V12 Cutout tracking

[James M]

4 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Oh man, that's really bad news. Hopefully you weren't badly injured?

Understandably it will be a while until confidence riding a wheel can be restored—they're not supposed to just drop you like that. Thank you for the reminder that this is an inherently unsafe activity and that bad things can happen. We all need to ride with that in mind.

 

Thank you Tawpie, I appreciate that. That's what I thought too. My wife told me that as it was bouldering towards her and eventually stopped it finally said please be careful about 20 feet away from where I was laying 

[Waulnut]

1 hour ago, James M said:

Hi everyone, I just wanted to let you know and confirm that the V12HS even with the updated board cuts out. I drive extremely modestly on commuter mode not going faster than 30 kph and I just ate it. To make matters worse, it was at 92% battery. There is a one second beep and then it completely cut out. I have the English language pack added so I would have expected more all of a sudden. I was just on the ground. If you guys think this is a safe wheel, you guys are out of your mind. While many of us want to believe that this is a safe wheel, we are simply lying to ourselves with all of the strong data suggesting that it's not even with the updated board. I don't know about you but I work for a living and if I'm in a wheelchair or hospital I won't be able to provide for my family. This wheel has absolutely turned me off. This is really frustrating as just earlier today I bought a seat and some new pedals and and the type of person who follows all of the guys on YouTube and gets excited every time there's a new video out. I'm extremely disappointed that this happened and I just want to warn you all that even with an updated board, it doesn't mean a thing. If you guys have any questions at all, please feel free to ask.

Did the motor get "locked" after it died? Which would mean mosfets burned out.

[supercurio]

@James M so sorry that happened to you. Clearly that should not happen anymore that this point, and certainly not in the circumstances you are describing.

I have many questions but that can wait for the time past the shock. First, let's focus on the recovery. Thanks for alerting us.

[James M]

13 hours ago, Waulnut said:

Did the motor get "locked" after it died? Which would mean mosfets burned out.

Hi Walnut, 

After I picked it up I was able to turn it back on and it self balanced again. I did notice however what sounded and perhaps felt like a cracking sound/feeling while walking it almost perhaps as if the magnets were slipping but I could be wrong. 

[James M]

12 hours ago, supercurio said:

@James M so sorry that happened to you. Clearly that should not happen anymore that this point, and certainly not in the circumstances you are describing.

I have many questions but that can wait for the time past the shock. First, let's focus on the recovery. Thanks for alerting us.

Hi Supercurio, I have to say you really seem like a cool guy. I've seen you respond to others before like this and you seem very genuine and down to earth. Thanks for your kind words. My biggest shock is really sadness. This sport really shocked me on how much I fell in love with it. I'm really sad to let it go. In kind of a last desperation I filled google with searches such as what is the safest euc, what euc won't cut out and so forth and came up short. When those questions seem to be answered the consensus seems to be that there's no such thing and it's a risk we need to take when riding. 

[techyiam]

5 minutes ago, James M said:

Hi Walnut, 

After I picked it up I was able to turn it back on and it self balanced again. I did notice however what sounded and perhaps felt like a cracking sound/feeling while walking it almost perhaps as if the magnets were slipping but I could be wrong. 

So your mosfets didn't fry. You were not over torqueing. You were no where near top speed. And you were not low on battery. Yet you have a cutout. The plot thickens. 

Hope that you have a quick and complete recovery. 

[techyiam]

2 minutes ago, James M said:

I'm really sad to let it go. In kind of a last desperation I filled google with searches such as what is the safest euc, what euc won't cut out and so forth and came up short. When those questions seem to be answered the consensus seems to be that there's no such thing and it's a risk we need to take when riding.

You may be in luck. Inmotion is claiming that their up and coming V13 will not cutout for a rider weighing 170 lbs or less, and traveling at less than 60 mph. This should be the first of its kind.

[chanman]

12 hours ago, techyiam said:

You may be in luck. Inmotion is claiming that their up and coming V13 will not cutout for a rider weighing 170 lbs or less, and traveling at less than 60 mph. This should be the first of its kind.

It's a completely ludicrous claim. It might be able to deliver so much power that you can't physically overpower it, but that means nothing in the face of a hardware or software issue. If they actually wanted to make that claim they could try to go for fully redundant components, but that adds a lot of cost and weight and complexity for no performance gain.

