Extremebull Commander Pro (134.4v,3600wh,suspension)

[techyiam]

46 minutes ago, wstuart said:

I've heard that Begode is a small company with not that much capital.

I am not so convinced that Begode is that small a company. 

In the same time frame that took Kingsong to announce the S20/22 to the S22 Pro, the latter is essentially a rename of the fixed S22, Begode came out with the Hero suspension and shell, S20 S suspension and open / module design, 134-volt motor drive system, and simplified S20 S suspension in the Master, and the Commander Pro with a completely new suspension system, and completely new body. That couldn't have been cheap. The setup for production alone couldn't have been cheap. Nevermind the R&D.

Edited January 27, 2023 by techyiam

[GHOSTTE]

Just now, techyiam said:

I am not so convinced that it igs that small a company. 

In the same time frame that took Kingsong to announce the S20/22 to the S22 Pro, the latter is essentially a rename of the fixed S22, Begode came out with the Hero suspension and shell, S20 S suspension and open / module design, 134-volt motor drive system, and simplified S20 S suspension in the Master, and the Commander Pro with a completely new suspension system, and completely new body. That couldn't have been cheap. The setup for production alone couldn't have been cheap. Nevermind the R&D.

Which is why I somewhat respect Begode, they're able to push something out to combat the competition at an astounding speed; the Commander Pro is just that as their response to the Sherman S. Honestly it's quite impressive.

[techyiam]

6 minutes ago, oktothorpe said:

Which is why I somewhat respect Begode, they're able to push something out to combat the competition at an astounding speed; the Commander Pro is just that as their response to the Sherman S. Honestly it's quite impressive.

Their turn around response is crazy lightning quick. That could be another indicator that they may not be that small.

[GHOSTTE]

Just now, techyiam said:

Their turn around response is crazy lightning quick. That could be another indicator that they may not be that small.

It's also why I don't understand people getting upset at, say, the Master with it's multiple revisions. I want a company that wants to improve it's products.

[BKW]

54 minutes ago, wstuart said:

I've heard that Begode is a small company with not that much capital.  My source on this offered a theory about Begode that made sense .

 

He speculated that in order to fund the development and production of one batch, Begode needs revenue from the previous batch.  This is why we saw the master being researched and developed over the first 3 batches.  This explains the v1,v2,v3 parts fiasco that Eevees described.   I think this also explains why first batches come out unfinished.  

 

If that is the case, then why are they pumping out so many new wheels if they don't have the capital? Mind you, EUCs aren't the only machines they build either.

From their actions, they look like they really want to take over the market by pumping out so many wheels so fast.

Edited January 27, 2023 by BKW

[GHOSTTE]

Just now, BKW said:

If that is the case, then why are they pumping out so many new wheels if they don't have the capital?

EUC PONZI SCHEME! It's the next Madoff/SFB!

[BKW]

9 minutes ago, oktothorpe said:

It's also why I don't understand people getting upset at, say, the Master with it's multiple revisions. I want a company that wants to improve it's products.

I think you know the answer to that: it's because when was the last time you bought something that was thousands of dollars only to have it upgraded a week later due to it breaking or missing parts? Better question: when was the last time you bought something that was thousands of dollars that was incomplete? (you can't say "EUC"!)

Edited January 27, 2023 by BKW

[GHOSTTE]

Just now, BKW said:

I think you know the answer to that: it's because when was the last time you bought something that was thousands of dollars only to have it upgraded a week later due to it breaking or missing parts?

I've owned several McLarens and other cars similar in nature including highly modified 950hp MP4-12C, I'm used to wrenching and tuning my things

[BKW]

3 minutes ago, oktothorpe said:

I've owned several McLarens and other cars similar in nature including highly modified 950hp MP4-12C, I'm used to wrenching and tuning my things

OK. Maybe I shouldn't have asked you that... maybe I should ask another Walmart buyer like myself jk

[techyiam]

2 minutes ago, oktothorpe said:

It's also why I don't understand people getting upset at, say, the Master with it's multiple revisions. I want a company that wants to improve it's products.

I think there is a subtle distinction here.

On the one hand, there is your interpretation. 

But there is also another possibility. And that is Begode doesn't go through the proper engineering design cycle completely. It is like they are skipping verification and validation, and evaluation and testing. 

It is almost like Begode is letting the customers do it for them. And that is probably why there have been unreasonable number of not so insignificant revisions. And some rumors are suggesting there are no official tracking and documentation on this. It is really very haphazard-like. Very much not like the engineering practices used in Western countries.

