Extremebull Commander Pro (134.4v,3600wh,suspension)

[BKW]

 

@9:02 of this video you can see the sherman-s and the EBCP suspensions going off the same set of stairs and how much better the Sherman-s rebound(?) is.

(Timestamped above)

Edited March 7, 2023 by BKW

[TheNotoriousEUC]

I am chomping at the bit and the waiting is killing me. I’ve been on this ride since last May! Like others here I have it down to the Sherman-S and EBCP and I am heavily leaning on the Commander Pro. Going into this whole process I knew I wasn’t going to jump on a Batch 1 of anything. I feel for someone like me a Batch 3 is the safest or safer bet. I like the modifications this B2 wheel has. It’s not a lot but it is an improvement. I really like the modification of the mud guard running beneath. I think a good option is to use a MTB mud guard modified a bit to fit on there rather than use the stock one that Marty seems to hate so much. As B3 rolls out the charging port issue will/should be resolved and maybe a few other tweaks to improve build quality. My only worry is once they fix the charging port, what will that mess up? Lol.

[pioneer]

From the latest Denis Hagov's review, his main concerns are:

• fewer adjustments for the suspension than in Sherman S, he wasn't able to fine-tune the suspension for his weight (110 kg I can remember)
• the rollers at the bottom of the suspension will pick up mud and the roller bearings will rust over time, requiring maintenance and even replacement at least once a month (although not battle-tested and likely will not be tested, so this looks more like an educated guess than factual experience)
• poor flimsy handle that is too low to roll the wheel in a supermarket without leaning forward
• less reactive braking compared to Sherman S

[Bustapalapno]

16 hours ago, Cerbera said:

Its weight, and the management of it is rather its saving grace in terms of ride feel and epic ruggedness - I wouldn't count that out of the race so easily - it's a phenomenal wheel by all accounts, and a bit of a step up in quality from Begode, and, IMO at least, rather better quality than you'd be getting here. I don't dislike the CP, and they have certainly tidied up the inside a bit, but that EX-30 is a proper beast, and possibly the Pinnacle of the Master-derived designs, whereas the CP is almost a 'Batch 1' situation if you buy it now. The Sherman is nice and all, but 100v is already a bit 'last years voltage'...

I hate this idea of 100v being "last years voltage." Voltage is only one part of the power equation. Noobs especially will not be taking advantage of that power. Even as a solidly intermediate rider, I rarely am hitting 80% power on my 100v wheel due to where and how I ride. Discounting a (hopefully) well built, well designed wheel with best-in-class suspension just because the voltage is small is naive at best. 

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, Bustapalapno said:

I hate this idea of 100v being "last years voltage."

Actually me too, but I am aware that there are people that really care about that, which was the only reason I mentioned it.

[The Brahan Seer]

6 hours ago, BKW said:

If so, it's about the same price, stock.

Sorry I was just going on what aliexpress sells them for as a very rough guide of the difference. 

Which seems to be  Sherman S £3400, EX30 £3000 and CP £2600. At £2600 seems quite a compelling price but maybe we can't get it that cheap from local dealers.

I think if you want a specific batch you could ask you preferred trusted dealer to get you one if they usually stock that item. Sounds like the next batch produced at the end of March will have everything you needed fixed re the charge port. I'm not sure if dealers buy very many of new batch wheels unless they have significant interest in pre-orders so I wouldn't be too concerned about them sending you an old batch especially if you ask for new batch otherwise you would just send it back and they don't want to waste their or your time. 

My first year was event free re changing tyres and then year 2 I have had a couple of punctures plus needed to change tyre due to wear and tare so I'm over changing them now. Feels a real chore to me on my S18. 

[techyiam]

17 hours ago, BKW said:

At this point, it just comes down to price for me. Do I go with my excitement and get this wheel, or do I go with the better suspension but 100v Sherman-S? The ex30 is a good wheel but I don't like the bulkiness of it or the weight. I know if I go with the EBCP I'm getting a less quality wheel compared tot he others I mentioned, so I'll take a hit on that aspect.

In the US at eWheels, the Commander Pro and the Sherman-S are going for about the same price ($150 difference) .

Since your use case is primarily food delivery in NYC, and this wheel has to last you for a long time, I would think the Sherman-S would be the better choice.

I suspect the suspension struts on the Sherman-S is of higher quality, and perform better, aside from the fact the Sherman-S has better build quality in general 

The 100-volt drive system doesn't seem to be holding back the Sherman-S too much. People seem to be happy with the torque, and the top speed is quite respectable in the high speed mode.