Edited August 3, 2022 by chanman

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, chanman said:

It's a completely ludicrous claim. It might be able to deliver so much power that you can't physically overpower it, but that means nothing in the face of a hardware or software issue. If they actually wanted to make that claim they could try to go for fully redundant components, but that adds a lot of cost and weight and complexity for no performance gain.

Do you know there have been air bags that did not to deploy in the event of an accident. Do they put in two for each occupant for redundancy. Nope, not required by federal law.

Do you know that there have been cases where the front axles in cars break clean off while driving. Do they put in dual axles and wheels for redundancy. Nope, not required by federal law.

How about helicopters? Why are they not banned?

There many, many examples.

It is not only because of cutouts why euc riders wear sufficiently protective safety gear all the time. There are so many expected ways to get hurt while riding an euc.

Other than early batch related issues, how often do euc's cutout due to failures of components. Can't say I have heard of many. But on the other, have there been many cutouts due to over torqueing or other rider errors? You bet ya.

Anyone who rides an euc thinking that he or she will have zero chance of getting hurt is delusional, to be frank. No one is that naive. Of all the people I have come across, riders and nor riders, basically everyone predicts riders will get hurt. The only question is to what degree, and how many times. My only fear of cutouts is not due to a malfunctions, but rather inadequate headroom. 

Did you know there were people who rode the V12 HS knowingly it can cutout at anytime under any circumstances? I was one of them. It was known that the mosfets used had thin margins. Some mosfets may also have manufacturing defectives. And lastly, due to alignment issues, some mosfets insulators may had been cracked during installation, and it may be possible to short out at a later time due to shock or vibration (I suspect low probability). 

However, when I rode my V12, I rode as it was a newly released wheel. Trust has to be earned. I took extra precautionary and protective measures, and took extra steps to mitigate risks.

Furthermore, you can't be that naive to think that newly released euc's have zero chance of cutting out due to malfunctions, or other early batch ssues. How about some recent examples: Abrams, V12, Master, S22 (doing a recall in China as we speak).

At this early stage of euc evolution, to expect zero chance of cutouts at the price point people are willing to pay is not facing reality.

My take is that if Inmotion's cutout preventive measures implemented in the V13 function as claimed, excluding early batch issues, the V13 will be a godsend. No other wheel will come close.

Edited August 4, 2022 by techyiam

[enaon]

15 hours ago, techyiam said:

You may be in luck. Inmotion is claiming that their up and coming V13 will not cutout for a rider weighing 170 lbs or less, and traveling at less than 60 mph. This should be the first of its kind.

the same dude that designed the v12 controller fiasco, after blaming Infineon for making bad mosfets, is now saying that his new controller will deliver 1000 amps. And he doesn't even brake a smile. We can give him that. 
 

[chanman]

I'm not sure what prompted that rant, but the claim was that it literally would not cut out no? I have no fears about pushing my wheels beyond their limits, and cutting out via overlean, I know the limits well. I have plenty of healthy fears of a single piece of silicon failing and sending me flying, especially given the track records of V11s and V12s, and I'd rather see that addressed if we're going to make claims of not having to worry about cutouts.

Edited August 4, 2022 by chanman

[techyiam]

Says the man (@chanman) who rides an S18 and an Mten-3.

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by techyiam

[MegaObi]

On 7/6/2022 at 1:31 AM, vBlitz said:

Had a cutout yesterday, I filled the form.

Here's a summary:

• V12 HS batch 2, original board
• dry flat dirt trail
• 40/45kph
• was at 74% battery at the start
• was at 59% battery at the time of the crash
• casual cruising, no strong acceleration
• rode about 10km before it happened
• the wheel has a total of 4250km (in 3 months)
• I usually ride it pretty hard

So, it suddenly loss balance and I fell forward, sliding on my stomach for 5 meters.

The wheel was still on, and keeps working.

Only light injuries, and the wheel is intact.

I rode it today (not exceeding 30kph), and seems to work like any other day.

