Mten4 announced!

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, Cobaltsaber said:

Crazy that the axle survived.

The axle is steel, but the pedal hanger is aluminum alloy.

You never know, you may be lucky, and clamping of the hanger to axle, and the axle itself are over designed.

If not, you find the axle become loser or even fracturing eventually over time due to fatigue damage.

Edited March 11, 2023 by techyiam

[rebeuc]

2 hours ago, BKW said:

Nice! You got the 600wh 40T mten4? Curious how the batteries are affected by Michigan cold weather and if it's anything like mine

Yes, 600Wh 40T mten4 from ewheels with the street tire. Pre-order had been placed back in September, so I was late to ordering.

All I have done at this point is assemble the wheel (side pads), visual inspection, and do a quick 'up and down the street' test today

It shipped with about 20% battery per euc world and riding it 0.813 miles brought that reading down to 7%

I'm going to be actually plugging it in to a charger soon, but there is snow predicted each of the next couple of days so I am again limited in the testing I can do.

Not to mention I felt surprisingly unsteady, it's a very different ride feel. I think that will get better once I attach the baby foam to the top edge, as that made it a bit painful to ride and I couldn't use the stance I normally would prefer as a result. I also heard that disconcerting clicking noise as I rode it on the bumpier parts of the sidewalk, but I was expecting that from other forum posts (caused by the handle flopping around).

[CrabChampion]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

The axle is steel, but the pedal hanger is aluminum alloy.

You never know, you may be lucky, and clamping of the hanger to axle, and the axle itself are over designed.

If not, you find the axle become loser or even fracturing eventually over time due to fatigue damage.

The axle is the same as the mten3 however but rotated 90 degrees and the hole for the wire is much smaller I believe. Lots of reports of the mten3 axle breaking so many came into the mten4 thinking the axle was also pretty weak. Its no hollowbore axle thats for sure. Dont think anyone has actually broken an mten4 axle yet, but ive seen people break the 20mm sherman axle before. The mten3/4 axle is only 16mm in diameter

[Paul A]

5 hours ago, Cobaltsaber said:

Crazy that the axle survived. 

 

Damage might be cumulative.

[conecones]

Let's not disregard the rider skill which has a lot of to do with how long a component like this axle can last. Someone who does not know how to absorb the impact will definitely break it in no time at all.

Keep in mind mountain bikes in the past have used 10mm hollow axles (QR style) doing drops like these - yes the wheels come with spokes which dampen the shock but it was largely the rider skill that determined if you snapped an axle or taco'ed your wheel.

[BKW]

On 3/11/2023 at 6:38 PM, rebeuc said:

Yes, 600Wh 40T mten4 from ewheels with the street tire. Pre-order had been placed back in September, so I was late to ordering.

All I have done at this point is assemble the wheel (side pads), visual inspection, and do a quick 'up and down the street' test today

It shipped with about 20% battery per euc world and riding it 0.813 miles brought that reading down to 7%

I'm going to be actually plugging it in to a charger soon, but there is snow predicted each of the next couple of days so I am again limited in the testing I can do.

Not to mention I felt surprisingly unsteady, it's a very different ride feel. I think that will get better once I attach the baby foam to the top edge, as that made it a bit painful to ride and I couldn't use the stance I normally would prefer as a result. I also heard that disconcerting clicking noise as I rode it on the bumpier parts of the sidewalk, but I was expecting that from other forum posts (caused by the handle flopping around).

Yeah, from my first ride it was 34-36F and I lost about 10% battery per mile. I started it at 53%. Ann Arbor, MI seems to be around the same temps as NYC currently. Your battery depletion looks to be around the same rate as mine as well.

My first ride it was wobbly at the start, then near the end I was already accustomed to it. I was also riding flat tire lower than 16PSI my first ride, which I didn't know. Later, 45PSI for second ride to experiment with high pressure to see if it affected mileage (it did by at least 25%). Second ride I was already accustomed to the wheel. Some say they like soft mode for whatever reason, but soft mode seems too soft and I can imagine easily cutting out the mten4 by essentially getting acceleration/braking assist from soft mode. Medium mode still felt too soft to me. Hard mode is nice I like it. There still is some tilt in hard mode, but it's perfect for me. I still don't feel like I know the limits of this wheel and I'm weary accelerating, even braking very hard. I find myself liking the 16mph range for cruising speed; above that, I get nervous.

Anyone know if it's true the smaller the battery size, the easier it is to be affected by cold weather? This sounds reasonable, but then I think about my smartphone always being on and not affected by cold weather, etc.

Edited March 13, 2023 by BKW

[UPONIT]

@BKW Don't know if you've already found padding for the sharp top edges, but Amazon has rolls of very good 3/4" thick neoprene foam with adhesive back. One layer along top edge was sufficient to save my shins.

