Extremebull Commander Pro (134.4v,3600wh,suspension)

[GHOSTTE]

On 1/27/2023 at 8:03 PM, UPONIT said:

All of what @mrelwood said, plus: I'm not positive that you are completely familiar with thermal management in electronic devices. Nothing you mentioned is necessarily a bad thing. Fans? Yes. Lots of thermal paste? Wasteful maybe, but better than too little.

Thermal output coming from something electrical indicates some form of inefficiency in how the current is being passed, it's a big reason why Intel/AMD/nVidia/etc pushed for smaller and smaller transistors in chips over the decades. The smaller the transistors, the smaller the die, the less heat is produced, the more efficient the chip.

The same mechanics exists here, adding more MOSFETs does nothing but add more complexity to the system by also adding more heat. A MOSFET is simply a compact transistor to control the flow of current regulating the voltage that flows through it. Adding more MOSFETs does nothing if the quality of the MOSFETs are poor, just like any other transistor. All InMotion have done is create more heat in a smaller area with their design, likely by using poorer quality MOSFETs to keep costs down.

Edited January 30, 2023 by GHOSTTE

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, oktothorpe said:

Thermal output coming from something electrical indicates some form of inefficiency in how the current is being passed, it's a big reason why Intel/AMD/nVidia/etc pushed for smaller and smaller transistors in chips over the decades. The smaller the transistors, the smaller the die, the less heat is produced, the more efficient the chip.

Computer chips work in the 3-5V range, and there are big bucks in constantly developing better and more effective chips.

 EUC mosfets are in the 150V range and require very large current capabilities. The availability of different Mosfet models is not all that great. I had a lot of trouble finding mosfets to replace even the ones on my late 84V MSX back in the day. Even those I had to order online.

4 hours ago, oktothorpe said:

The same mechanics exists here, adding more MOSFETs does nothing but add more complexity to the system by also adding more heat.

Mosfets generate heat by a nearly linear Celcius/Watt factor. What a larger number of mosfets does is lower the current requirements per mosfet, so each mosfet creates less heat.

There are much more into circuit design and component selection though, of which I know very little of. And my guess is that neither do you. EUC manufacturers have been doing this stuff for years, so I am strongly in the assumption that despite a certain single not so great choice in the past, they do know this shit much better than either of us.

[GHOSTTE]

On 1/28/2023 at 12:54 AM, mrelwood said:

EUC mosfets are in the 150V range and require very large current capabilities. The availability of different Mosfet models is not all that great. I had a lot of trouble finding mosfets to replace even the ones on my late 84V MSX back in the day. Even those I had to order online.

Exactly. It's been theorized InMotion chose to use cheaper MOSFETs in the Raptor Controller running in parallel due to availability. This opens up a whole can of worms as far as reliability goes in controlling said MOSFETs but that's a different discussion.

On 1/28/2023 at 12:54 AM, mrelwood said:

Mosfets generate heat by a nearly linear Celcius/Watt factor. What a larger number of mosfets does is lower the current requirements per mosfet, so each mosfet creates less heat.

There are much more into circuit design and component selection though, of which I know very little of. And my guess is that neither do you. EUC manufacturers have been doing this stuff for years, so I am strongly in the assumption that despite a certain single not so great choice in the past, they do know this shit much better than either of us.

Adding more MOSFETs does give the benefit of less power draw per MOSFET, that is correct. The issue this creates is there is additional resistance and thermal heat being created due to current going through said additional MOSFETs. Sure you have lowered the amount of current (and heat) per MOSFET, but you are also adding additional complexity and heat as the current passes through more channels (the additional MOSFETs). This makes for a less energy efficient design compared to a system with less MOSFETs that are able to manage higher loads due to less resistance. This also does not take into account the voltage needed to turn on and off said additional MOSFETs which will be higher than the rated gate threshold, creating less efficiency as well in the overall system.

I'm not an electrical engineer, my background is software. However, I've had to learn a bit on how this stuff works because software is essentially is teaching a rock to think by throwing electric current through it.

Edited January 30, 2023 by GHOSTTE

[Adel]

19 hours ago, oktothorpe said:

Update from Jason @ eWheels

Fingers crossed, there's hope

One reason they wouldn’t is that the new charge ports would require a different top cover, so a new mold for manufacture. It seems like no brainer that they should so why haven’t they done so already, other than try to keep dev. costs as low as possible.

