Mten4 announced!

[Tawpie]

12 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Li-ions have the best shelf life at around 50%, so EUCs usually ship charged to around there.

And, during shipping, if something should go wrong with the battery the results are significantly less spectacular with lower state of charge. 40% or somewhere around there is the recommended charge level for shipping (and storage).

[Denny Paul]

Begode was touting this as a durable wheel you can fling around careless without worry. Was that video just marketing smoke?

 

[rebeuc]

24 minutes ago, Denny Paul said:

Begode was touting this as a durable wheel you can fling around careless without worry. Was that video just marketing smoke?

It's plenty durable for front impacts and the like.

What it is not durable for is side-to-side impacts or bending.

[CrabChampion]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Li-ions have the best shelf life at around 50%, so EUCs usually ship charged to around there.

Funnily enough, every brand new begode wheel I have gotten cane out of the box with 80-90% charge :/

[CrabChampion]

33 minutes ago, Denny Paul said:

Begode was touting this as a durable wheel you can fling around careless without worry. Was that video just marketing smoke?

 

This video was a big reason to why I got the mten4. It seemed like magic that an EUC could take such abuse and come out relatively unscathed. With my mten4 in my hands now, I dont think it could survive this lol. I know someone who cutout on their mten4 going 25mph and it did survive with minimal damage though. So who knows

[BKW]

6 hours ago, rebeuc said:

You will only see one battery pack regardless of which version, I believe. The 600wh packs they installed were an entire replacement, not just adding a second 300wh battery pack. (They are internally doubled with a single power connector from what I heard)

That is supposed to be these wheels. ewheels is the first retailer I have seen to offer this specific street tire, and they mentioned the reinforced frame in an email (though I have not seen any proof/photos to confirm the reinforced frame and am unclear on how exactly that is supposed to be the case)

We should also see that the ewheels mten4 side pads are black instead of the bluish color the other retailers have had previously. (Though I don't know if the alienrides 300wh mten4's would be blue or black, haven't heard anything about them other than that they exist)

A couple things:

If you look at the attachment below from ewheels it appears the two pack of 300wh are wrapped together in plastic, so if there are two batteries I should be able to physically see them on top of one-another. (there was also a video they sent of the shrink wrap process but file is too large to attach here).

As far as the side pads go, they came blue for this shipment for me.

230217- MTen4 QC Report, V-2302026.pdf

Edited March 8, 2023 by BKW

[joeboots]

Battery life according to the begode app or EUC world? I've been told that the begode app is useless for that sort of thing. 

[BKW]

43 minutes ago, joeboots said:

Battery life according to the begode app or EUC world? I've been told that the begode app is useless for that sort of thing. 

EUC World

[BKW]

So I opened it up and saw the 600wh label on the battery packs. I also saw the two packed joined together via shrink wrap (see attachments).

They did a good job sealing connections up with silicon as you can see in the pictures (motor wires, etc).

With all this said, still strange about the 30% decrease in battery doing 3 miles. I am told it drop significantly after a certain percentage, but once again I started at 53% that day.

Anyway, maybe it was a fluke? Or maybe I need to update the firmware? I am using EUC World app btw. I'll go ahead and see if I can update the firmware and I'll ride in in near future and report back if I'm having any significant drops in battery life again.

Edited March 8, 2023 by BKW

[BKW]

Edited March 8, 2023 by BKW

[CrabChampion]

4 minutes ago, BKW said:

With all this said, still strange about the 30% decrease in battery doing 3 miles. I am told it drop significantly after a certain percentage, but once again I started at 53% that day

charge it up to full, let the battery do a full balance charge and then try again. It might just be a fluke given that it was the first ride on a fresh pack

[rebeuc]

21 minutes ago, BKW said:

With all this said, still strange about the 30% decrease in battery doing 3 miles. I am told it drop significantly after a certain percentage, but once again I started at 53% that day.

Oh, I missed earlier that you started at 53%

Assuming these cells behave similarly to the ones in the molicel s18, the bottom percents go by MUCH faster than the top percents.

I think this is because the higher amp draw cells spend much more time at the higher voltage reading and don't sag as much, so the controller assumes they are more full.