Also, FWIW, Grizzla Baby pads fit nicely if you velcro.

Also, also: My understanding is that cold weather saps performance a LOT, not a little. So I'd think 34 degree weather in NY would murder the range... The batteries aren't exactly well insulated after all...

Also x 3: I still don't understand the actual exact kind of side impact that is bending the frames on some Mtens. Are we talking loose wheel impacts, or something crazy while you are on it?

The Minionten4 is my only Begode wheel, but it definitely lives up to the fit and finish reputation. I think the sheet metal benders for the frame used Metric and the trolley handle machines used iambic pentameter.

Here's hoping you beat it into submission and finally get to see how fun and useful it can be!

[BKW]

8 hours ago, UPONIT said:

@BKW Don't know if you've already found padding for the sharp top edges, but Amazon has rolls of very good 3/4" thick neoprene foam with adhesive back. One layer along top edge was sufficient to save my shins.

Also, FWIW, Grizzla Baby pads fit nicely if you velcro.

Also, also: My understanding is that cold weather saps performance a LOT, not a little. So I'd think 34 degree weather in NY would murder the range... The batteries aren't exactly well insulated after all...

Also x 3: I still don't understand the actual exact kind of side impact that is bending the frames on some Mtens. Are we talking loose wheel impacts, or something crazy while you are on it?

The Minionten4 is my only Begode wheel, but it definitely lives up to the fit and finish reputation. I think the sheet metal benders for the frame used Metric and the trolley handle machines used iambic pentameter.

Here's hoping you beat it into submission and finally get to see how fun and useful it can be!

Hey man, thank you!

The side bend of the frame is somewhat common from what I've gathered from others with the mten4. It's an easy fix to bend back. Just a weak frame from the side.

The reason I ask if a smaller battery is more affected by cold than a larger battery is because both my 16x and my sherman max are NOT affected by the cold in the same way the mten4 battery appears to be. So I am curious if the size of the battery, or the type of battery, is more affected by the cold? I'll end up googling it I guess

[CrabChampion]

31 minutes ago, BKW said:

Hey man, thank you!

The side bend of the frame is somewhat common from what I've gathered from others with the mten4. It's an easy fix to bend back. Just a weak frame from the side.

The reason I ask if a smaller battery is more affected by cold than a larger battery is because both my 16x and my sherman max are NOT affected by the cold in the same way the mten4 battery appears to be. So I am curious if the size of the battery, or the type of battery, is more affected by the cold? I'll end up googling it I guess

The mten4 I found in the cold is ICE cold. The battery is sitting directly on the aluminum chassis and that conducts heat away from the battery. If you are in cold temps, the display reports colder temps than any wheel that I have ever owned. The 16x and sherman generally being plastic shell wheels, the batteries wont be as cold as the mten4. Touch the frame on your mten4 outside between the wheel and the top casing. Your battery is sitting directly on that cold piece of metal

Edited March 13, 2023 by Cobaltsaber

[BKW]

22 hours ago, Cobaltsaber said:

The mten4 I found in the cold is ICE cold. The battery is sitting directly on the aluminum chassis and that conducts heat away from the battery. If you are in cold temps, the display reports colder temps than any wheel that I have ever owned. The 16x and sherman generally being plastic shell wheels, the batteries wont be as cold as the mten4. Touch the frame on your mten4 outside between the wheel and the top casing. Your battery is sitting directly on that cold piece of metal

Yes, my suspicion was that this may have been causing the battery to be cooler. There seems to be two camps of thought on this: One camp thinks "something is wrong with getting such low mileage", and the other camp thinks, "it's the cold causing lower battery mileage" -- both these camps own mten4s. It's good to hear confirmation from many saying it's the temperature causing battery life to lessen. I still have yet to do the wattage reading from 0% to 100% as it's been raining outside last couple days. I plan on doing this hopefully sometime this week.

Edited March 14, 2023 by BKW

[mrelwood]

 

22 hours ago, BKW said:

The reason I ask if a smaller battery is more affected by cold than a larger battery is because both my 16x and my sherman max are NOT affected by the cold in the same way the mten4 battery appears to be.

What cold does is decrease the current output of the batteries and increase the voltage sag. Which is caused by the cold and which is caused by the other, I’m not sure.

 Either way, battery packs with a lot of parallel cells (16X and especially the SherMax) are not affected by the cold as much. Larger batteries usually mean more parallel cells, so in that sense larger batteries are indeed affected less.

When out in the cold, you generally use a phone only for a few minutes in your warm hands and then store it in a warm pocket. Also, a phone usually uses very low currents, so the dip isn’t as obvious. The phone functions just as well even if the voltage drop was larger. But if you leave your phone out in the cold for 30 minutes and start watching a movie, the display will be sluggish and the battery won’t last as long as it does in the warm.