But then, there is Kingsong. Very much about too little too late, which is plainly bad.

[GHOSTTE]

1 minute ago, techyiam said:

I think there is a subtle distinction here.

On the one hand, there is your interpretation. 

But there is also another possibility. And that is Begode doesn't go through the proper engineering design cycle completely. It is like they are skipping verification and validation, and evaluation and testing. 

It is almost like Begode is letting the customers do it for them. And that is probably why there have been unreasonable number of not so insignificant revisions. And some rumors are suggesting there are no official tracking and documentation on this. It is really very haphazard-like. Very much not like the engineering practices used in Western countries.

But then, there is Kingsong. Very much about too little too late, which is plainly bad.

China is very different from the West. Back when I lived in China ~10-15 years ago it was crazy all the types of phones you could find in Shenzhen, I can only imagine how much the scene has progressed into other tech today. To be fair a lot of Western countries were the same during the Industrial Revolution.

Edited January 27, 2023 by oktothorpe

[Cerbera]

I've said it before and my position remains unchanged; I have no issue being a beta tester for Begode wheels, and finishing their builds off for them, but they should be priced accordingly - like 750 quid cheaper for the privilege  ! You do see a small nod to that in the extended warranty they offer first batch owners, but it's not enough to do that alone, hence why I never buy Batch 1. But I also like that they improve things as they go along, and if you buy from a decent dealer, (mine at least) have been very good at sending me free parts to keep even my Batch 3 wheel current to latest safe versions of charge boards and display drivers etc.

[techyiam]

2 minutes ago, oktothorpe said:

China is very different from the West. Back when I lived in China ~10-15 years ago it was crazy all the types of phones you could find in Shenzhen, I can only imagine how much the scene has progressed into other tech today

I see. That may be not too far from the truth for some of these companies. 

[techyiam]

10 minutes ago, oktothorpe said:

I've owned several McLarens and other cars similar in nature including highly modified 950hp MP4-12C, I'm used to wrenching and tuning my things

Gee, then working on electric wheels should be child's play for you. 

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

It is almost like Begode is letting the customers do it for them.

I don't think there's any almost about it !!  I have no doubt that their wheels get only the most rudimentary of tests, and a frighteningly short period of time between first working prototype and when they produce a first batch. Of course they are helped enormously in that regard by their lengthy experience and the fact that the underlying technology doesn't ever evolve much in one leap, and is largely built on what went before, so testing periods don't need to be anything like as long as if you are innovating from scratch, but I don't think there are many other industries / hobbies around where we are test lemmings to such a large and consistent degree as from that company and with these wheels ! At least we can't ever say it's dull  And it's not just Begode of course. God help you if you a bought an S22 in the last coupla years. Let's hope your veteran wasn't one of the ones that accelerated off by itself ! None of them have been flawless, and the V13 is really the first one we've seen that represents a proper leap up in terms of build and design quality, and may have got the time it deserves in the test and QA phases.

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Cerbera

[GHOSTTE]

14 hours ago, techyiam said:

Gee, then working on electric wheels should be child's play for you. 

Upgraded snails, intercoolers, tune, etc etc. It was a beautiful car but was sadly totaled out because someone ran a light when I had a right-away. I got a nice payout from insurance though because the guy admitted fault to the reporting officers

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by oktothorpe

[GHOSTTE]

10 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

I don't think there's any almost about it !!  I have no doubt that their wheels get only the most rudimentary of tests, and a frighteningly short period of time between first working prototype and when they produce a first batch. Of course they are helped enormously in that regard by their lengthy experience and the fact that the underlying technology doesn't ever evolve much in one leap, and is largely built on what went before, so testing periods don't need to be anything like as long as if you are innovating from scratch, but I don't think there are many other industries / hobbies around where we are test lemmings to such a large and consistent degree as from that company and with these wheels ! At least we can't ever say it's dull 

 

All their recent wheels use the C38 platform with the only differences really being the body and battery size, not much testing needed

[Cerbera]

58 minutes ago, oktothorpe said:

not much testing needed

True, but it would have been nice, for example if they'd jiggled those rubbish plastic battery packs on the Master Series around a bit more in order to find out if they were capable of being used as primary structural elements for more than a month without crumbling to dust !