 

[BKW]

I'm pretty much convinced by now the CP has good suspension, unless another youtuber comes out during an official test and says otherwise. Nonetheless, another video trying to display how sound somehow reflects the quality of suspension (not so informative imo):

 

[KiwiMark]

I'll be receiving my Sherman S this week and I'm happy with my decision to get it, I think it will be a good solid all-round wheel. If I was a faster rider looking to high performance then I'd probably be very keen on the Commander Pro with its higher voltage.  I think the CP would have the best suspension of the 134V wheels, it does definitely look like it is good suspension. I expect the SS & CP to each have their pros & cons, but mostly it comes down to higher performance/speed oriented riders are probably going to gravitate more to the CP.

[techyiam]

42 minutes ago, BKW said:

I'm pretty much convinced by now the CP has good suspension, unless another youtuber comes out during an official test and says otherwise. Nonetheless, another video trying to display how sound somehow reflects the quality of suspension (not so informative imo):

I know how the Sherman-S suspension felt like when I got on. It doesn't matter what anybody say, it is the best suspension that I ever sampled.

The Commander Pro's suspension is still looking good. I suspect there will be demo rides coming soon.

I suspect the Commander Pro suspension may perform better than the EX30's for on road uses. But you never know until we try it and compare.

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by techyiam

[techyiam]

10 minutes ago, KiwiMark said:

I'm happy with my decision to get it,

One thing that all owners will appreciate when they first unbox their Sherman-S; it is the premium quality impression one forms from ones senses.

There is no denying that this is a quality piece.

The other thing that will get your attention is how refined and butter smooth the suspension is. This is no exaggeration when I say butter smooth. You will say it yourself. 

After that, it will come down to personal preferences and background. 

[BKW]

 

[techyiam]

@BKW

Were you disheartened when you hear Dawn listed out the cons?

I like the performance and how easy it is to access.

As to the rest, I will have to go down and look at one myself when it is available. 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by techyiam

[BKW]

19 minutes ago, techyiam said:

@BKW

Were you disheartened when you hear Dawn listed out the cons?

I like the performance and how easy it is to access.

As to the rest, I will have to go down and look at one myself when it is available. 

 

I won't give a detailed response because on my phone, but the only con she mentioned that bothers me is the lack of waterproofing I don't plan on riding the wheel in rain, at least for a long time if I do). The headlight should be OK for me (the 16X headlight isn't that good, and I know how that is, but considering I'm in the city, I can see fine at night). The quality is kind of what I expected to hear, but what outweighs those things is the ergonomics and the magnesium shell. These things should be durable if in a crash, so that seems pretty solid. The speaker I don't care because they all suck anyway and I have JBLs. The sharp handles can be easily remedied. The display sounds like you can't see anything, but I think there should be ways to fix this as the French rider put film over it to discern the numbers from the brightness(?).

The one two.main things that had me want the SS over the CP were the suspension and the build quality. Now that I know the CP suspension is actually very good, that nullifies the SS suspension for me, even if the SS is slightly better -- I've never rode suspension before and it'll be amazing to me nonetheless on the CP. The build quality is the only thing that SS has that I want from the CP, but really, I care more about crashes and falls and breaks from that. The ergonomics of this wheel are superb in that if it crashes nothing is sticking out, the handle won't pop out and break, the only weak thing is the taillight but looks like you can put more kickstand bumpers, etc., to protect them.

I'm sold on this wheel and it's actually better than I expected from what I've seen and heard so far, especially since I came into this thinking about "Begode quality". In a lot of ways, Begode has stepped up their quality on this machine, especially with the suspension and magnesium shelling.

I speak of the SS a lot because it's what I was weighing it against for my decision. The SS has some.l a couple things I don't like, not mentioning the 134volt, etc: the flimsy trolley handle I don't like and the pedals suck. Compare that to the CP with no gaskets for waterproofing and a supposed bad headlight and taillight? Meh, not a bad tradeoff for the CP if you ask me.

I've seen enough and heard enough of the CP at this point to be sold on it unless something catastrophic shows itself before I buy one. I'll likely get a batch 2 or 3.

 

[UPONIT]

On 1/27/2023 at 6:26 PM, oktothorpe said:

Thermal output coming from something electrical indicates some form of inefficiency in how the current is being passed

No it does not. Heat is an unavoidable byproduct of electromagnetic activity.

it's a big reason why Intel/AMD/nVidia/etc pushed for smaller and smaller transistors in chips over the decades. The smaller the transistors, the smaller the die, the less heat is produced, the more efficient the chip.

No. The reason for smaller chips is faster processing (shorter distance between transistors).

The same mechanics exists here, adding more MOSFETs does nothing but add more complexity to the system by also adding more heat.

