edwin_rm Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 The attached image explains what happenned better. I had a fully charged battery and the trolley handle fully extended. Walking like that on a sidewalk holding the KS16 handle pushing the wheel, I approached a near 1' high drop. With the handle extended I continue to the drop, which caused the wheel to accelerate and shut off while in the lower floor. After that, it never turned back on ever again! Neither the power button nor the auxiliary speakers button work. Wheel stays off! The charger still recognizes the battery as full as well. What should I look for after I open it? And what tools do I need? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 Sorry to hear this buddy. Normally ks wheels can withstand such a drop. When the wheel hit the lower elevation, did it land on a tire or on something else? Smell the wheel - is there a burning / plastic smell coming out? When you freeroll the wheel does it roll easy or difficult? yes you need to open your wheel. If you are lucky you will be able to see what happened and maybe some connector/ wire came off that you can fix. You will need to open and look insode and possible post pictures so we can see. Again, if you are lucky and if its not the control board, it may be a battery fuse on the battery that is connected downstream of the first battery and closer to the control board. It is u likely that the battery connectors came loose but theoretically possible if they were not secured well at the factory. Another "lucky" possibility would be if maybe the wires on the control board that go to the engine got loose. Just edited my post to add a coupke of things. 1) you are super lucky you discovered this condition while rolling and not riding 2) only open the wheel if you are comfortable dealing with whats inside and possibly handling the batteries, etc. if you are not comfortable, talk to your distributor first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 I would check fuses (bms/ Main board?). Current peak while spinning up the motor and than a break while landing on ground? Should be less than in riding conditions. I made this a couple of time with my MSuper with no faults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 Sorry this happened! @OliverH and @Cloud and others in this forum should be able to help resolve your issue. On a lighter note, based on your drawing you appear to be in desperate need of some serious physical therapy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 If everything has died including the Bluetooth but the charger still connects and sees a full battery, surely the most likely scenario is that the battery has come unplugged from the motherboard as a result of the bump. The charger connection is a completely seperate connection to the battery/BMS. If it is the same as the KS-14 the battery to motherboard connector is a mustard coloured XT-60 connector and the battery to charge port is a red Dean's type connector. There is also, I believe, a permanent (I.e. Soldered in) fuse on the motherboard that could blow but I would have thought it unlikely that what you did would have resulted in excessive current? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 By the way, why is the charger recognizing the batery as full? If youve been rolling the wheel the battery should not be full. This may indicate that the charger wire got loose. However the charging connection getting loose should have no effect on the operation of the wheel - it should still come on. Perhaps @edwin_rmyou meant that you plugged in the charger after this happened and charged the battery to full and the charger turned itself off. in any case, i believe it is more likely that the fuse in the battery burnt than the battery connector, but it could be either. It has to be the battery closer to the control board ( closer in terms of being immediately upstream of the control board). If the other battery connected in series broke the wheel wouls still come one ( however i dont have the 16" and maybe ks arranged those batteries is series, but i doubt it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin_rm Posted July 2, 2016 Author Share Posted July 2, 2016 This happenned at my house. I had not not ride the wheel yet, after charging it. I was walking and pushing it on the sidewalk pathway that leads from my house to the street. After the 1 foot drop, the wheel spun really fast then shut off (the wheel touched ground + bounced while spinning, I held handle entire time). I was still holding the extended handle, meaning, it never fell sideways on the ground. I held it straight. The blown fuse theory makes sense. I will open it up when I get the chance, and upload some photos here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addwyn Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 1 hour ago, edwin_rm said: The blown fuse theory makes sense. Yes. i agree : On 02/05/2016 at 6:02 PM, Addwyn said: I have opened mine (because the main fuse had burned)... https://www.espritroue.fr/topic/668-kingsong-ks16b-vue-de-lintérieur/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 Why is it so easy to burn out the fuse on these? It sounds like it doesn't take a lot to do it if it's that common. Now imagine being 20 kms away from home or your car out in the middle of no where when it happens... Maybe an external resettable fuse button might be a good mod or do people think this is a once in a blue moon event? Some disassembly info here: I just had a thought - if you're riding with someone else, I wonder if you could limp home by holding onto the forward rider's belt loop or waist while balancing on the dead EUC. There wouldn't be any