V12 Cutout tracking

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Jeff Earl said:

I have noticed that the V12 seems to favor a slightly lower tire pressure than my 16X running the same CST tire. For some reason, the 38psi that I was accustomed to sporting on the Kingsong results in tooth rattling vibrations on the V12.

Between the two in their current configuration, which wheel did you find more stable, and which more comfortable, riding through the urban jungle?

[Jeff Earl]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Between the two in their current configuration, which wheel did you find more stable, and which more comfortable, riding through the urban jungle?

That's an interesting question. The V12 definitely feels more solid to me, maybe more "planted" than the 16X.  This may be due to the additional weight or the fact that 1700+ miles have softened my 16x--like a well worn pair of sneakers.  In terms of my comfort level with the two wheels, I'm still getting used to the V12.  I'm way more confident on the 16x right now, but I have no doubt that the V12 will prove to be more capable in almost every way.  The 16x will likely remain my wheel choice for certain errands (superior trolley handle) and in situations where lots of stair-lifting are expected.

[techyiam]

32 minutes ago, Jeff Earl said:

In terms of my comfort level with the two wheels, I'm still getting used to the V12.  I'm way more confident on the 16x right now, but I have no doubt that the V12 will prove to be more capable in almost every way.

Sorry,  I meant to ask, on bumpy roads, which wheel would be more pleasant to ride?

34 minutes ago, Jeff Earl said:

The 16x will likely remain my wheel choice for certain errands (superior trolley handle) and in situations where lots of stair-lifting are expected.

I know what you mean. My Begode T3 is just a touch lighter than the 16X. The T3 feels so much lighter to lift up flights of stairs.

[Jeff Earl]

35 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Sorry,  I meant to ask, on bumpy roads, which wheel would be more pleasant to ride?

Now that I've lowered the tire pressure they are quite similar in terms of comfort on rough pavement. I might give a slight nod to the 16x, but I should also mention that I installed stiffer honeycomb pedals on the V12.  I suspect the stock 16x pedals are dampening vibrations to some extent.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Jeff Earl said:

Now that I've lowered the tire pressure they are quite similar in terms of comfort on rough pavement. I might give a slight nod to the 16x, but I should also mention that I installed stiffer honeycomb pedals on the V12.  I suspect the stock 16x pedals are dampening vibrations to some extent.

Thank you for reply. 

That 16X sounds like a good wheel. The reason I asked was because I got the impression that the V12 used firmware to make it more compliant to bumps. Supposedly, if you optimize pedal sensitivity and split mode settings, bump compliance, acceleration and braking can improve.

Interesting that you needed to even lower tire pressure on the V12 to match bump compliance with the 16X, even though they both are using the same tire.

Good to know. Thanks.

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

they both are using the same tire.

Same size rim... 

Tire selection is a bigger deal than you might think when it comes to ride. A tire with a stiff sidewall (motorcycle or tubeless) will be, well, stiffer over the bumps. If the profile is wrong, a tire can be very skittish or refuse to turn. Different tread patterns, especially in knobbies can make turning easy or treacherous. Tire weight affects acceleration. The change can be dramatic.

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

the V12 used firmware to make it more compliant to bumps.

My understanding is the firmware changes how sensitive it is to acceleration and braking input, and allows you to set them independently (very innovative, nobody else does this). I would be surprised if firmware could change how a wheel handles bumps—perhaps it can though?

Edited June 19, 2022 by Tawpie

[Paul A]

Low tyre pressure, soft compound , zero tread pattern/maximum surface area, maximises acceleration.

Demonstrated by extreme sport of drag racing.

Some riders might even copy the deploying parachute for greater braking...

 

 

[techyiam]

 

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

they both are using the same tire.

 

3 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Same size rim... 

 

10 hours ago, Jeff Earl said:

I have noticed that the V12 seems to favor a slightly lower tire pressure than my 16X running the same CST tire.

 

 

...

3 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Tire selection is a bigger deal than you might think when it comes to ride. A tire with a stiff sidewall (motorcycle or tubeless) will be, well, stiffer over the bumps. If the profile is wrong, a tire can be very skittish or refuse to turn. Different tread patterns, especially in knobbies can make turning easy or treacherous. Tire weight affects acceleration. The change can be dramatic.

I just am on my third tire now on my V12. First, there was the CST-1488 16x3.0 bicycle tire. Next, I put on a CST 16X2.5, scooter, tubeless tire, and just now, I mounted a Cordial 2.75x12 scooter tube tire. My initial impression on the latter looks very, very promising. My wanting to to buy a Sherman has diminished somewhat. My V12 feels significantly more planted and stable at 50+ km/h now.

 

3 hours ago, Tawpie said:

My understanding is the firmware changes how sensitive it is to acceleration and braking input, and allows you to set them independently (very innovative, nobody else does this). I would be surprised if firmware could change how a wheel handles bumps—perhaps it can though?

I can feel the difference, so can the V12 riders in the Portland euc crew, as reported by Ms. Crusher. My only question was whether this firmware feature gives the V12 an edge on comfort when compared to other non-suspension 16" euc's. 