No. In this context, "heat" and "complexity" are unrelated terms.

A MOSFET is simply a compact transistor to control the flow of current regulating the voltage that flows through it.

Adding more MOSFETs does nothing if the quality of the MOSFETs are poor, just like any other transistor.

YES! Accurate-ish.

All InMotion have done is create more heat in a smaller area with their design, likely by using poorer quality MOSFETs to keep costs down.

Yes. I believe that "fact" was proven in The Scientific American Swimsuit Issue.

OK...Thermal management was a flaw in the Commander, so it seemed like a relevant topic, and worth being accurate about, in the CP thread. And you are 100% justified to have thermal management as a criteria for wheel selection. But (and I say this with as much humor, respect, and friendliness as possible) it's a useless criteria if you confuse (conflate?) several different aspects of electronic design and draw conclusions based on faulty physics.

I'm done now. Nerdout over.   

Edited January 29, 2023 by UPONIT

[GHOSTTE]

3 hours ago, UPONIT said:

No it does not. Heat is an unavoidable byproduct of electromagnetic activity.

This is a gross simplification

1. Any transistor flipping from on or off requires some minimal energy. This is present with each MOSFETs requiring additional voltage to transition from the "off" state to "on"
2. Resistance. Any conductor initially resists the flow of electrons and this is wasted heat. Different conductors have different resistance properties and with some more efficient than others. This is Joule heating.

 

3 hours ago, UPONIT said:

it's a big reason why Intel/AMD/nVidia/etc pushed for smaller and smaller transistors in chips over the decades. The smaller the transistors, the smaller the die, the less heat is produced, the more efficient the chip.

No. The reason for smaller chips is faster processing (shorter distance between transistors).

Speed absolutely. It's diminishing size also had the benefit of reducing resistance of current allowing for more efficient work, smaller surface area, less power consumption, and as a byproduct of all the above -- less heat generation.

 

3 hours ago, UPONIT said:

The same mechanics exists here, adding more MOSFETs does nothing but add more complexity to the system by also adding more heat.

No. In this context, "heat" and "complexity" are unrelated terms.

In this instance the V13 MOSFETs are likely running in parallel, adding complexity in needing to turn the MOSFETs off and on synchronously. This coordination takes additional energy. If this fails to happen catastrophic things may occur to the device. This additional energy consumption to coordinate this added complexity adds to the inefficiency of the overall system in the V13, with heat being a byproduct as well as you stated, "[h]eat is an unavoidable byproduct of electromagnetic activity."

 

3 hours ago, UPONIT said:

A MOSFET is simply a compact transistor to control the flow of current regulating the voltage that flows through it.

It's literally in the name MOSFET, metal–oxide–semiconductor field-effect transistor. It controls electric flow from the source to the drain depending on the amount of voltage applied to the gate terminal. I'm unsure why you are "" something indisputable.

 

3 hours ago, UPONIT said:

Adding more MOSFETs does nothing if the quality of the MOSFETs are poor, just like any other transistor.

YES! Accurate-ish.

Glad we agree.

 

3 hours ago, UPONIT said:

All InMotion have done is create more heat in a smaller area with their design, likely by using poorer quality MOSFETs to keep costs down.

Yes. I believe that "fact" was proven in The Scientific American Swimsuit Issue.

OK...Thermal management was a flaw in the Commander, so it seemed like a relevant topic, and worth being accurate about, in the CP thread. And you are 100% justified to have thermal management as a criteria for wheel selection. But (and I say this with as much humor, respect, and friendliness as possible) it's a useless criteria if you confuse (conflate?) several different aspects of electronic design and draw conclusions based on faulty physics.

I'm done now. Nerdout over.   

I'm unsure where you're getting faulty physics from, but yes efficiency of the EUC controller is important to me and I do not see the Raptor Controller as being an efficient design based from what I've seen of the tear downs. The active and passive cooling elements of V13's Raptor Controller's indicate to me some flaw in efficiency compared to other EUC tear downs.

[techyiam]

54 minutes ago, oktothorpe said:

The active and passive cooling elements of V13's Raptor Controller's indicate to me some flaw in efficiency compared to other EUC tear downs.

Below is a real world data point. This is a warm day in Southern California. 

Can you name the wheels that you think had better cooling than the V13?

Quote

Marty Backe is in Mt Wilson.

 

At the top of my 5000-ft (1500-meters) Mt Wilson climb. Made it to the top to see the sunset. The V13 handled great and never got too warm even though it was a warm day.