If you don't mind working on your own wheel, and can manage to get a deal on the Commander Pro, then perhaps the Commander Pro would be interesting. Yeah, the few things they managed to improve is nice, but without being able to see one in person is a bit risky, since we are told that the quality is lower, but we don't know by how much.

 

Being able to ride them in person would be ideal,  and less chance of being disappointed. Sometimes, after a test ride, your mind can change 180 degrees in a flash?

 

So far though, it appears many Sherman-S owners are quite happy with their Sherman-S.

My 2 cents.

[CrabChampion]

21 hours ago, BKW said:

After that, I'm done with EUC purchases for a long time

I think with this in mind, the 100v of the sherman-s just wont cut it. It doesnt scream futureproof to me as 100v is pretty much already previous gen. I am still iffy on the origami construction holding up long term as well. Leaperkim is rumored to be moving onto 126v for their next 16" wheel as well, leaving 100v behind. This generation of large suspension wheels will be my last purchase for a long time as well so modularity and ease of repair in the next 3 years is a major point for me.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Cobaltsaber

[KiwiMark]

3 hours ago, Cobaltsaber said:

I think with this in mind, the 100v of the sherman-s just wont cut it. It doesnt scream futureproof to me as 100v is pretty much already previous gen.

I don't understand. If you buy a wheel with 100V battery and it works fine, why shouldn't the 100V be fine for the life of the wheel? How is it any less futureproof than any other voltage?

[EUC Sharkman]

There’s a lot of missing context when folks see 100v vs. 134v but the way I understand it, it comes down to this. Regarding Begode 100v wheels, they come in two motor variants, High Torque (HT), or High Speed (HS). HT wheels had that zippy acceleration and power to climb hills but were limited in top end speed. HS wheels had that desirable top end speed but hill climbing power and hard acceleration stressed that motor out. You can hear that motor grunting.

 

Begode 134V wheels only come in one variant that uses the HT motor but with the higher voltage, they also now have the top end speed of the HS motors. Now you can finally have the best of both previous 100v wheels in one. Less stress in the motor, Nno motor grunting, more leniency regarding cutouts. When people talk about future proofing or whatnot, I think they’re likely talking about what it is they are sacrificing when getting that 100v wheel, torque or speed, in comparison to what 134v wheels now currently offer.

[CrabChampion]

51 minutes ago, KiwiMark said:

I don't understand. If you buy a wheel with 100V battery and it works fine, why shouldn't the 100V be fine for the life of the wheel? How is it any less futureproof than any other voltage?

I cant get a 100v wheel where I am because they are already falling behind at the back of grouprides. Same reason why most people outgrow an 84v wheel and its safer to start on a 100v wheel so you dont need to buy a new wheel relatively sooner. 84v wheels seem to just be learner or casual commuting wheel roles in todays landscape. Getting a 126v or 134v means you wont outgrow its powerband as quickly (hopefully) and you wont be looking to upgrade sooner than you expected. Especially with every other manufacturer producing wheels higher than 100v and most people gravitating towards the latest and greatest. That is what I mean by futureproof. By going with the higher voltage, you wont need to upgrade as soon down the line as the technology keeps evolving. I think this is an even bigger factor if you arent planning on buying a new wheel in the next 3 or so years

Edited March 8, 2023 by Cobaltsaber

[techyiam]

3 minutes ago, Cobaltsaber said:

I cant get a 100v wheel where I am because they are already falling behind at the back of grouprides.

On a Sherman-S, I highly doubt a skilled rider would be trailing behind in group rides. You guys are not riding 90+ km/h. There plainly are not enough hospital beds to accommodate the riders coming in from the carnage. 🙂

It appears Leaper Kim managed to pull two rabbits out of a hat.

(1) On their first try, they managed to come up with the best suspension so far. Suspension action is butter smooth, and is unprecedented. 

(2) With only 100-volt system voltage, they managed to come up with a motor drive system that is both torquey, and has a high top speed. The top speed is not the highest, but it up there. Most owners are not going to bomb down the road at 56+ mph. They just want lots of headroom. 

Only the EX30 may have an edge in top speed, but it is not significant in the real world. The higher the cruising speed, the higher exponentially the consumption rate; you would need to recharge too soon. Since most wheels these days have 3600Wh or less, the Sherman-S will be relevant for a while.

[CrabChampion]

3 minutes ago, techyiam said:

On a Sherman-S, I highly doubt a skilled rider would be trailing behind in group rides. You guys are not riding 90+ km/h. There plainly are not enough hospital beds to accommodate the riders coming in from the carnage. 🙂

It appears Leaper Kim managed to pull two rabbits out of a hat.