If you saw anything around 50% it was probably actually closer to 25%

[BKW]

10 minutes ago, rebeuc said:

Oh, I missed earlier that you started at 53%

Assuming these cells behave similarly to the ones in the molicel s18, the bottom percents go by MUCH faster than the top percents.

I think this is because the higher amp draw cells spend much more time at the higher voltage reading and don't sag as much, so the controller assumes they are more full.

If you saw anything around 50% it was probably actually closer to 25%

Huh? Well, that's confusing.

Probably the best way is the read the voltage levels?

Also, I don't like the "FUN LED" update that EUC World has. I updated it and it looks tacky and doesn't have a brake indicator. Anyone know how to go back to the previous LED update?

*EDIT: I re-did the update for "Mten4s_GW1011004" and it went back to the original LED lights on EUC World app

Edited March 8, 2023 by BKW

[mrelwood]

Btw, one thing about EUCw is that it has a few different battery percentage curves. I don’t remember their names, or which one was the familiar direct voltage-to-percentage conversion, but you might want to check which one yours is using.

[CrabChampion]

12 minutes ago, BKW said:

Also, I don't like the "FUN LED" update that EUC World has. I updated it and it looks tacky and doesn't have a brake indicator. Anyone know how to go back to the previous LED update?

I wish they just had it all in one firmware package and the default braking LED was just one of the presets for the FUN LED firmware. I can do my regular riding with proper brakelights, and have goofy RGB lights when on bike paths or at the park

[Tawpie]

5 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Btw, one thing about EUCw is that it has a few different battery percentage curves. I don’t remember their names, or which one was the familiar direct voltage-to-percentage conversion, but you might want to check which one yours is using.

I use the 'custom' setting, it allows you to enter voltages for full and empty. Keep in mind that the voltage of a Li Ion basically falls off a cliff below roughly 3.5 V/cell so don't misinterpret 35% voltage as 35% miles. I treat 35% the same as the yellow "get gas now" light in my car.

The 'optimized' setting attempts to convert your past energy usage into a miles-remaining percentage—I don't use this feature.

[mrelwood]

4 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Keep in mind that the voltage of a Li Ion basically falls off a cliff below roughly 3.5 V/cell

More like 2.7 - 3.2V, depending on the discharge rate:

[Tawpie]

1 minute ago, mrelwood said:

More like 2.7 - 3.2V, depending on the discharge rate:

True, true. You can for sure go lower as your "empty" point, and perhaps you should. I don't know how BG does their low battery tiltback, but I believe KS sets "walk mode" anytime the aggregate voltage drops below 3.15 V/cell. It'll release if the voltage rises, but it's very easy to dip back below the line. You can see from @mrelwood's chart that a bump in current demand from 0.2C to 0.5C will cause 0.1 V additional sag—enough to go from "have fun, but slowly" to "walk".

Doesn't really matter where I set mine, you can choose your own line! With an MTen, having to walk a mile isn't as big a deal (if you have a trolly handle!).

[mrelwood]

20 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I don't know how BG does their low battery tiltback, but I believe KS sets "walk mode" anytime the aggregate voltage drops below 3.15 V/cell.

The MSX had a similar system, although at 3.3V/cell. They nowadays go lower though.

 It actual worked really well for me, despite being much simpler than the Inmotion algorithms that seem to compare the wattage consumption and a few other levels to a predetermined speed curve and tilting back based on that. The MSX was very intuitive, once the battery level drops enough, the instant, direct, and increasing relation between the burden and tilt-back was easy to grasp. And it makes sense too, and doesn’t take more than a short line of code:

V < 3.3 ? tilt-back = yes

Edited March 8, 2023 by mrelwood

[BKW]

bad news:

started at 100% charge and less than 8 miles later it went down to 12%. Second time riding the wheel, brand new. I have pictures to prove it (see zip file below). I marked the pictures by time to show at what time I took the pictures.

After 30 minutes inside warm apartment the battery level remains at 12%. What I noticed while out was it looks like when I consistently rode the wheel the percentage was 11% lower than where it is idling (1% right after riding went up to 12% idling, etc).

