Extremebull Commander Pro (134.4v,3600wh,suspension)

[Marty Backe]

56 minutes ago, BKW said:

Tempting. What do you guys think?

Only 3K for the original from China (18 units available). Should arrive by 2/21/23.

Some others on Aliexpress say they are used, but this one doesn't.

This wheel seems like if you buy it, no matter the batch, you'll probably have to add modifications anyway you go about it, so buying this at 3K for the original may be a good deal?

Also consider the price of the Sherman-S with additional pedal costs, making that wheel closer to 4.5K by comparison, etc.

I doubt of any warranty.

Personally I would hold off a little while because there are some changes to this wheel coming. I'm personally involved in providing feedback to Extreme Bull and apparently they are doing some updates. If the updates actually happen I would want them.

I'll be getting a "production" Commander Pro flown in as soon as its available (< month) to evaluate what they've done vs the one I have now.

BTW, this is about the price that the Commander Pro is worth when you consider the general build quality vs the Sherman S.

I don't know anything about this seller but I highly doubt it has any changes from the one I have. Of course I don't know for sure.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

17 hours ago, BKW said:

Marty facebook post about mileage on commander pro

was this an off road ride? Average speed 10mph with a max of 30.

[Marty Backe]

On 2/10/2023 at 6:42 AM, GHOSTTE said:

Interesting perspective, I hope more people can weigh in like this.

My thoughts, considering how light she is (~125 lbs) it's possible the Commander Pro feels like it "goes" is because it likely has a higher center of gravity over the EX30 due to the battery placement. Because Anna so light, the CP's higher center of gravity would help contribute to leaning forward for her compared to the EX30 making the wheel "go". She comments on this in her last comment:

I'm willing to bet if it were a male testing the two wheels it would be a different opinion given men generally have more weight and higher centers of gravity than women. Hope we can get more input on this though.

Every male who has tested the Commander Pro that I have has had positive comments regarding the wheel's power. Best described as a longer range version of the Master.

[Marty Backe]

3 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

was this an off road ride? Average speed 10mph with a max of 30.

See the separate post that I just made.

Please don't look at the "average" speed which includes the time that I was eating lunch for an hour 

You want to look at the average moving speed. And the average moving speed includes all the slow downs for stopping, turning, etc. And yes, ~5-miles of trail riding climbing 2000-feet.

Generally, the longer the ride the lower the average moving speed will be (unless you are doing continuous loops on a race track ). This was a ~70-mile ride.

[Marty Backe]

On 2/10/2023 at 2:56 AM, techyiam said:

It sounding more like the EX30 is an updated EX20S, which feels like an anvil. 

The all new, from the ground up chassis of the Commander Pro appears to be showcasing Begode's next generation suspension design. Or, is it truly Extreme Bull's own design, and Begode is not privy to it.

It is still early yet, but based on reports we have been getting from the wild, the hydraulic suspensions of the Sherman-S and Commander Pro are being praised to being class leading suspensions. Each leg of the suspension is all in one sealed unit lubricated in oil.

Personally, I prefer the linkage based suspension available on KingSong and Begode wheels. You can modify/replace the linkages and install your own shock.

The Sherman S and Commander Pro suspensions are wonderful but much harder to fix/replace if necessary.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

18 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

See the separate post that I just made.

Please don't look at the "average" speed which includes the time that I was eating lunch for an hour 

You want to look at the average moving speed. And the average moving speed includes all the slow downs for stopping, turning, etc. And yes, ~5-miles of trail riding climbing 2000-feet.

Generally, the longer the ride the lower the average moving speed will be (unless you are doing continuous loops on a race track ). This was a ~70-mile ride.

ok, Thanks for the info. I wasn't scoffing at the stats BTW. I was merely attempting to figure out what type of riding was done here. Forgive my ignorance i am not on the "social medias ."

[Marty Backe]

16 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

ok, Thanks for the info. I wasn't scoffing at the stats BTW. I was merely attempting to figure out what type of riding was done here. Forgive my ignorance i am not on the "social medias ."