(1) On their first try, they managed to come up with the best suspension so far. Suspension action is butter smooth, and is unprecedented. 

(2) With only 100-volt system voltage, they managed to come up with a motor drive system that is both torquey, and has a high top speed. The top speed is not the highest, but it up there. Most owners are not going to bomb down the road at 56+ mph. They just want lots of headroom. 

Only the EX30 may have an edge in top speed, but it is not significant in the real world. The higher the cruising speed, the higher exponentially the consumption rate; you would need to recharge too soon. Since most wheels these days have 3600Wh or less, the Sherman-S will be relevant for a while.

Come over here to Toronto and ride with these guys. We got guys hitting 94kmh on their masters. Along with sherman riders chasing escooters at 80kmh triple beeping the entire way while the scooters pull ahead. I dont ride on beeps. The v13 and EX30 are just gonna widen the gap further. I just cant see myself keeping up (safely) with the sherman-s. I need that higher voltage headroom

But yes, the performance that leaperkim managed to do with the 100v of the sherman-s is impressive. I wonder what extensive pushing and riding hard will do to the components over time. Inmotion specifically mentioned lower gauge thicker wires to sustain more current. I wonder if the sherman-s also has some of those designs considered given that its built around being 100v

[DavidB]

23 hours ago, pioneer said:

For food delivery, EX30 is an option IMO, because of the range and no strong need in hard off-road and downstairs ride. Here's what someone on FB got in terms of range.

I note the average speed on the CP was 10.6% higher than the EX30 so the aero drag would be 22% more (assuming windless or same wind conditions). They say aero is the biggest power sapper at speed but unless tested in same conditions at same speed range comparisons not really reliable. Marty did a good one recently. Same route and 0.1mph difference average speed. Not sure if wind and temp was the same. Within ball park I think.

Interesting I have seen many effiecency curves for BLDC motors. At peak load they are very effiecient but at half load that can drop to less than 50%. I think this is why Marty gets better range in the mountains. Going uphill he is closer to the peak power of the motor and going down he regens whereas on the flat  cruising at 25 on a 50mph wheel he is probably using just 30-40% of the power and is at the ineffiecent end of the load/effeciency curve.

[BKW]

after just receiving the mten4 and briefly having nuts fall of the back of it and bent frame, this was my first impression of a begode wheel, which I'll just associate extreme bull with as well (why the hell not). After owning a sherman max and a ks16X and then seeing how cheaply this mten4 felt like, it has me thinking about how bad this quality on the EBCP will truly be like?

I tell ya, I am not excited about it after my first impression of the build quality of this mten4

Edited March 8, 2023 by BKW

[techyiam]

7 minutes ago, Cobaltsaber said:

Come over here to Toronto and ride with these guys. We got guys hitting 94kmh on their masters. Along with sherman riders chasing escooters at 80kmh triple beeping the entire way while the scooters pull ahead. I dont ride on beeps. The v13 and EX30 are just gonna widen the gap further. I just cant see myself keeping up (safely) with the sherman-s. I need that higher voltage headroom

Stock Master don't have the battery capacity to sustain those speeds, nor the P's in the battery parallel configuration to supply the required current. These guys aren't cruising at those speeds either. There just isn't enough battery capacity. Also, how many guys are we talking about out of the group.

The other thing is if Sherman riders can chase after 80 km/h e-scooters, what do you have to worry about on a Sherman-S.

I think the real difference here are the riders who are willing to ride the beeps, and those who aren't. 

Also, where can you ride safely in Toronto at 90 km/h on an electric wheel? Are you guys actually riding down the Don Valley Parkway or something?

If top speed is your priority, and 3024 Wh is enough battery capacity, and you value safety margins, then the choice for you is simple, the V13. You cannot beat 22" or larger wheels for high speed cruising. 

However, for BKW, he doesn't need ultra high top speed. He is primarily using it for food delivery in NYC, the Sherman-S has plenty of headroom for him as is.

[BKW]

46 minutes ago, techyiam said:

On a Sherman-S, I highly doubt a skilled rider would be trailing behind in group rides. You guys are not riding 90+ km/h. There plainly are not enough hospital beds to accommodate the riders coming in from the carnage. 🙂

It appears Leaper Kim managed to pull two rabbits out of a hat.

(1) On their first try, they managed to come up with the best suspension so far. Suspension action is butter smooth, and is unprecedented. 

(2) With only 100-volt system voltage, they managed to come up with a motor drive system that is both torquey, and has a high top speed. The top speed is not the highest, but it up there. Most owners are not going to bomb down the road at 56+ mph. They just want lots of headroom. 