The temperature was 34 degrees Fahrenheit out, or roughly 1 degree Celsius. All flat terrain. I weigh roughly 178 lbs. All the other stats are in the pictures, riding speed, avg riding speed, etc.

Do you think there is an issue with these batteries? I should be getting 20 miles out of these right? This was my second time riding the wheel, brand new.

 

mten4s.zip

Edited March 9, 2023 by BKW

[BKW]

1 hour ago, BKW said:

bad news:

started at 100% charge and less than 8 miles later it went down to 12%. Second time riding the wheel, brand new. I have pictures to prove it (see zip file below). I marked the pictures by time to show at what time I took the pictures.

After 30 minutes inside warm apartment the battery level remains at 12%. What I noticed while out was it looks like when I consistently rode the wheel the percentage was 11% lower than where it is idling (1% right after riding went up to 12% idling, etc).

The temperature was 34 degrees Fahrenheit out, or roughly 1 degree Celsius. All flat terrain. I weigh roughly 178 lbs. All the other stats are in the pictures, riding speed, avg riding speed, etc.

Do you think there is an issue with these batteries? I should be getting 20 miles out of these right? This was my second time riding the wheel, brand new.

 

 

I was given a datasheet of the 40T cells by ewheels. If I'm reading it correctly, it says at 0C (32F) I should get 80% of the battery capacity?

If that's the case, then if I'm expected to get 20 miles at 23C, then at 0C I should get 16 miles (80% * 20 miles = 16 miles)? My ride I got ~8 miles at 1C (34F), with 12% battery left over. Does this sound right to you?

Link to 40T datasheet:

https://www.dnkpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/SAMSUNG-INR21700-40T-Datasheet.pdf

Edited March 9, 2023 by BKW

[Paul A]

1 hour ago, BKW said:

should get 16 miles

 

One battery is not functioning?

[BKW]

27 minutes ago, Paul A said:

 

One battery is not functioning?

I don't know enough about this stuff to know!

I did get a response back from ewheels saying everything seems normal considering I'm riding in "near freezing temperature" (34F). But if you look at the datasheet that ewheels provided me in the same email it says at 0C (32F) I should have a discharge capacity of 80%. 20 miles is expected range at 23C, so at 0C I should get 80% that, or 16 miles? I'm not sure.

8 miles even in 34F doesn't seem "normal" to me

It was suggested I use a power meter to check discharge/charge cycle to access the Wh value. To do this, do I measure the Wh at 100% battery with the power meter, then again at 0%? 

Edited March 9, 2023 by BKW

[Chriull]

2 hours ago, BKW said:

Does this sound right to you?

Imho cells not only loose capacity but get more inefficient, too. Like an increased internal resistance.

33 minutes ago, BKW said:

It was suggested I use a power meter to check discharge/charge cycle to access the Wh value. To do this, do I measure the Wh at 100% battery with the power meter, then again at 0%? 

You'd need a power meter which counts energy (Wh) during the whole charge process.

Like many wlan plugs can do.

Euc eorld supports the discontinued tplink kasa hs110 and supports the shelly plug s.

Charge logging afair needs a premium account?

Edited March 9, 2023 by Chriull

[BKW]

8 hours ago, Chriull said:

Imho cells not only loose capacity but get more inefficient, too. Like an increased internal resistance.

You'd need a power meter which counts energy (Wh) during the whole charge process.

Like many wlan plugs can do.

Euc eorld supports the discontinued tplink kasa hs110 and supports the shelly plug s.

Charge logging afair needs a premium account?

I don't even know what power meter I have. I haven't used it in years.

People keep telling me that temperatures make the cells less efficient, but given the datasheet I provided it says I should expect 80% efficiency at 32F. I was riding at 34F and got more like 40% efficiency. (i.e., if 20 miles is max efficiency, then 80% * 20 miles = 16 miles at 32F). I got 8 miles at 34F. HOWEVER, I had 12% left and I weigh ~178 and I avg probably around 12 mph....

I don't know, I'll take reading with the power meter. But none of this seems right to me.

Edited March 9, 2023 by BKW