Inmotion V13 Speculation

[houseofjob]

7 hours ago, dimos15 said:

(M50LT is the new version of M50T https://budgetlightforum.com/node/80928   the m50lt has less internal resistance, there are reviews on lygte and mooch)

Thanks. Really wish there was a standardized database of all this, not patchwork this reviewer and that.

 

7 hours ago, dimos15 said:

I think the $/wh comparison with the master pro is unfair. Gotway doesn't use pure nickel strips on their battery packs, the bms is dumb, the batteries are not potted..

Agree to disagree.

Yes I want all those things, but this is too high a premium for that, ~$4.5K USD for 3KWh. EUC has been going a long time without smart BMS, and largely battery issues have not been a huge problem for the wheel models that judiciously combined capable cells in capable pack configurations (this includes InMotions of past).

You're paying +$1.5K on top of the base calculation for what? Nickel strips that cost $15-20? Smart BMS, while yes is much better and desirable, but 100% charging has balanced many a dumb EUC pack in the past successfully. And note, GA's have long been the gold standard that maintained the $1/Wh mark, yet the 35Ev3's are notably cheaper than GA's, and this wheel is now $1.5/Wh?!?

So +$1.5K just for all that? No thanks, I'll just balance with 100% charging like I've done for many years now, zero issues, while not contributing to this ridiculous and unjustified EUC price inflation race to the first $10K USD wheel.

 

7 hours ago, dimos15 said:

Having a wheel with 4600wh is definitely exiting though.

Honestly, I'd rather not have 4600Wh pack, I'd rather have a smaller pack, lighter and cheaper wheel maintaining that $1/Wh mark (or an up-premium for higher amp cells, which I do justify the price increase for). We're getting into motorcycle territory, and the performance/range comps aren't that great when comparing EUC with motorcycles.

 

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

When you lay it out like that, it sounds as if Wh was the only measure in a wheel that's worth any money. I think of the value of an EUC very differently.

It's a good rough way to quantify things, not sure a different way to quantify wheel pricing. I'm all ears if you have a better method 

 

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Should, but aren't. Maybe that has skewed your $/Wh scale somewhat? If 1 $/Wh brings you the current design and manufacturing issues, and 1.5 $/Wh is required for them to be fixed at the factory, shouldn't 1.5 $/Wh then be the norm to compare others to?

More like, I nitpick the crap out of the $1/Wh model and don't FOMO buy it to avoid the factory fix, then keep doing that until a suitable enough wheel model appears 

 

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I'm not necessarily doubting your's, but so far every person I've heard saying that have been pretty heavily brand biased... 

I hate this "brand loyalty" with a passion, because there's no such justification to be loyal when you're dealing with Communist country copycat culture brands, they're all the same to me, just pick your poison, brand loyalty is a Western concept applicable to free market, properly-held-to-account Western companies, not applicable to under-the-table, price dumping Communist culture.

All EUC companies are both great for what they offer, and awful for their issues, all at the same time, I don't trust any of them because I've been both amazed and F'd by all of them at one point, InMotion is no exception (loved myV5F, and been thoroughly F'd by my V10F recall, rinse repeat next brand).

 

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Well, most riders don't have a sensible opportunity to buy directly from China.  They only deal with Western distributors, with Western buying culture. I'm certain that manufacturers are well aware of the different cultures, and that the prices we're given are calculated for Western distributors. 

There was a very suitable quote in the T4 thread, where a guy fully expects a $2400 100V suspension wheel to have lousy headlights and handle, unprotected batteries etc. The riders' expectations are based on what they have gotten previously with that amount of money. To me it sounded very sad, since in my world those things are very far from the standard.

Sure they do, all it takes is reaching out via WhatsApp / WeChat / AliExpress!

Albeit, you forgo a Western distributor helping you out with post-purchase after-service, so I understand the desire to go this route.

But my main issue is, in the West, you look at the price and just accept it, no questions asked, but the people selling the product, they're not Westerners, and Mainland culture is totally opposite to this thinking, you always throw at least a first initial haggle offer, and the seller quotes the initial price Expecting this haggle.

So you're right, the Mainland EUC mom & pop companies know this fact about the West, which has kicked off this unnecessary price inflation for features that should have been there in the first place, unless the Western customer gets smarter and doesn't just blindly take first initial pricing, and overall, accepting the Mainlander EUC company's poor standard status quo.

 

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Hence, my wallet has voted for "don't buy" for a year now, despite fully expecting to spend around 3-3.5K on a new wheel this year. But even I do experience the wannabuyism, and I've tried to talk myself into a few of the new wheels. But they'd be downgrades for me, so I just can't justify getting one.

Sadly, this has been my conclusion for a bit now as well. 

I love new wheel any-time-of-the-year-is-Christmas, as much as the next rider, but I've had way too many wheel memories of models where I realized afterward that I fell for the marketing hype, and the wheel did not justify keeping because it was inferior to my existing rotation of wheels.