Only the EX30 may have an edge in top speed, but it is not significant in the real world. The higher the cruising speed, the higher exponentially the consumption rate; you would need to recharge too soon. Since most wheels these days have 3600Wh or less, the Sherman-S will be relevant for a while.

I have to say, I agree with you. I do feel like Leaperkim "did it again" with the Sherman-S. I haven't rode this wheel, but it's known by now the wheel has the best suspension on the market by a good margin. It's also deemed to be a "quality" build by most. I also hear the torque is stronger than the SherMax, which I believe, even for a 100 volt wheel that's impressive and strong. I do believe the ex30 will be more powerful overall, but the sherman-s is still a beast at the top of the pack.

A lot of people say that the difference is not noticeable for 134 volt until you reach higher speeds. But then you have a smaller majority saying you can feel it also in the low end, but this seems to be less popular of an opinion than how you only feel it after 30mph or so.

Edited March 8, 2023 by BKW

[KiwiMark]

29 minutes ago, Cobaltsaber said:

Come over here to Toronto and ride with these guys.

I understand. It is less about futureproofing and more about that you will be riding with a very fast group and need a higher performance wheel. For me - the performance of the Sherman S is plenty, I'm not really wanting faster or more powerful than I have. For you - faster and more powerful is what you want/need, that's fine.

So really it comes down to the needs of the rider. Do you need max performance? How fast is enough? Are you happy to ride 40-70kph like me, or do you need to go quite a bit faster like Cobaltsaber? I think the Sherman S is great for my use case, but obviously your mileage will vary.

[BKW]

10 minutes ago, KiwiMark said:

I understand. It is less about futureproofing and more about that you will be riding with a very fast group and need a higher performance wheel. For me - the performance of the Sherman S is plenty, I'm not really wanting faster or more powerful than I have. For you - faster and more powerful is what you want/need, that's fine.

So really it comes down to the needs of the rider. Do you need max performance? How fast is enough? Are you happy to ride 40-70kph like me, or do you need to go quite a bit faster like Cobaltsaber? I think the Sherman S is great for my use case, but obviously your mileage will vary.

Yeah, this is why I think these wheels are so hard to choose, because they are all good, but they are slightly different depending on how you like to ride or your use-case.

I feel like people who make a purchase for the ex30, EBCP or sherman-s will all end up being happy with their purchase once they make their decision. The only thing that will piss people off is if some technical issue happens to the wheel that was not designed to happen, which i think if that happens it'll likely happen first: ECBP > EX30 > Sherman-S

[techyiam]

3 minutes ago, KiwiMark said:

For you - faster and more powerful is what you want/need, that's fine.

I also think CobaltSaber needs to have the balls to go 90+ km/h. At those speeds, you are really moving. There are some variables that you can't control, like gusts of wind, or a couple of potholes. Talk the talk is one thing. But to walk the walk is a whole different ball of wax.

Cruising at over the 75 km/h threshold is one thing, but crossing over the 85 km/h threshold in a group ride is not common, I suspect. There may be a few who would make a burst of speed here and there, but not cruising at those speeds. 

[CrabChampion]

40 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Stock Master don't have the battery capacity to sustain those speeds, nor the P's in the battery parallel configuration to supply the required current. These guys aren't cruising at those speeds either. There just isn't enough battery capacity. Also, how many guys are we talking about out of the group.

The other thing is if Sherman riders can chase after 80 km/h e-scooters, what do you have to worry about on a Sherman-S.

I think the real difference here are the riders who are willing to ride the beeps, and those who aren't. 

Also, where can you ride safely in Toronto at 90 km/h on an electric wheel? Are you guys actually riding down the Don Valley Parkway or something?

We did a messy ride with over 20 people out towards Mississauga. All the 126+v wheels just bombed ahead and were gone. The rest of the group were fighting for their life to catch up at the back and I mean wayyy in the back. A master stayed at the back to escort the slower riders. Some issues happened at the back and word spread to the riders at the front. They had to ride an entire 10km or so back to check out what happened.

The gap between the speed capable wheels is just huge if the gap was 10km in only 20-25 or so minutes. That means I was holding about 70kmh (not sure on exact gps speed), they had to be going 90kmh or so for that gap to happen. So after that I just need a faster wheel. I cant keep up with the guys pushing on their masters, even if they have less range. We charge in 40km intervals usually. By the time they get to the charge point and charge back up i'll just have reached the charge point and they're gone again

Edited March 8, 2023 by Cobaltsaber

[CrabChampion]

6 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I also think CobaltSaber needs to have the balls to go 90+ km/h. At those speeds, you are really moving. There are some variables that you can't control, like gusts of wind, or a couple of potholes. Talk the talk is one thing. But to walk the walk is a whole different ball of wax.