No problem. I'm a little sensitive to all the average speed comments that I get  where it seems most people don't understand how those values are calculated.

On this particular ride, when I was able to go as fast as I wanted, my speeds were in the upper 20's (mph).

[BKW]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Personally I would hold off a little while because there are some changes to this wheel coming. I'm personally involved in providing feedback to Extreme Bull and apparently they are doing some updates. If the updates actually happen I would want them.

I'll be getting a "production" Commander Pro flown in as soon as its available (< month) to evaluate what they've done vs the one I have now.

BTW, this is about the price that the Commander Pro is worth when you consider the general build quality vs the Sherman S.

I don't know anything about this seller but I highly doubt it has any changes from the one I have. Of course I don't know for sure.

Hope. Can't wait to hear about any changes Extreme Bull makes to this wheel!

[litewave]

Welcome backe @Marty Backe  - hope you stick around for a while.

Almost no one has both the broad perspective and longevity that you can share (with a slight Gotway bias, of course ).

 

[EUC Sharkman]

8 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Personally I would hold off a little while because there are some changes to this wheel coming. I'm personally involved in providing feedback to Extreme Bull and apparently they are doing some updates. If the updates actually happen I would want them.

I'll be getting a "production" Commander Pro flown in as soon as its available (< month) to evaluate what they've done vs the one I have now.

BTW, this is about the price that the Commander Pro is worth when you consider the general build quality vs the Sherman S.

I don't know anything about this seller but I highly doubt it has any changes from the one I have. Of course I don't know for sure.

Definitely looking forward to seeing iterative batches from your feedback! Marty, let them know that lots of riders like myself are looking forward to this wheel!

 

That 95 lbs. weight with the smaller form factor is the reason folks like this wheel likely because it's more similar to the Sherman ride feel with that weight and size, but had that 134v power to it. When Modi picked it up and said it felt just like lifting his Sherman, that's what I'm talking about.

[BKW]

1 hour ago, EUC Sharkman said:

Definitely looking forward to seeing iterative batches from your feedback! Marty, let them know that lots of riders like myself are looking forward to this wheel!

 

That 95 lbs. weight with the smaller form factor is the reason folks like this wheel likely because it's more similar to the Sherman ride feel with that weight and size, but had that 134v power to it. When Modi picked it up and said it felt just like lifting his Sherman, that's what I'm talking about.

Facts. Give them a freaking list Marty! 

[Marty Backe]

4 hours ago, litewave said:

Welcome backe @Marty Backe  - hope you stick around for a while.

Almost no one has both the broad perspective and longevity that you can share (with a slight Gotway bias, of course ).

 

What's a Gotway???

[techyiam]

19 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Personally, I prefer the linkage based suspension available on KingSong and Begode wheels. You can modify/replace the linkages and install your own shock.

Perhaps your preference was shaped by your experience with the Master and Master Pro.

The leverage ratio curves for these links were so bad out-of-the-box that third party popped up to provide better links.

Additionally, the stock air shock left a lot to be desired. 

The S22 links were well designed, and I don't believe people were replacing those.

Sure, some people may opt for a high end shock, but they are quite spendy. I don't see this as a common occurrence, especially if the stock shock was decent to start with.

For motorcycles and mtb's, generally there are no third party links available. There is one exception for mtb's, and that is for the very high end,

And there is the matter of open sliders in the S22, and the use of pipes as stanchions for the Master or Master Pro. 

According to Kevin, the stanchions in the Master is not precisely sized, so the play vary all over the place.

And the bearings in the rollers have no weather protection in the S22.

I suppose your group managed to overcome the deficiencies, and are happy with those wheels. But that is extra effort and money. 

It may be your cup of tea, but I doubt that it will be everybody's. 

19 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

The Sherman S and Commander Pro suspensions are wonderful but much harder to fix/replace if necessary.

Replacement doesn't look difficult to me.

To work on the hydraulic struct, familiarity would certainly be a factor. But, it hard to know right now since no one has taken one apart and posted it.