Edited January 27, 2023 by Cerbera

[BKW]

14 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

I don't think there's any almost about it !!  I have no doubt that their wheels get only the most rudimentary of tests, and a frighteningly short period of time between first working prototype and when they produce a first batch. Of course they are helped enormously in that regard by their lengthy experience and the fact that the underlying technology doesn't ever evolve much in one leap, and is largely built on what went before, so testing periods don't need to be anything like as long as if you are innovating from scratch, but I don't think there are many other industries / hobbies around where we are test lemmings to such a large and consistent degree as from that company and with these wheels ! At least we can't ever say it's dull 

 

I also wonder how many different teams they have developing new wheels at once? This may explain their fast production speed. For instance, they could always have people developing new wheels, or upgrading old wheels, simultaneously -- speculation, of course

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, BKW said:

speculation, of course

and that's the other thing of course - their communication is so sporadic, inconsistent, unintuitive, confusing / obfuscated by language and in translation that we have no idea how they are running things, other than the few rare things they say, and EcoDrift's helpful teardowns of what eventually makes it into port ! I'd feel so much better about beta testing their wheels and providing good useful feedback if only I had a direct line to their developers, designers, and engineers, like I do with the software I beta test, on which lives DON'T depend ! To be fair they have been getting slightly better in that regard recently, and we know they do listen to feedback and act on it, though not necessarily within the same model, hence the general slow, gradual ramp of improvements across the whole range over the longer time frame. Anyway, I digress - back to thread !!

Edited January 27, 2023 by Cerbera

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, oktothorpe said:

Upgraded snails,

You must mean the turbochargers. The scroll cage does resemble the shell of a snail. This the first time I come across the use of snail in this context.

Cool car. 

My nephew test drove his friends 720S, and he thought it accelerated as quick as a motorcycle. I can't imagine what your 950HP MP4-12C could do.

Edited January 27, 2023 by techyiam

[Paul A]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

Their turn around response is crazy lightning quick.

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-shenzhen-could-new-tech-capital-world-jordon

Start-ups in Shenzhen have access to thousands of factories that are capable of turning product batches from prototypes in a matter of days. 

Compared to its Western neighbors Shenzhen has a greater iteration rate. This simply means innovating an idea in this city is a lot faster. 

A good example of this is Shenzhen’s Huaqiangbei Electronics Market.

This center has 20 different shopping malls and covers over 70 million square feet.

Every building within this marketplace has thousands of little kiosks and any part you can ever think of to build brilliant hardware. 

___________________________
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenzhen

Shenzhen

With a population of 17.56 million as of 2020, Shenzhen is the third most populous city by urban population in China after Shanghai and Beijing.^[9]

Shenzhen is a global center in technology, research, manufacturing, business and economics, finance, tourism and transportation, and the Port of Shenzhen is the world's fourth busiest container port.

Shenzhen is classified as a Large-Port Megacity, the largest type of port-city in the world.^[10]

 

Shenzhen is ranked as an Alpha- (global first-tier) city by the Globalization and World Cities Research Network.

Its nominal GDP has surpassed neighboring cities of Guangzhou and Hong Kong and is now among the top ten cities with the largest economies in the world.

 

Due to the city being a leading global technology hub, Shenzhen has been dubbed by media China's Silicon Valley.

The city's entrepreneurial, innovative, and competitive-based culture has resulted in the city being home to numerous small-time manufacturers or software companies. Several of these firms became large technology corporations such as phone manufacturer Huawei, holding company Tencent, and drone-maker DJI.

______________________________

 

https://www.iol.co.za/business-report/companies/watch-shenzhen-the-electronic-capital-of-the-world-12032443

Inc. reported that 90% of the world’s electronics come from Shenzhen, including televisions, mobile phones, drones etc.

The city is also China's wealthiest city.

On the global list of cities with the most billionaires, Shenzhen ranks number eight.

 

[UPONIT]

 

4 hours ago, oktothorpe said:

battery life = range is way lower than the Commander Pro and Sherman S
power management = all the safety features in the V13 are managed by the Raptor Controller, which in turn eats a lot of power. This has been commented on by many reviewers
speed = other manufacturers don't put any limits, Dawn Champion even comments she doesn't like the V13 because there is too much tech and too many safety features

Thanks for clarifying! Battery size and range are indeed design choices. Haven't heard anyone complain about Raptor? (How would anyone know the total specific power draw of a controller?) Based on safety discussion earlier in this thread, I was surprised you listed 55 mph limit as a negative.

In case you missed it, Dawn ended up concluding that the V13 is one of her top (2 or 3?) favorite wheels.