[BKW]

37 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

 

What cold does is decrease the current output of the batteries and increase the voltage sag. Which is caused by the cold and which is caused by the other, I’m not sure.

 Either way, battery packs with a lot of parallel cells (16X and especially the SherMax) are not affected by the cold as much. Larger batteries usually mean more parallel cells, so in that sense larger batteries are indeed affected less.

When out in the cold, you generally use a phone only for a few minutes in your warm hands and then store it in a warm pocket. Also, a phone usually uses very low currents, so the dip isn’t as obvious. The phone functions just as well even if the voltage drop was larger. But if you leave your phone out in the cold for 30 minutes and start watching a movie, the display will be sluggish and the battery won’t last as long as it does in the warm.

Thanks for the clarification. The parallel of cells is not something I took into consideration.

I will say though, I do food delivery in NYC in cold temps for many hours on end daily. Both my Android and iPhone are not affected by the cold. I have them running constantly. There is no lag or battery change as far as I'm aware of, and I've been out in negative temperatures Fahrenheit for hours on end. BUT, I don't discount what you're saying with the EUC batteries. I do not know enough about batteries to give any technical information, but real-world experience.

I also do vlogs as well. With the GoPro lithium-ion batteries, for instance, they are TERRIBLE in cold weather and tend to turn off 40% or lower in cold temps. However, GoPro released the Enduro batteries which do much better in cold temps, and I have yet had any problems with these (both Enduro and the Original batteries are same size/capacity, just built differently). I bring this up to say there could be some kind of technology akin to the GoPro Enduro batteries that make certain smartphones less affected by cold. This technology may not be in the EUC batteries; definitely not the mten4 battery (assuming).

Edited March 14, 2023 by BKW

[joeboots]

I never did a proper range test before frying my bms, but take this fwiw: my Mten4 delivered expected range of around 20-25 miles pretty consistently when i was riding it in nyc in november and december. plenty of near-freezing and sub-freezing riding during that time. i weigh about 220 and kept the tire at 40-50psi. also i ride a 48v cargo ebike in all weather and do not notice a huge difference in range at low and high temps. max 10%-15% difference

[BKW]

17 minutes ago, joeboots said:

I never did a proper range test before frying my bms, but take this fwiw: my Mten4 delivered expected range of around 20-25 miles pretty consistently when i was riding it in nyc in november and december. plenty of near-freezing and sub-freezing riding during that time. i weigh about 220 and kept the tire at 40-50psi. also i ride a 48v cargo ebike in all weather and do not notice a huge difference in range at low and high temps. max 10%-15% difference

what was the battery size and type? 750wh 50E? Or 600wh 40T? The 600wh should get less range than 750wh, right?

[BKW]

Me today:

After 6.20 miles (avg riding 10.3 mph, rider weight ~178lbs, ~30psi, outside temperature ~41F):

Edited March 15, 2023 by BKW

[joeboots]

4 hours ago, BKW said:

what was the battery size and type? 750wh 50E? Or 600wh 40T? The 600wh should get less range than 750wh, right?

750wh 50E. No idea. I've read (here?) that for ~reasons~ the 600wh should be similar range, but I don't claim to understand any of that.

[BKW]

8 hours ago, joeboots said:

750wh 50E. No idea. I've read (here?) that for ~reasons~ the 600wh should be similar range, but I don't claim to understand any of that.

I'm pretty dumb when it comes to batteries myself, but from what I understand, the 600wh 40T cells have less voltage sag than the 750wh 50E cells so the 40T cells can theoretically squeeze more out of a battery at lower voltage than the 50E cells; thus, basically utilizing similar range due to less voltage sag. Something like that. But, so far, it just looks like I'm losing range with my 600wh 40T batteries compared to your 750wh 50E (at least if you were getting 20-25 miles in Nov and Dec in NYC with your 750wh).

Edited March 16, 2023 by BKW

[UPONIT]

13 hours ago, BKW said:

Me today:

After 6.20 miles (avg riding 10.3 mph, rider weight ~178lbs, ~30psi, outside temperature ~41F):

It looks like you are enjoying it, yes?

[joeboots]

Just got word from alienrides that my replacement bms arrived and they're fixing my battery!!!

[BKW]

Took the mten4 to the pier, then circled Central Park, down through Times Square, ended with a stop at local Walgreens. Around 8 miles. Battery seems to be doing better with +10 degrees Fahrenheit:

Took

Edited March 17, 2023 by BKW

[BKW]

On 3/16/2023 at 5:30 AM, UPONIT said:

It looks like you are enjoying it, yes?

Today I really enjoyed riding it. It's been raining and gusty winds last couple days. Today was calm with a forecast. In +10 degree fahrenheit seems to be doing slightly better on mileage. I have total control of this wheel and I find it fun riding in the city because the obstacles I have to surpass while riding; makes it like a game and enjoyable.