Cruising at over the 75 km/h threshold is one thing, but crossing over the 85 km/h threshold in a group ride is not common, I suspect. There may be a few who would make a burst of speed here and there, but not cruising at those speeds. 

And I need a capable wheel to do that. V13 or ex30 will take me there "safer". Its the direction rides are going in my area. Same talk seems to happen in the NYC chat too about speed and stuff. Maybe i'm just around too many speedsters lol

[techyiam]

15 minutes ago, Cobaltsaber said:

And I need a capable wheel to do that. V13 or ex30

At 90+ km/h speeds that you are talking about, goofing up with your pwm alarm settings can be life altering.

My vote still goes to V13.

Unless you can trust yourself not to screw up. The EX30 may give you a bit more top end (not really verify by owners yet, and depends on Inmotion willingness to relax the top speed safety margin), and more peppy above a certain speed, but you lose dynamic tilt-back.

[CrabChampion]

1 minute ago, techyiam said:

At 90+ km/h speeds that you are talking about, goofing up with your pwm alarm settings can be life altering.

My vote still goes to V13.

Unless you can trust yourself not to screw up. The EX30 may give you a bit more top end (not really verify by owners yet, and depends on Inmotion willingness to relax the top speed safety margin), and more peppy above a certain speed, but you lose dynamic tilt-back.

I guess we shall see. All my grouprides here are just playing catch up. If I still cant keep up after upgrading my wheel to an EX30 or V13, I might just have to opt out lol. Begode wheels do have custom firmware with pwm tiltback now. I do agree that the v13 will always have more headroom than the EX30 due to the higher freespin and the beefier motor. Im a smaller guy though and would prefer the size of the EX30 over the v13. If the v13 came in 20" tire size then that would pretty much be my ultimate wheel

[mrelwood]

 

7 hours ago, Cobaltsaber said:

It doesnt scream futureproof to me as 100v is pretty much already previous gen.

Are you expecting the voltage to keep increasing? For how long / until what?

 Back when most wheels were 84V, Ninebot came out with a 59V Z10. And at 45km/h it wasn’t even much slower than most 84V wheels. Someone even hacked it to go 64km/h.

Upping the voltage is one way of achieving more speed, and it’s obvious that it’s the only way Begode knows of. But wheels aren’t getting much faster anymore, riding at 90km/h is already such a crazy thing to do that there aren’t many places to do it at, and there aren’t many riders who can do it safely.

3 hours ago, Cobaltsaber said:

Getting a 126v or 134v means you wont outgrow its powerband as quickly

You might have a rather twisted idea on what speeds most people ride at due to having landed with an extreme rider group. Check out the EUC World data on the average top speed that people rode at in 2022. It should be an eye opener.

3 hours ago, Cobaltsaber said:

By going with the higher voltage, you wont need to upgrade as soon down the line as the technology keeps evolving.

Evolving technology doesn’t change our needs. Even if the wheels that come out this year top at 100mph, I still wouldn’t ride any faster than I ride now. Or rode already 4 years ago. I have found my speeds. If the group I ride in wants to bomb it out and not wait, good riddance. I’m definitely not boosting up my riding speeds because of others.

3 hours ago, Cobaltsaber said:

I think this is an even bigger factor if you arent planning on buying a new wheel in the next 3 or so years

It isn’t. The wind resistance isn’t coming down in the next 3 years, so riding speeds aren’t going to get much faster from here. I’ve been on 84V wheels for soon 5 years. And I’d have no problem buying one this year if it offered me what I need from a wheel.

2 hours ago, Cobaltsaber said:

We got guys hitting 94kmh on their masters. Along with sherman riders chasing escooters at 80kmh triple beeping the entire way

So, is that really what you want to do? Would you do those things when riding alone, or is it purely a peer pressure thing? Like a pissing contest?

1 hour ago, Cobaltsaber said:

We did a messy ride with over 20 people out towards Mississauga. All the 126+v wheels just bombed ahead and were gone. The rest of the group were fighting for their life to catch up

How smart. It couldn’t be clearer that you need to split into two groups. Every single rider would be much happier.

1 hour ago, Cobaltsaber said:

So after that I just need a faster wheel.

The whole idea of spending $4k of your own money in order to keep up with the front of the pack couldn’t be more alien to me. If the fastest riders don’t take the rest of the riders in consideration, and won’t even ride with them, why even try? Good riddance. Make your own group.