[adrianqbs]

On 6/10/2022 at 2:12 PM, adrianqbs said:

Well guys, greeting from sunny Kuala Lumpur once again.

Inmotion-al Damage - the 3rd board failure

In a country where the Inmotion V12 costs about 3x the average monthly salary, this is quite the ordeal.

A replacement driver board was received from Inmotion a few days ago and was installed by my dealer, along with a control board from the same batch as my first replacement board (he received them at the same time, in the same package). We installed everything at half speed, making sure that every step was done accordingly, with constant reference to Inmotion's official video and Eevee's replacement video. We put everything together, and turned the wheel on, AND IT CAME TO LIFE. Hurrah!!!!

We then tested all functions, and it was all working fine! We then left it to charge and planned to bring it out to test on the road the next day.

Returning the next day (last night), excitedly putting velcro on some new pads, holding back the excitement to try the good as new wheel out once again.

We turned the wheel on, went through all the basic functions, no issues. Trollied it outside, put in on the kickstand to put my shoes on. Set the wheel upright, and we heard a pop, and the wheel went dead.

Immediately texted the Inmotion rep, and we pushed the wheel out into the open and began a video for Inmotion. The tyre was still spinning freely at this point and it was still connected to the Inmotion app.

We tried to turn the wheel on again, and we heard a series of pops and the wheel went completely dead. This time, the tyre had the sort of jerking resistance that is charecteristic of a MOSFET failure. We haven't yet opened the wheel up to assess the damage. But it looks very much like the second board failure.

So, we went out and took my new old RS HT for a joyride. Gonna begin a waterproofing and speaker grill project on that wheel soon.

At this point, we are waiting to hear back from Inmotion. Guess it's gonna take a while before the wheel is rideable again. And much longer before I will have any sort of confidence to ride it beyond any sort of boring speed.

Hi all,

Here's an update on the third board burnout. Inmotion had given the greenlight to open up the wheel to assess the damage and this is what we found. Waiting for feedback now to see how it goes. Most likely will send them all the damaged driver (2) and control (3) boards for them to investigate and try to figure out what has happened. Hopefully, will be able to send them the entire heatsink and board cover aseembly, get them to install and test the entire unit before sending it back to us.

On the other hand, got a nice nice Begode RS HT to tide me over in the meantime. The highlight would surely be the speakers, makes the rides just that much more entertaining.

[jimjam.nyc]

Hey so here is an odd new thing since changing my board. I dont think its relevant to anything.. Just something i noticed. 

My v12 used to charge to exactly 100.2V per pack. Now with the new board it charges to 100.7v per pack. Everything is all balanced out still and no issues. I just thought it was an odd thing since changing the board. 

I usually check my battery packs before and after every ride and charge to make sure they are with in balance.. And saw this yesterday before heading out

 

 

[Begodecrashtestdummy]

So glad I went with the rs19 high speed instead of the v12.one of the few good decisions I made this year 🤣 .I already put on 1500km in 6 weeks of riding when I could have had an inmotion my pet rock 

[meepmeepmayer]

43 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said:

Now with the new board it charges to 100.7v per pack.

Voltage measurements on EUCs aren't very precise. I would say that lies plainy inside the measurement uncertainty. So your batteries are the same, the new board just spits out a slightly different number.

[Paul g]

An other cut out reported for V12 HT by a user in Minsk at very low speed (close to 0 km/h) on 22 June 2022.

 

[Robse]

1 hour ago, Paul g said:

An other cut out reported for V12 HT by a user in Minsk at very low speed (close to 0 km/h) on 22 June 2022.

 

Yes - i think he's got a point there at 3:32  - i don't understand one single word, but it sounds serious ....

[Paul A]

1 hour ago, Paul g said:

An other cut out reported for V12 HT by a user in Minsk at very low speed (close to 0 km/h) on 22 June 2022.

 

 

From the video comments and translations:

EN:

What happend? I'm just slowly riding forvard, next I'm freezing for 2 second in vertical position(it's just my a balance training), next I felt that wheel just lost horizont and I had to step off and wheel fallen on the ground After that I just turn it on like nothing happend

 

RU:

The charge was 80%, the application was not connected, the wheel was turned on 5 minutes before the incident, drove 500 meters slowly, 400 meters before the incident turned around with a pendulum (i.e., turned back and forth) During the incident, I slowly drove forward, stopped, froze for two seconds (i.e. stood upright), felt that the wheel was not holding the horizon, dismounted, the wheel fell, I picked it up, held the power button for a second and a half, it turned on, caught the horizon and it was ready to go! ALL!

 

From comments by the YouTuber:

3 days ago (edited)

additional info settings: Drive Mode: Off-road Pedals Sens: 100% Split Ride Mode: off Sound Wave: on Spin-kill: on Balance Angle: 0 Assist Balance: off About Vehicle: Driver Board: V4.103.32 Main Board: V1.6.12 Display Board: V2.1.58

[Funky]

Turn on subs - auto translate. He's speaking russian - which i understand about 30%  More or less subs are right.