[Edidas]

Anyone know how to turn off that beep when above 15mph? I tried both begode app and euc world but it still keep beeping around this speed even when fully charge

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Edidas said:

Anyone know how to turn off that beep when above 15mph? I tried both begode app and euc world but it still keep beeping around this speed even when fully charge

First wheel, new rider? Normally new wheels have speed locked for some miles..(At least for some manufacturers. Don't know if begode has that too.) Change speed alarms in the app?

Maybe those beeps are warnings? Not speed alarms?

Also DON'T EVER turn them off. Or put the alarms at "max" speed. Simply put them higher.. If Mten4 can go 25mph put it ~20-22mph. Lower safer.. (Lets turn off alarms Hurp-Durp..... Next thing you know are the taste of ground. As your face is kissing it.)  Alarms are made so you don't go over the ability of wheel.. So you don't crash. (Again don't know - if you know that.) Go over the limits of EUC = EUC will simply power off.

 

I just listed most of them, as you didn't give much info to go by.  

Edited March 26, 2023 by Funky

[Edidas]

5 hours ago, Funky said:

First wheel, new rider? Normally new wheels have speed locked for some miles..(At least for some manufacturers. Don't know if begode has that too.) Change speed alarms in the app?

Maybe those beeps are warnings? Not speed alarms?

Also DON'T EVER turn them off. Or put the alarms at "max" speed. Simply put them higher.. If Mten4 can go 25mph put it ~20-22mph. Lower safer.. (Lets turn off alarms Hurp-Durp..... Next thing you know are the taste of ground. As your face is kissing it.)  Alarms are made so you don't go over the ability of wheel.. So you don't crash. (Again don't know - if you know that.) Go over the limits of EUC = EUC will simply power off.

 

I just listed most of them, as you didn't give much info to go by.  

Not my first wheel, I turn off first alarm on begode app I suppose it's the first warning which is 15ish mph, I know it's not safe to turn off all alarm,I only need one at 20mph as I tried not to go over it, but cruising at 16 mph should consider safe unless I'm under 50% battery, it gets pretty annoying the wheel just keep beeping at 16mph.... 

[misterdalto]

On 3/7/2023 at 6:29 PM, Cobaltsaber said:

Im not sure why they even split the packs to be smaller with the different cells. Who asked for that?

I specifically remember seeing a chart with the EX30, EX30s, Master pro, Master pro s, mten4 and mten4s and the only difference on the spec sheet was the use of 40t cells

so with my own personal mTen4 750wh 50E, i was curious to get the pack out to see about swapping in some high discharge 42v packs in series, that i have.

Turns out, begode is continuing their pursuit of ever cheaper parts by not even having a true 20S pack in the mTen4.

The mTen4 84V 20S2P is ACTUALLY comprised of

• 2 x 10S2P packs wired in series, then wrapped together as a single pack, rating it for 84v, but noting via labeling that this is 42V packs, in format of A/B to indicate they are series, not the same (parallel). See link to google photos album

https://photos.app.goo.gl/EVQqUAeeMXS7UuD76

so, when the 40T high discharge packs were designed, it is likely they are using 20S1P packs outright, going for a easier modular approach to battery sizing options with 300wh, 600wh variants. To be more specific on my speculation, it is even more likely the 20S1P 40T packs are also a 42V-A/B but comprised of 2 x 10S1P per 20S1P 300wh module.

begodes logic(assumed) is simple, be it flawed -

• 10S BMS will ALWAYS be cheaper than a 20S BMS.
• for their newest 100v, T4 as example - a 12S is cheaper than 24S BMS. each one of the four T4 packs hold 24 cells, so there is no reason to not use a 24S BMS other than cost/availability of parts. 
• for the OG 134v: 8S is cheaper than 16S, 32S. 8S under performed, they spent what they had to to satisfy demand and bumped to 16S BMS architecture
• for the current 134v lineup just as 16S is cheaper than 32S BMS.

32S BMS exist, they are just extremely uncommon and therefore higher cost for higher current components. lower series BMS will always be cheaper d/t application across entire PEV sector and beyond, making product available, competitive, cheaper. 

Begode wants off the shelf parts/components for rapid prototyping aka small batch production for consumers.

King Song & Inmotion use BMS that are configured rated as the full series/output rating. They achieve this by designing their BMS in house. This bypasses the issues with lack in availability of off the shelf BMS/components that can handle 30S, 32S. they exist, just are not common. designing things like this inhouse requires commitment to product cycle life, which is not currently reflected in the products continuously being; discontinued, introduced, abandoned 

i do love my begode wheels, but its that i love what i have made them to be, i did not love what I was sold, as much.

eucfluid here hehe 

Edited March 29, 2023 by misterdalto