only added my emergency room commentary because @meepmeepmayer suggested that Americans without health insurance may not try EUCs because of the risk of getting injured. That may not be a valid argument because they could still get medical help. I imply nothing else beyond this context.

They get emergency help, but isn't the problem that they go bankrupt afterwards when they have to pay the bill? Medical care in the US in itself is pretty decent, but the problem is that some people (a minority, but still a considerable number of people) get into troubles being able to pay for it.

It's hard to see that this would have a significant effect on EUC use though.

[Marty Backe]

4 hours ago, LanghamP said:

They won't be able to get their second EUC because even upper middle class patients with insurance often find it difficult to pay for even moderate procedures. Uninsured patients are charged about four times compared to the same procedure, and no clinic/hospital can tell you what the cost of the procedure is until the procedure is undergone. Medical bills cause more personal bankruptcies than all other reasons combined, and car accidents are the single biggest reason you're likely to end up in a hospital. 

Have you ever looked at your payroll taxes? Not just your income but every tax on your dollar? If you have then it won't surprise you to see that taking care of old people takes about 70% of the federal budget, with costs expected to rise to 90% by 2030. Yes, you're paying for encumbrances on a depreciating non working asset whose demographics own the most property with the biggest tax breaks... 

I call BS on this.

Upper middle class with insurance have difficulty paying for procedures??? Really???

Regarding the Old People number, take a gander at this chart

[LanghamP]

47 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I call BS on this.

Upper middle class with insurance have difficulty paying for procedures??? Really???

Regarding the Old People number, take a gander at this chart

We gotta stop thread hijacking. We're as bad as the Nazis. Possibly worse. 

Are upper middle class people with health insurance and a catastrophe declaring bankruptcy? Are they the biggest group doing so? 

Dig a bit deeper and see how many of them have disability insurance. 

What is the biggest tax break for individuals? Could it be...housing? All those tax dollars to create wealth while forgoing taxes. Could the biggest purveyors of such a regressive tax system be, oh, California? No way! Them be liberals there! 

Old people consume the majority of tax dollars. If you include tax breaks old people disproportionately get, such as that for housing, then we can state old people are presently consuming almost all the tax dollars including those you're suppose to collect but don't because of who you are. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/grandparents-raiding-grandchildren/548117/

What would an economy devoted to taking care of old people's bodies and their investments look like? Maybe like this?? 

http://www.stltoday.com/business/columns/david-nicklaus/a-decade-later-the-recession-has-caused-big-changes-in/article_c6be3164-49a1-50fd-b24b-23b8607b3962.html

[RayRay]

On 12/23/2017 at 9:02 PM, LanghamP said:

Old people consume the majority of tax dollars. If you include tax breaks old people disproportionately get, such as that for housing, then we can state old people are presently consuming almost all the tax dollars including those you're suppose to collect but don't because of who you are.

In the article it is stated, "Even before the newly-minted GOP tax plan passed the Senate, adding a whopping $1.5 trillion to the national debt in order to give away the store to corporations and the wealthiest Americans, these lawmakers were already “discovering” that their own profligacy requires bringing down the deficit by (you guessed it) cutting entitlements."

The latest projected 2018 estimates by the OMB tell the whole story. The rest of us (not-so-rich) won't get our big tax cut until we stop codling (i.e. taking care of) all these damn old people. (Oh, and don't get me started on young people...)

Graphs don't lie (or do they?)...

[Rehab1]

7 hours ago, LanghamP said:

They won't be able to get their second EUC because even upper middle class patients with insurance often find it difficult to pay for even moderate procedures. Uninsured patients are charged about four times compared to the same procedure, and no clinic/hospital can tell you what the cost of the procedure is until the procedure is undergone.

Wow did this topic get derailed. First I have worked in emergency rooms and have never heard of a case where uninsured patients are being charged 4Xs the prevailing rate for a procedure. Second: hospitals are required to tell you what the cost of an elective procedure is.

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Rehab1 said:

Wow did this topic get derailed. First I have worked in emergency rooms and have never heard of a case where uninsured patients are being charged 4Xs the prevailing rate for a procedure. Second: hospitals are required to tell you what the cost of an elective procedure is.

[The Fat Unicyclist]

And you people say that @Hunka Hunka Burning Love and I are "distracting!"

[Keith]

I’ve moved these posts into its own off topic thread.

Just to put the wonderful UK National Health System into perspective, I got stressed/bullied at work until I had a breakdown and was forced to take early retirement, before that I was paying well over 50% of my salary in tax and national insurance for years. That breakdown seemed to ruin my health such that I’ve gone from good fitness to developing quite bad cataracts and losing several teeth in less than 2 years. 3 times my optician has insisted my eyes need replacement lenses and each time the NHS hospital says they do not, despite not being able to drive at night or fly my models anymore. Privately, which of course I neither have or can afford insurance for, will be £4000 to have them done. At the same time my dentist tells me that if I do not fit implants the bone in my jaw will waste away, I.e. dentures are not a good idea, to have 3 teeth replaced that way will be £4400 - NHS support for dentistry is pretty much non-existent, even dentures are likely to not leave much change from £1000.

So despite having paid into a system all my life, when I need it, it is not there, I wonder if I would have been any worst off with the American system?

[Rehab1]

2 hours ago, Keith said:

So despite having paid into a system all my life, when I need it, it is not there, I wonder if I would have been any worst off with the American system?

My stress increased just reading your post. I’m sorry your employer did not intervene on your behalf when you were bullied. In America you can sue an employer for a unsafe work environment. Nothing makes me more angry as I work with disabled children that suffer from bullying daily.

Hard to say if the  America healthcare system would have offered you anymore assistance over the UK system. There are myths that the UK healthcare system is slower in treating patients but I’m not sure that is 100% correct. Best wishes!

[nute]

My wife is american and her family live in the US although we and our family are in the UK. Between 2002 and 2007  my dad and my father in law died of similar diseases, one in the UK and the other in the US. Neither had a good experience with their respective healthcare systems in their own different ways and frankly i don't feel there is much to choose between either system. Both are OK but flawed.

I also have several friends who live in France, one of whom was a brit who's diagnosed with an unpleasant cancer in the UK (after being told on several occasions the lump was benign and not to worry about it) who told him it was only treatable with a particular drug which the NHS were not at the time able to supply. His life expectancy was just a few months. After visiting the relevant specialist in France he was given the drugs he needed straight away and went on to live for almost 6 years. Its likely that if his GP had diagnosed it correctly in the first place he would still be alive now. 

If I'm going to have a serious medical problem i know where I'd rather live.