 

Anyway, back to the CPro: is there a good quality teardown video yet? It would be nice to compare with SS.

[mrelwood]

 

7 hours ago, oktothorpe said:

I think the Begode move-fast-break-things mentality is the better one to evolve the field more quickly and stay ahead of the competition.

I think “staying ahead” has changed enough that this is no longer the case. When wheels were slow and had small batteries, there was a lot of room to advance which GotWay then did, giving birth to an enthusiastic group of followers.

 But the top speed is no longer worthy to be increased, as there are just a handful of riders on the whole planet who ever want to reach 60mph on an EUC. And the weight of li-ion batteries has made a lot of riders turn away from the largest packs.

 Nowadays, staying ahead of the competition happens in the suspension design, riding options in the firmware, battery safety, structural rigidity, etc. All the stuff that Begode has never been good at.

 

6 hours ago, Cerbera said:

Let's not forget, even Begode have publicly said they are doing a higher quality / safer wheel next.

I’m sure that most people understands that higher quality and safety are not a switch you can just turn on. Look how long it has taken Inmotion to get where they are, despite touting for safety since day one. It’s a skill, which if Begode starts to learn now will take several years to be worthy of even a nod. Their whole company profile and follower base is built on making unsafe wheels with the lowest possible QC. You don’t just turn all that around at once.

 It actually makes me a bit sad that Begode is trying to keep itself current by saying stuff like that. I find it patronizing (I believe is the word I’m  looking for. As if they consider their customers that easy to be duped.)

 

5 hours ago, oktothorpe said:

battery life = range is way lower than the Commander Pro and Sherman S

V13 is a much heavier wheel, with a smaller battery. Range being way lower should not be a surprise. No one expects the Master to compete in range either.

5 hours ago, oktothorpe said:

power management = all the safety features in the V13 are managed by the Raptor Controller, which in turn eats a lot of power. This has been commented on by many reviewers

… who commonly have a technology background of nothing at all. I wouldn’t trust any EUC reviewer explaining how stuff works. Look at Chooch for example, he rarely gets anything technical right in his ramblings. Even Marty gets stuff wrong here and there.

“All the V13 safety features” are managed by the firmware alone, which takes less power than your phone at maximum. Even if the V13 firmware processor took ten times the amount of energy compared to others, it would be a fly’s fart compared to what it takes to balance a rider on a single wheel. Let alone accelerate. The processor’s power consumption absolutely can’t have any notable effect in the wheel’s power delivery.

5 hours ago, oktothorpe said:

speed = other manufacturers don't put any limits

KingSong does, and Airwheel, Ninebot, IPS, and all others did. Begode and it’s derivatives are the only ones that don’t. Which has even caused a community member to make a port of Begode firmwares that do, which has turned out to be very popular. Turns out, most people don’t want to face plant after all!

And the V13 is still one of the few fastest wheels in the market, and has the fastest spinning motor of all EUCs. ShermS for example is much slower.

5 hours ago, oktothorpe said:

Dawn Champion even comments she doesn't like the V13 because there is too much tech and too many safety features

Was this after she had tried the V13 with settings that limited the top speed to 35mph by design? Don’t take individual comments to seriously. They are just people, who by design don’t know what they’re doing most times.

 She also has a history on motorcycle racing, so she just might have uncommon opinions when it comes to speed and safety.

5 hours ago, oktothorpe said:

If you want raw performance and better efficiency, go for something else

Kuji clocked faster accelerations with the V13 than on the Master, despite the larger wheel diameter on the V13. So the raw performance is definitely all there. For efficiency though, you’re always better off with a lighter wheel.

5 hours ago, oktothorpe said:

I want a company that wants to improve it's products.

Every company improves their wheels, it’s not about that. The fact that the Master hasn’t been out more than what, 6 months, and we already have four revisions that require different mainboards, charge boards and display boards, and Begode has done nothing to explain which versions can be used with which parts. And the older parts are of course not even manufactured anymore, making the firstt versions obsolete in just a few months.

KS has had issues with undocumented mainboard versions not fitting their wheels as well though. But from what I’ve seen, the Inmotion V11 has at least three driver board versions that all play along just fine. And the hardware is improved on many levels as well. So it can also be done the right way.

[Paradox]

8 hours ago, oktothorpe said:

There was a guy on a Sherman S hitting 50mph with ZERO gear and he wiped out and ended up breaking a lot of things. Do stupid shit, get stupid shit done to ya.

The video is from a year ago.  So not Sherman S.