self-balance assist so it might be super tricky. I wonder if that could help tow someone home... You would have to grip onto the case with the inner legs though... EDIT - nope nope scratch that idea - I just tried standing on my Ninebot while holding onto some chairs and it's super unstable. The wheel can shoot out so easily from under you. Or it would be nice to have a spare training wheel that can be attached onto the rear mount that extends down effectively transforming the EUC into a two wheeled scooter for emergencies... I don't know if that would work either. Maybe two rigid tether bars that attaches onto the rear sides of a tow EUC and the other end onto sides the dead EUC... or maybe two bars connected at the pedals so the riders move side by side? Just thinking about how to handle contingences... there's probably no easy way to do it unless it's purposely designed into a pair of EUC's from the start, and the frequency of needing to do so likely makes it not worthwhile. I have heard of people using a tether rope to tow a low battery EUC rider that still has enough power for self-balancing. A dead wheel is a whole different complication. I wonder if two EUC riders going side by side, if they had their inner feet forwards slightly whether the third person could stand on the back of the pedal while he holds the two riders' shoulders... the two riders could hold the dead EUC with one hand each in the middle in front of the third passenger. LOL it would definitely look like a circus act, but it might be possible... Or maybe the best choice is just to say "Bye bye - you're so screwed. It's 20 miles back home. See you in about 8-10 hours!" to the unfortunate rider and glide off into the sunset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin_rm Posted July 3, 2016 Author Share Posted July 3, 2016 Eureka! After opening up the machine, I noticed that all plugs were in place. Nothing was disconnected. Then, I checked the fuse for the first battery pack, and it was fine. Then I checked the fuse of the second battery pack, and it was also fine. So I opened up the top to access the control board. Everything looks fine, except, I take out the third fuse, the one attached to the control board, and it was burned! So, in other words, that's the culprit. Now I need to figure out how to acquire a new 40A pink fuse... I need to acquire replacement for that burned fuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 I wonder why that fuse burnt out in the first place though. Dropping down 12" might give it a second to spin up then suddenly stop when it hits the lower level. Does that sudden power spike and quick stop overload the board? People ride and drop down sidewalks and other heights - my question is will it burn out again if you're riding and hop down an 8" drop or 9" drop or do you need to turn it off before going down a 12" drop? It would be nice to figure out the reason why the fuse blew in the first place because if it did it once.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason McNeil Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 1 hour ago, edwin_rm said: Now I need to figure out how to acquire a new 40A pink fuse... @edwin_rm, sorry, just seen this thread. If you're not able to independently locate one, I'll be able to send you a couple in the post when I get back on Wednesday. KS are now include a spare fuse with each purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason McNeil Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 1 hour ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said: It would be nice to figure out the reason why the fuse blew in the first place because if it did it once.... From what I'm aware of, both on & off the forums, all the fuse blowouts, except one , were when the rider was doing something unusual & off the Wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin_rm Posted July 3, 2016 Author Share Posted July 3, 2016 1 hour ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said: I wonder why that fuse burnt out in the first place though. Dropping down 12" might give it a second to spin up then suddenly stop when it hits the lower level. Does that sudden power spike and quick stop overload the board? People ride and drop down sidewalks and other heights - my question is will it burn out again if you're riding and hop down an 8" drop or 9" drop or do you need to turn it off before going down a 12" drop? It would be nice to figure out the reason why the fuse blew in the first place because if it did it once.... Probably due to the sudden braking power after holding it with the extended handle while the wheel is lifted/spinning + touching the floor afterwards. It is best that, if the wheel is spinning in the air, to let it cut off before placing it back on the ground. When It touched the ground, it was still spinning. Kinda like holding a dog with a leash that is trying to run away. 10 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said: @edwin_rm, sorry, just seen this thread. If you're not able to independently locate one, I'll be able to send you a couple in the post when I get back on Wednesday. KS are now include a spare fuse with each purchase. I would greatly appreciate it! I just came back from visiting a few auto shops + radio shack. None of them sell mini 40A fuses! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 55 minutes ago, edwin_rm said: Probably due to the sudden braking power after holding it with the extended handle while the wheel is lifted/spinning + touching the floor afterwards. It is best that, if the wheel is spinning in the air, to let it cut off before placing it back on the ground. When It touched the ground, it was still spinning. Kinda like holding a dog with a leash that is trying to run away. I would greatly appreciate it! I just came back from visiting a few auto shops + radio shack. None of them sell mini 40A fuses! I went thru the process of trying to find the fuses also , in the past. They dont sell them at 40a at that size. You could use two 20a each in parallel but of course its better to use one thats meant for it. It's nice of Jason to offer you one. i also have a spare one. If something doesnt work out i can also send you one. Jason's may end up being faster as i sometimes have trouble getting to the post office in their working hours. question for you @edwin_rm. During this episode, right before the fuse blew, was the wheel suddenly rapidly stopped from rotating, going from a whatever speed to zero instantly? For example, because you held on to the handle, the friction with the pavement may have stopped the rotating wheel from turning instantly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEC Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 You can get fuses online for example at aliexpress and as @Jason McNeil already mentioned they are now included as spare with new KS16s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 10 minutes ago, HEC said: You can get fuses online for example at aliexpress and as @Jason McNeil already mentioned they are now included as spare with new KS16s. He can get them online but they wait for delivery will kill him! Unless he has other wheels he can ride in the meantime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEC Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 23 minutes ago, Cloud said: He can get them online but they wait for delivery will kill him! Unless he has other wheels he can ride in the meantime. Indeed that was just and example. Hopefully he will get one from @Jason McNeil quickly and then can order some (life time supply of) spares;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 8 hours ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said: I wonder why that fuse burnt out in the first place though. Dropping down 12" might give it a second to spin up then suddenly stop when it hits the lower level. Does that sudden power spike and quick stop overload the board? People ride and drop down sidewalks and other heights - my question is will it burn out again if you're riding and hop down an 8" drop or 9" drop or do you need to turn it off before going down a 12" drop? It would be nice to figure out the reason why the fuse blew in the first place because if it did it once.... 6 hours ago, edwin_rm said: Probably due to the sudden braking power after holding it with the extended handle while the wheel is lifted/spinning + touching the floor afterwards. It is best that, if the wheel is spinning in the air, to let it cut off before placing it back on the ground. When It touched the ground, it was still spinning. Kinda like holding a dog with a leash that is trying to run away. Purely speculating, but the back-EMF (generated voltage) of the motor will drop to 0V when the motor isn't spinning. If the mainboard is at the same time trying to drive it at full speed (high voltage), the voltage difference between the motor and the mainboard/bridges will go to the extreme, and the current will shoot to "some fairly high value" Also, inductors (motor coils) tend to spike a large voltage when the power is suddenly cut, don't know if that could play a role here. Nevertheless, while fuses aren't exactly a bad idea, I wonder if they should up their ratings more? Some higher amperage value that shouldn't happen unless something is really, really wrong, like a short circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xima Lhotz Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 Try a motorcycle shop as these fuses are used in bikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 I used to climb/get down short stairs many times with turned on wheel and extracted handle. In order to prevent the full spinning, I touched the wheel from time to time to the stairs. So far, so good, but after reading this thread I may reconsider this technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 It just strikes me as odd that such a simple action would blow the fuse like that as you see people riding and doing 180 turns on wheels and go in the opposite direction quite quickly. If the spike is due to something similar to a power brake action where the wheel is spinning quickly and someone brakes really hard creating an inverted current spike that I can undestand, but can it be that easy to do by hand to create the same amount of current? So if one were to do a lift test (lift and tilt forwards 15 degrees for example) to maximum speed and then suddenly tilt the wheel in the air in the opposite direction to simulate a power brake you could blow the fuse too? @edwin_rm when the wheel was spinning in the air as you lowered it did you tilt the case suddenly backwards as the wheel touched the ground? If @Jason McNeil can log voltage and power characteristics during a ride, why can't manufacturers do this as well over various terrain and situations (power brake, lift and drop test, lift and sudden reverse power test, etc) to measure the characteristics of these wheels and adjust their hardware to make sure the wheels don't die so easily? Putting a fuse in is nice to protect the control board, but what's protecting the rider? To me it's like selling a car that people are trusting their flesh and bones with that hasn't been thoroughly tested for safety or well thought through enough. A power brake situation should not blow the electrical system in a car nor should it on an electric vehicle. Can you imagine needing to change a fuse on your brand new car just because you had to brake really hard once? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 @edwin_rm: if possible you should try to get the original fuses - there are more characteristics for a fuse than just the amperage (fast, slow, etc...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 10 hours ago, esaj said: Purely speculating, but the back-EMF (generated voltage) of the motor will drop to 0V when the motor isn't spinning. If the mainboard is at the same time trying to drive it at full speed (high voltage), the voltage difference between the motor and the mainboard/bridges will go to the extreme, and the current will shoot to "some fairly high value" Also, inductors (motor coils) tend to spike a large voltage when the power is suddenly cut, don't know if that could play a role here. I think you hit the nail on the head here @esaj Quote 7 hours ago, DS said: I used to climb/get down short stairs many times with turned on wheel and extracted handle. In order to prevent the full spinning, I touched the wheel from time to time to the stairs. So far, so good, but after reading this thread I may reconsider this technique. I do this all the time myself, but when you press the tyre down to the stairs it still spins a bit and then stops, this is the difference why your fuse is not blowing 7 hours ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said: It just strikes me as odd that such a simple action would blow the fuse like that as you see people riding and doing 180 turns on wheels and go in the opposite direction quite quickly. If the spike is due to something similar to a power brake action where the wheel is spinning quickly and someone brakes really hard creating an inverted current spike that I can undestand, but can it be that easy to do by hand to create the same amount of current? So if one were to do a lift test (lift and tilt forwards 15 degrees for example) to maximum speed and then suddenly tilt the wheel in the air in the opposite direction to simulate a power brake you could blow the fuse too? I have a theory here which is based on what happened to me once. I had fuses blown twice on my wheels. The first time is not directly related to this situation so i will skip right to the 2nd time. Sometimes i roll into the diner that i go to near where i live. I ride right up to the low bar stool and sit on it. The heigt of the underside of the bar stoll is about the same as the height of the unicycle with the troller handle. As i turn around so sit on it, the top of the trolley handle is sometimes caught under the bar stool and cant get out. At the same time, as it gets in there at an angle, the wheel is trying to move as it is at an angle to the ground, but it cant as the trolley is stuck. So it cannot move and it cannot become horizontal either. At these moments i realize that the motor must be drawing lots of amps from the battery if i dont do something it may burn. So i just quickly press the off button and the wheel shuts down before some damage happens. Now this was just to explain this scenario. The fuse never blew under the bar stool. But keep reading - One time i was on the brooklyn bridge and my feet got tired , i decided to ride to a bench and sit on it to rest. As i was rolling on to the bench, i didtnt reaaly stop first to turn around and sit, i rolled to it and while the wheel was still in slow motion. the trolley handle got under the bench so that the wheel could not move any longer, much like it gets under the bar stool. The fuse blew instantly. There wasnt even a second delay. Keep in mind the speed was slow but the wheel was stopped from turning while being at an angle that the gyro would call the wheel to keep turning. i believe something like this could have hapoened here, and only @edwin_rm can answer if it did. @HunkaHunkaBurningLove, the reason it doesnt happen when people turn 180 while riding may be because this diesnt happen instantly, they just brake or twist around but the motor still has time to brake and that distributes the current increase over time. In my opinion the situations where the wheel goes from any speed to zero instantly, especially if the wheel is not horizontal should be avoided. I agree that the rating of the fuse should be in reased , however, only if what the fuse protects downstream of it can handle the increased current. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 1 hour ago, Cloud said: One time i was on the brooklyn bridge and my feet got tired , i decided to ride to a bench and sit on it to rest. As i was rolling on to the bench, i didtnt reaaly stop first to turn around and sit, i rolled to it and while the wheel was still in slow motion. the trolley handle got under the bench so that the wheel could not move any longer, much like it gets under the bar stool. The fuse blew instantly. There wasnt even a second delay. Keep in mind the speed was slow but the wheel was stopped from turning while being at an angle that the gyro would call the wheel to keep turning. People with Ninebots have reported similar situations, except that it usually seems to end with burnt-out MOSFETs because there isn't a fuse. So the good news is that the fuse was doing its job. I think the KS is using a 40-amp automotive fuse? They tend to be pretty slow-blow and I'd rather have the fuse go than the MOSFETs. Here are the 40A fuses I used to shunt the BMS and according to the curve they will take about 100A for 1 second before blowing. http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bussmann/Electrical/Resources/product-datasheets-b/bus-ele-ds-2009-atc.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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