He was practicing pendulum. He rode little bit forwards - stopped in place didn't do any turns nothing simply stopped - stepped off and euc simply turned off, without any warnings. Later he opened the wheel, etc.. Nothing. He turned it on everything works as it should. Like nothing happened and he doesn't know what happened.

Cutout happened at 0 speed he was standing in place 1 feet on euc 1 feet on ground.

Around 0.40 seconds he starts to talk how it happened. And what he was doing.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Funky

[Cress]

I love my V12, arguably the best value of all 16" non-suspension wheels.  Thanks to the Manufacturer for positive aspects of the V12 BUT the Manufacturer is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUSTWORTHY with respect to safety, reliability, or service-life of its' products.  EUC Manufacturers have a 'process' problem because they do not incorporate inspection / re-evaluation of components, design and production.

@Jason McNeil , eWheels, references lack of 5x9s (99.999%) reliability planning at any Manufacturer.  @Tawpie , earlier in this V12 Cut-out thread, describes multiple disciplines working in a production process for an electronic product.  These are two perspectives on familiar culture in manufacturing that ALWAYS incorporates MULTIPLE disciplines at MULTIPLE points in the design->production process to eliminate as many defects as possible before a product is used by the public.  We are so familiar with the design->production process that we have to think how many times our work is reviewed.  

Until EUC Manufacturers change their process to incorporate review of design, components and production we correct EUC problems after beta-testing.  Reference the early history of aircraft, the number of scientific, technology and engineering experts needed to make an airplane reliable is a story that teaches a lesson: if you want people to buy and fly your airplane you live and work in a 5x9s culture of reliability.

I admit to delusion when I say the V12 is better than other 16" EUCs.  I could and should be honest with myself and wait until I've finished a beta-testing period with the Hunteck motor controller.  Psychology is more complicated than engineering. 

[Robse]

"To V12 or not to V12", that's the question.  Been looking at this wheel for over 1 year now. Lots of trouble.   I like the design and the specs; 16" with NO suspension. Pedals with adjust, good range and speed.     And finally, when it seems that the problems have been solved,   then along comes something like this (above), a unmotivated sudden cutout "out of the blue", with no explanation...  Dammit!   Yesterday: Was so close to pressing the "buy" button, and now what the f... to do? Wait another year?  Maybe wait for the "V13", and then 2 years after release of that thing it will be useable?.. and the V12 will get cheaper?

SIGH!

[Steve Evans]

10 minutes ago, Robse said:

"To V12 or not to V12", that's the question.  Been looking at this wheel for over 1 year now. Lots of trouble.   I like the design and the specs; 16" with NO suspension. Pedals with adjust, good range and speed.     And finally, when it seems that the problems have been solved,   then along comes something like this (above), a unmotivated sudden cutout "out of the blue", with no explanation...  Dammit!   Yesterday: Was so close to pressing the "buy" button, and now what the f... to do? Wait another year?  Maybe wait for the "V13", and then 2 years after release of that thing it will be useable?.. and the V12 will get cheaper?

SIGH!

cutouts occurring when the wheel is at a standstill dont worry me too much. this is because its not related to mosfet failure and that these wheels use different logic if the wheel is stationary (eg kill button and power button will not operate if the wheel is in motion). not saying its NOT an issue, just saying its not as critical as previous issues.

my 2c

[Tawpie]

22 minutes ago, Robse said:

and now what the f... to do?

cash in 7 of your lucky charms and buy now! From a reputable dealer.

For many many reasons, do not sell the 16X until well into 2023.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Tawpie

[Robse]

2 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

cash in 7 of your lucky charms and buy now! From a reputable dealer.

For many many reasons, do not sell the 16X until well into 2023.

My 16X never goes away   In fact, for a long time i was hoping that KS would build a "upgraded / new edition"  of the 16X  - with just a little bit more power and speed (just like the V12)  the only 2 things i am missing.  But nono - Suspension and Fancy looks, S20 or S22 or whatever comes along. Not my kind of wheel.    

[Paul g]

4 hours ago, evans036 said:

cutouts occurring when the wheel is at a standstill dont worry me too much. this is because its not related to mosfet failure and that these wheels use different logic if the wheel is stationary (eg kill button and power button will not operate if the wheel is in motion). not saying its NOT an issue, just saying its not as critical as previous issues.

my 2c

And if it takes off under your feet with no reason, just like it happened twice to Adam Wrong Way?

[Paul A]

Falling off from a cutout at low speed and into the path of a car.

This thread commenced on December 30, 2021.

The V12 saga seems to be never ending...

Edited June 27, 2022 by Paul A

[mhpr262]

On 6/26/2022 at 12:05 AM, Funky said:

 

He was practicing pendulum.

That is one of the toughest things you can do to an EUC. Maybe it overheated and as soon as it realized there was no load and no speed anymore it switched off to protect itself? Doesnt seem like the classical cutout.

[Tawpie]

15 minutes ago, mhpr262 said:

as soon as it realized there was no load and no speed anymore it switched off to protect itself?

Perhaps...

But seems a bit of a stretch! I mean, some firmware can't manage an odometer or convert metric to imperial these days...

Edited June 27, 2022 by Tawpie