Edited February 12, 2023 by techyiam

[Marty Backe]

10 hours ago, techyiam said:

Perhaps your preference was shaped by your experience with the Master and Master Pro.

The leverage ratio curves for these links were so bad out-of-the-box that third party popped up to provide better links.

Additionally, the stock air shock left a lot to be desired. 

The S22 links were well designed, and I don't believe people were replacing those.

Sure, some people may opt for a high end shock, but they are quite spendy. I don't see this as a common occurrence, especially if the stock shock was decent to start with.

For motorcycles and mtb's, generally there are no third party links available. There is one exception for mtb's, and that is for the very high end,

And there is the matter of open sliders in the S22, and the use of pipes as stanchions for the Master or Master Pro. 

According to Kevin, the stanchions in the Master is not precisely sized, so the play vary all over the place.

And the bearings in the rollers have no weather protection in the S22.

I suppose your group managed to overcome the deficiencies, and are happy with those wheels. But that is extra effort and money. 

It may be your cup of tea, but I doubt that it will be everybody's. 

Replacement doesn't look difficult to me.

To work on the hydraulic struct, familiarity would certainly be a factor. But, it hard to know right now since no one has taken one apart and posted it.

I see evidence of wide spread modifications of the linkage based suspensions. People, including me, have replace the springs on the S22 and some people have changed the shock. For the Hero, T4, Master, Master Pro, and I anticipate the EX30, there are new linkages available that improve the suspension and again, it's very easy to change the shock. On my Master I've change to a coil shock (< $100). Others have gone to better air shocks. Apparently endless options.

Options are good. People like the options of changing pedals, powerpads, seats, etc.

For the Sherman S, Commander Pro, V13, we don't really have options. Can you point me to a source for aftermarket shocks that can be swapped for the stock components? I'm not aware of any. Yet I can buy aftermarket shock components for KingSong / Begode from Amazon.

So this is why I prefer the linkage based suspension.

When I was talking with the CEO of Inmotion (Bob) he agreed that the linkage design is better and that will probably be the direction that they go in for their next wheels.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

I see evidence of wide spread modifications of the linkage based suspensions. People, including me, have replace the springs on the S22 and some people have changed the shock. For the Hero, T4, Master, Master Pro, and I anticipate the EX30, there are new linkages available that improve the suspension and again, it's very easy to change the shock. On my Master I've change to a coil shock (< $100). Others have gone to better air shocks. Apparently endless options.

For the S22, they put in a pretty big spring. Maybe good for the guys who want to do the 4' + drops.

Begode can't design good progressive links that can actuate the shock properly. So better links will be available. If Begode can poach Kingsong's linkage designer, aftermarket links would have been history.

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

For the Sherman S, Commander Pro, V13, we don't really have options. Can you point me to a source for aftermarket shocks that can be swapped for the stock components? I'm not aware of any. Yet I can buy aftermarket shock components for KingSong / Begode from Amazon.

The V13 suspension is refinement of the V11 which was an original design. No motorcycles nor mtb's use such designs. Open sliders are not ideal. The Sherman-S suspension is sealed in oil.

Both the progressive shock actuating links suspension, and suspension forks have been around for many decades for motorcycles and mtb's. Tried and true.

Have there been many Sherman-S owners complaining that their suspension is inadequately damped or sprung?

Do note that the Sherman-S suspension is a seal unit which encompasses the spring, damping and the telescoping mechanism bathed in oil. 

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

When I was talking with the CEO of Inmotion (Bob) he agreed that the linkage design is better and that will probably be the direction that they go in for their next wheels.

For electric wheels, it is a better integrated solution to use a suspension fork style suspension. 

With linkage route, there haven't been a good slider made yet.

On both motorcycles or mtb's, the rear suspension don't use open sliders. They use swingarms and articulated links pivoted in sealed cartridge bearings.

But this doesn't apply to electric wheels..

With the Sherman-S suspension, should it become apparent, they can offer better selection of spring rates.

If the aftermarket can come up with better roller sliders, and progressive links, there is no reason to believe that the aftermarket cannot come up with parts for Sherman-S suspension type too, if there is such a demand.