I will see to get a replacement board after all. I thought that it was ok after 4000km, but it seems not

Daymn this is a good heads up man.

im almost at 4K without any cutouts I got replacement board but I have been lazy to put it in. Looks like I will do the swap out this weekend

[MegaObi]

On 8/3/2022 at 6:04 AM, James M said:

Hi everyone, I just wanted to let you know and confirm that the V12HS even with the updated board cuts out. I drive extremely modestly on commuter mode not going faster than 30 kph and I just ate it. To make matters worse, it was at 92% battery. There is a one second beep and then it completely cut out. I have the English language pack added so I would have expected more all of a sudden. I was just on the ground. If you guys think this is a safe wheel, you guys are out of your mind. While many of us want to believe that this is a safe wheel, we are simply lying to ourselves with all of the strong data suggesting that it's not even with the updated board. I don't know about you but I work for a living and if I'm in a wheelchair or hospital I won't be able to provide for my family. This wheel has absolutely turned me off. This is really frustrating as just earlier today I bought a seat and some new pedals and and the type of person who follows all of the guys on YouTube and gets excited every time there's a new video out. I'm extremely disappointed that this happened and I just want to warn you all that even with an updated board, it doesn't mean a thing. If you guys have any questions at all, please feel free to ask.

Daymn. That sucks man. I hope you have a swift recovery. I haven’t done the board swap yet on my v12hs yet. Could it possibly have anything to do with the installation? Did you installed it yourself?

[techyiam]

12 minutes ago, MegaObi said:

im almost at 4K without any cutouts I got replacement board but I have been lazy to put it in. Looks like I will do the swap out this weekend

I rode my batch 2 V12 for more than 4500 km's before swapping to black board. After I received the black driver board, like you, I also didn't swapped it out right away. I never had a cutout.

On hindsight, I would say the replacement board is an upgrade. After board replacement, firmware upgrade to 1.6.19, and set to offroad mode, the motor runs smoother, less strained, and more refined. 

Edited August 4, 2022 by techyiam

[chanman]

I... don't know what you're trying to say here, and you can't get my name right. Like I said, I know the limits of my wheels and I don't exceed them. To my knowledge the S18 and mten (which I've sold actually) haven't experienced widespread board failures in the same way.

 

[EdLeszczynski]

On 8/3/2022 at 12:59 PM, James M said:

On 8/2/2022 at 11:04 PM, James M said:

aThank you Tawpie, I appreciate that. That's what I thought too. My wife told me that as it was bouldering towards her and eventually stopped it finally said please be careful about 20 feet away from where I was laying 

Hi James, I know having a crash really sucks and hope you recover soon. However from what you describe it might not be a cutoff, especially because that "be careful" part. Inmotions tell you to be careful when you lean the wheel over on it's side, not when you overpower. So it makes sense for v12 to say "be careful" after a regular crash, meaning the wheel was still on after the crash... therefore it wasn't completely off... so not a cut-off. I know our minds go straight to cut-offs when crushing EUCs because it's the scariest possibility for many but there so much more that can go wrong.

I invite you to contact your seller and ask them to contact inmotion, you can upload a log via inmotion app, they'll be able to check the riding log data at the time of the crash and see if there was a cutoff or anything else.

Are you riding with power pads? I recall times crashing my 16x when I first got it on tiny bumps personally because I didn't have any power pads and tire pressure was too high for a beginner. I also remember guessing if that was a cutoff or not, simply because it all happens so fast.

Also recently I had a crash on my v12hs with a wheel just riding out in front of me, I thought it's the same software issue Adam from wrongway youtube was having, but inmotion checked power delivery for me and confirmed that in-fact the wheel's acceleration was imputed by the user, what actually happened as I now understand is my kickstand was down... and while rolling off of the rock it caught the rock lifting the back part of the wheel as if I was accelerating when I wasn't.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Chriull
Repaired Quoting

[James M]

9 hours ago, EdLeszczynski said:

Hi James, I know having a crash really sucks and hope you recover soon. However from what you describe it might not be a cutoff, especially because that "be careful" part. Inmotions tell you to be careful when you lean the wheel over on it's side, not when you overpower. So it makes sense for v12 to say "be careful" after a regular crash, meaning the wheel was still on after the crash... therefore it wasn't completely off... so not a cut-off. I know our minds go straight to cut-offs when crushing EUCs because it's the scariest possibility for many but there so much more that can go wrong.

I invite you to contact your seller and ask them to contact inmotion, you can upload a log via inmotion app, they'll be able to check the riding log data at the time of the crash and see if there was a cutoff or anything else.

Are you riding with power pads? I recall times crashing my 16x when I first got it on tiny bumps personally because I didn't have any power pads and tire pressure was too high for a beginner. I also remember guessing if that was a cutoff or not, simply because it all happens so fast.