35% battery remaining at the end of the 35-mile (56-kilometers) ride.

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by techyiam

[GHOSTTE]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Below is a real world data point. This is a warm day in Southern California. 

Can you name the wheels that you think had better cooling than the V13?

 

The issue is not the V13 staying cool itself, the issue is the requirement for said cooling elements to cool the controller. There is a big difference.

[KiwiMark]

9 hours ago, techyiam said:

@BKW

Were you disheartened when you hear Dawn listed out the cons?

Was there much unexpected about the cons? I don't think I'd be put off, this wheel has the power, acceleration and speed that you would buy it for and a decent range - 70 miles at the speed Dawn was riding is very good IMO.  Of course you might choose something else for a daily commuter that needs to handle all weather, but if you are a speed demon that loves power and speed and you also want decent range - this wheel will give you what you are after.

Of course it would be nice if the build quality was better, but the wheel works fine and does what it was designed to do. If that lines up with your wants/needs then I don't see any deal-breaker type thing to stop you buying it.

[GHOSTTE]

New Dawn video

 

[BKW]

^^she mentions begodes bad soldering skills with wires coming undone. How can you make such an advanced wheel and not solder properly?

[Punxatawneyjoe]

1 hour ago, oktothorpe said:

the issue is the requirement for said cooling elements to cool the controller.

Pretty sure the cooling fans are just for the headlight, just like my v11. There is a massive heat sink on the base of the controller for heat dissipation.

[GHOSTTE]

23 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

Pretty sure the cooling fans are just for the headlight, just like my v11. There is a massive heat sink on the base of the controller for heat dissipation.

The heatsink attached to the headlamp is small so unlikely; what is more telling is the fans are positioned to direct (push) air towards the controller's heatsink, indicating that the Raptor Controller is the target that the fans are designed to cool and the headlamps being cooled is secondary due to air being pulled over them when being taken in by the fans. If the fans were designed to cool the headlamp they would positioned to direct (push) airflow to the heatsink attached to the headlamp light. How InMotion has designed the V13 indicates, to me at least, the fans primary purpose is keeping the Raptor Controller cool.

Edit: Also note that the wires for the fans are directly in contact with the heatseak of the headlamp in this video as 2:52 indicating the headlamp heatsink is not expected to be warm enough to warrant a need for active cooling.

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by GHOSTTE

[GHOSTTE]

52 minutes ago, BKW said:

^^she mentions begodes bad soldering skills with wires coming undone. How can you make such an advanced wheel and not solder properly?

Yup, hopefully only issues on the pre-production models that were sent out, the Sherman S was similar with poor quality in their pre-production models as well

[Paradox]

Dawn has spoken.

 

[GHOSTTE]

2 minutes ago, Paradox said:

Dawn has spoken.

 

I saw that! Even with the shoddy wiring and being sent with the GX16-5 plugs she still prefers it which is a good sign. Keep in mind though Dawn is a motorcycle rider and her preference is speed and simplicity with safety features secondary (she mentions this in her V13 breakdown). Fortunately that's what I want too.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

46 minutes ago, oktothorpe said:

fans are positioned to direct (push) air towards the controller's heatsink, indicating that the Raptor Controller is the target that the fans are designed to cool and the headlamps being cooled is secondary due to air being pulled over them when being taken in by the fans

Except for the fact they push the air towards the headlight and over the heat sink just like the v11 does as dictated by the shape of the blades in this close up photo. The v11 and the v13 have super bright headlights, so much that they need cooling fans with heat sinks. If it was meant for the control first off the fan direction would be the other way and secondly it would be ducked to base of the controller not dumping out into a 4" tall by 10" void.

[GHOSTTE]

8 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

Except for the fact they push the air towards the headlight and over the heat sink just like the v11 does as dictated by the shape of the blades in this close up photo. The v11 and the v13 have super bright headlights, so much that they need cooling fans with heat sinks. If it was meant for the control first off the fan direction would be the other way and secondly it would be ducked to base of the controller not dumping out into a 4" tall by 10" void.

You are completely incorrect. The concave of the fan blades is on the side you have shown in your post, this is the exhaust of the fan. You can learn about the direction of airflow from this video.

 

10 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

If it was meant for the control first off the fan direction would be the other way and secondly it would be ducked to base of the controller not dumping out into a 4" tall by 10" void.

False. In addition to you screenshotting the exhaust of the fans please notice how the fans are tilted upward towards the Raptor Controller's heatsink. What part of the EUC the fans are attached to is an orthogonal concern, what they direct air at is what is important.