Edited February 12, 2023 by techyiam

[mrelwood]

8 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Begode can't design good progressive links that can actuate the shock properly. So better links will be available. If Begode can poach Kingsong's linkage designer, aftermarket links would have been history.

I agree. An option to replace linkages is only needed if the originals don’t do their job properly. ShermS, CP, V13 and V11 suspension overcome the issue by operating at 1:1 ratio, so there isn’t anything to modify, as the original can’t really fail in it’s job.

8 minutes ago, techyiam said:

The Sherman-S suspension is sealed in oil.

8 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Do note that the Sherman-S suspension is a seal unit which encompasses the spring, damping and the telescoping mechanism bathed in oil.

Are there teardowns available for the ShermS or CP struts? Or has the manufacturer specifically said that to be the case? Just to be sure that it’s not only something we expect.

8 minutes ago, techyiam said:

With linkage route, there haven't been a good slider made yet.

I agree.

8 minutes ago, techyiam said:

If the aftermarket can come up with better roller sliders, and progressive links, there is no reason to believe that the aftermarket cannot come up with parts for Sherman-S suspension type too.

The required mechanical design and work are at a very different precision level and complication with complete high strength suspension struts versus a solid bar with shower door wheels bolted on it though.

The V11 shock is a sealed cylinder with a piston, as simple as such a shock can be. A near identical shock with slightly different measures costs $20 at Ali (doesn’t fit in the V11). And V11 is the second most used wheel in 2022 based on EUC World, though suffering from leaky shocks and not having rebound damping. Yet no-one has made a replacement shock for it in the past 2.5 years. 

[trailless]

9 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

 

Are there teardowns available for the ShermS or CP struts? Or has the manufacturer specifically said that to be the case? Just to be sure that it’s not only something we expect.

 

 

[techyiam]

36 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Are there teardowns available for the ShermS or CP struts? Or has the manufacturer specifically said that to be the case? Just to be sure that it’s not only something we expect.

Thanks to the video above, it is the real deal. I knew the internals were in an oil bath since there have been reported leaks. But now we know for sure.

36 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The required mechanical design and work are at a very different precision level and complication with complete high strength suspension struts versus a solid bar with shower door wheels bolted on it though.

With the Sherman-S style suspension, other than more spring choices, there isn't really a need for anything else. Aside from offering more spring rates, third party can also offer progressively wound springs. But that is only if there is a demand for them.

Damping can made faster or slower still by changing fluid viscosity, and oil level. Suspension forks have been around for many decades.

As for spare parts availability down the road, this is a common problem for electric wheels. Not sure if FastAce can help there.

Edited February 12, 2023 by techyiam

[wstuart]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I see evidence of wide spread modifications of the linkage based suspensions. People, including me, have replace the springs on the S22 and some people have changed the shock. For the Hero, T4, Master, Master Pro, and I anticipate the EX30, there are new linkages available that improve the suspension and again, it's very easy to change the shock. On my Master I've change to a coil shock (< $100). Others have gone to better air shocks. Apparently endless options.

Options are good. People like the options of changing pedals, powerpads, seats, etc.

For the Sherman S, Commander Pro, V13, we don't really have options. Can you point me to a source for aftermarket shocks that can be swapped for the stock components? I'm not aware of any. Yet I can buy aftermarket shock components for KingSong / Begode from Amazon.

So this is why I prefer the linkage based suspension.

When I was talking with the CEO of Inmotion (Bob) he agreed that the linkage design is better and that will probably be the direction that they go in for their next wheels.

I've got 500 miles on my Sherman S and I've ridden 3 different Masters.  Marty I would have strongly disagreed with you until I tried a local Master that had Kuba links with a coil shock.  It was about 70% as good as my Sherman suspension, which surprised me.  The other masters I rode felt awful.   I think the linkage design can be better than the Sherman S, but the design needs work...... work that Inmotion will do.  Thanks for talking to them Marty!