Also recently I had a crash on my v12hs with a wheel just riding out in front of me, I thought it's the same software issue Adam from wrongway youtube was having, but inmotion checked power delivery for me and confirmed that in-fact the wheel's acceleration was imputed by the user, what actually happened as I now understand is my kickstand was down... and while rolling off of the rock it caught the rock lifting the back part of the wheel as if I was accelerating when I wasn't.

Hi there, 

Thanks so much for your response I really appreciate you taking the time to write. Anything is possible. What occured was that the please be careful only happened after it rolled about 20 feet and finally stopped. Of course my memory could be hazzy and I didn't actually see that happen it was my wife that said she saw it roll towards her then once it stopped finally said please be careful.  I'm really happy to hear that inmotion can diagnose this. I'd love to hear what they say happened. I'm also hoping that maybe the v13 solves cutout problems for good though I may be naive. How are you making out recovering from your fall? 

[Paul g]

I opened my “burned”  V12 for the first time since the cutout happened.

I’ve checked all FETs and are OK (they are the initial FETs and initial board).

However I found the real reason for the cutout and that is a squashed capacitor on the drive board.

This is a serious board design flaw and @Inmotion Global should change the design for this to stop happening again.

Practically the heat dissipation aluminium extruded pice for MOSFETs on the main board ( that sits on top ) is situated so close (from above) to some smaller capacitors on the driver board (bellow) that when the main board is installed on top it is quite easy to clip with the extruded piece the small capacitor and squash it. 

I think InMotion should move those two capacitors more to the left and right. It also has an other taller capacitor situated in the middle of the board that comes dangerously close to the extruded piece which should be moved away towards the edge of the board. I looked at the board and there seem to be space to reconfigure the board to add these changes.

I’ve measured the distance between the mark left in the squashed capacitor and the other healthy capacitor and compared it with the width of the extruded piece (11mm) and found that it missed the other capacitor by less than a hair width.

The new black board has the same layout of the three capacitors, @Inmotion Globalplease modify. All the components are too close to each other they need some safety margin.
I wouldn’t be surprised if other boards had this issue. It is good to check yours if you open your V12, because the wheel might function and appear is OK until it cutout on you suddenly.

[Paul g]

I tried to find this 220 25t capacitor, but seems to have a slightly different notation on it than western ones. Does anybody has any idea what type this is?

Edited August 7, 2022 by Paul g

[Tawpie]

15 minutes ago, Paul g said:

I tried to find this 220 25t

my guess is it's a 220 microfarad 25 volt (electrolytic). Total guess, but if you look those up you might find the marking code. The style of the can is more 'organic polymer', but appearances are immaterial.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Tawpie

[Paul g]

10 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

my guess is it's a 220 microfarad 25 volt (electrolytic). Total guess, but if you look those up you might find the marking code. The style of the can is more 'organic polymer', but appearances are immaterial.

Thanks for the tip.

The notation seems like is Japanese, similar to this one :

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/aluminium-capacitors/7568092p

[Paul g]

I’ve checked the new black driving board and noticed it also had overheated MOSFETs just like eco-drift found on the boards they received, with the metal part of the FET has wrinkles and pits. It doesn’t look as bad as the one showed as example by eco-drift, but for sure they choose the worst they had to make a point. I had three of them with these overheating marks.

 

[Mars Bless]

On 8/3/2022 at 7:05 AM, techyiam said:

You may be in luck. Inmotion is claiming that their up and coming V13 will not cutout for a rider weighing 170 lbs or less, and traveling at less than 60 mph. This should be the first of its kind.

Where did they say this???? 

The only thing I've seen close to this is in the Raptor video. "Provided you weigh under 170lbs and keep a speed of around 16mph, you can climb steep hills like the famous California street in San Francisco all day long without causing overheating" 

 

"A no cut-out experience is what we're striving for"

Just asking because I haven't heard that claim before. 

[techyiam]

10 minutes ago, Mars Bless said:

keep a speed of around 16mph

I didn't turn on CC. Now that I have gone back did so, it does appear it is indeed 16 and not 60.

Since, this is the the case, they were highlighting the effectiveness of the cooling system, rather than the safe top speed.

Nevertheless, the low speed high torque, and safe top speed cutout safe guards still stand. No other wheel come close.