Given what's available now I think my Sherman S/Commander pro suspension wins because I didn't have to research which aftermarket links to buy, which shock to get and find out how to setup that shock.  I also didn't have to tear my wheel apart and rebuild it to get the suspension to work...... as I would have to with a Master or S22.  

I think In the end the S22/Master linkage style will be the better design because serviceability and upgradability of the shock.  Also I think linkages will allow for more travel. However the Sherman / Commander Pro design has less moving parts, less stuff to break in a crash, and I would think is cheaper to produce.  For this reason I think both designs will still be around in 3 years.  Folks who want a durable, set-it-and-forget-it setup can by a Sherman style wheel.  Folks who want 120 - 150mm of travel with killer upgrade shock performance can buy the Kingsong S32 or Inmotion v17.  

It reminds me of Console vs. PC gaming.  Folks who want higher performance and custom hardware purchase PCs.  People who just wanna turn the thing on and play buy a console.  Both have millions of users.  Both are good.

I think in 4 years I'll own something like the Sherman S for commuting, something like an s22 for offroad..... and maybe something like a Master Pro for long street group rides.  I bet all 3 will have very different suspension designs. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by wstuart

[wstuart]

37 minutes ago, trailless said:

 

Cool video.  It would be nice if they had a shock service video that also showed the replacement of parts.  Hopefully leaperkim/fastace will have a 50-hour service pack that comes with some oil and o-rings - like they do for mountain bike shocks.

I was sort of stressing on what I would do if my Sherman S suspension started leaking (as a handful have). Then I saw on ali express that I can get both shocks brand new for $380.  Ill be happy if my Sherman S shocks last 2500-3000 miles, and I only have to spend $380 to get another 2500 miles of this performance.

[techyiam]

5 minutes ago, wstuart said:

I was sort of stressing on what I would do if my Sherman S suspension started leaking (as a handful have).

For such low mileage, the leaks can usually be resolved by cleaning the oil seals with a thin flexible feeler guage, or something equivalent. 

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, trailless said:

 

Nice, thanks!

[Marty Backe]

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

<snip>

With linkage route, there haven't been a good slider made yet.

<snip>

Really? What's wrong with the sliders that Begode is using? They seem great. None of the issues that the S22 has or the Sherman S and Commander Pro.

[wstuart]

31 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Really? What's wrong with the sliders that Begode is using? They seem great. None of the issues that the S22 has or the Sherman S and Commander Pro.

Sean Hsaing and Denis Hagov commented that the Master felt like there was play and flex in the chassis.  This however could have come from play in the linkages, not necessarily the design of the slider.  However, when I spoke to Sean about this he told me that the increased stability/rigidity of the s22 design comes from the fact that there are 2 points of contact on each side (4 total sliders).  The way he put it is that a 4 legged table is more stable than a 2 legged.  The issue with the s22 sliders though is that they bind during their stroke..... which is why they've struggled to find a material and configuration of rollers that doesn't deteriorate.......or at least make a ton of noise 

If Inmotion decides to tackle the linkage design I'll be very interested to see how they design their sliders..... 2 legged.....4 legged.... something new?

[trailless]

16 minutes ago, wstuart said:

Sean Hsaing and Denis Hagov commented that the Master felt like there was play and flex in the chassis.  This however could have come from play in the linkages, not necessarily the design of the slider.  However, when I spoke to Sean about this he told me that the increased stability/rigidity of the s22 design comes from the fact that there are 2 points of contact on each side (4 total sliders).  The way he put it is that a 4 legged table is more stable than a 2 legged.  The issue with the s22 sliders though is that they bind during their stroke..... which is why they've struggled to find a material and configuration of rollers that doesn't deteriorate.......or at least make a ton of noise 

If Inmotion decides to tackle the linkage design I'll be very interested to see how they design their sliders..... 2 legged.....4 legged.... something new?

Most if not all of the play in the Begode current Begode suspension wheels can be fixed by tightening 2 grub screws on each of the sliders. Once you tighten those down, they excess play is gone.

Edited February 13, 2023 by trailless