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by houseofjob

[houseofjob]

2 hours ago, HEC said:

And in this aspect I believe Inmotion still leads, despite several recent setbacks. And us, customers need to push for safety as well, not only for massive batteries or huge speeds.

Yes, pushing for safety is assumed.

But I've seen just as many head-scratching InMotion issues, even after "we engineer for safety" new wheel marketing hype, as much as any of the other brands, that years of this has had me adopt an I-believe-it-when-I-see-it attitude, and that skepticism gets reset with every brand, every new wheel model, rinse repeat.

[HEC]

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

Yes, pushing for safety is assumed.

But I've seen just as many head-scratching InMotion issues, even after "we engineer for safety" new wheel marketing hype, as much as any of the other brands, that years of this has had me adopt an I-believe-it-when-I-see-it attitude, and that skepticism gets reset with every brand, every new wheel model, rinse repeat.

Yes, sadly the "safety" became more of marketing gimmick in the EUC / PEV space lately (or even ironic joke when speaking of "toys" riding at speeds of twice the city speed limits), similarly to "eco" or "bio" products, which are basically just marketing tropes for majority of manufacturers and producers now.

And we'll see how will Inmotion tackle all the recent hurdles. As many other here I wish for V13 to avoid any major (and preferrably even minor) issues of the bat, to restore faith in the company as well as in the actual possibility of high performance and yet considerably safe EUC.

Now, the question is how the market will react, with V13 being basically double the price of V12, plus the dual cooling fans might be concern for some, both due to the noise as well as possible failures (hopefully controller board is mart enough to detect and report faulty fans). I don't really have any representative numbers to see the actual distribution of various types of EUC, but based on limited circle of regular EUC riders I'm in touch with, most use the EUC to commute, either fully or as last mile component, and I can't see V13 being primarily used for this purpose. So we might end up with great wheel, which only tiny portion of EUC riders would want (or can afford) to buy. Will then Inmotion filter down some of the innovations and safety features down to their main staple wheels like V8 or V10? Hopefully yes.

[houseofjob]

22 minutes ago, HEC said:

Yes, sadly the "safety" became more of marketing gimmick in the EUC / PEV space lately (or even ironic joke when speaking of "toys" riding at speeds of twice the city speed limits), similarly to "eco" or "bio" products, which are basically just marketing tropes for majority of manufacturers and producers now.

And we'll see how will Inmotion tackle all the recent hurdles. As many other here I wish for V13 to avoid any major (and preferrably even minor) issues of the bat, to restore faith in the company as well as in the actual possibility of high performance and yet considerably safe EUC.

Now, the question is how the market will react, with V13 being basically double the price of V12, plus the dual cooling fans might be concern for some, both due to the noise as well as possible failures (hopefully controller board is mart enough to detect and report faulty fans). I don't really have any representative numbers to see the actual distribution of various types of EUC, but based on limited circle of regular EUC riders I'm in touch with, most use the EUC to commute, either fully or as last mile component, and I can't see V13 being primarily used for this purpose. So we might end up with great wheel, which only tiny portion of EUC riders would want (or can afford) to buy. Will then Inmotion filter down some of the innovations and safety features down to their main staple wheels like V8 or V10? Hopefully yes.

I admire and appreciate your positivity.

I also have no damn clue how you maintain such positivity and hope after the same amount of years in EUC 

[HEC]

2 hours ago, houseofjob said:

I admire and appreciate your positivity.

I also have no damn clue how you maintain such positivity and hope after the same amount of years in EUC 

Well, I'm a hopeless optimist 😌

And I know we still have massive hurdles ahead of us, as the EUC community, mainly on the legislative front, where EUCs as well as other PEVs, are in grey area at best, with being outright illegal at worst. That's also why I really think the safety (together with educating newcomers) should be top priority, because all it takes is one EUC related massive injury (or god forbid even dead) splashed all over the media and we can see our door to legalisation slammed into our faces instantly.

[houseofjob]

32 minutes ago, HEC said:

Well, I'm a hopeless optimist 😌

And I know we still have massive hurdles ahead of us, as the EUC community, mainly on the legislative front, where EUCs as well as other PEVs, are in grey area at best, with being outright illegal at worst. That's also why I really think the safety (together with educating newcomers) should be top priority, because all it takes is one EUC related massive injury (or god forbid even dead) splashed all over the media and we can see our door to legalisation slammed into our faces instantly.

I always say this, but EUC isn't even a blip on the radar, good or bad news, for most country mass public (mainly talking about the good 'ol US of A myself).

The sensational EUC fire + etc incidents have already happened plenty of times over the half decade, and no one remembers them, in the noise of, say, war in Ukraine, Mainland China blustering, Republicans & Democrats fighting (or insert your country politics here), general economic inflation, etc. It's not even the 5th, 6th, 7th.....  most important news of the night for the general public, we would need the ridership of ebikes and scooter riders to be elevated to that, but they will always outnumber us, so any talk of legislation, we are always grouped in with them and at that narrative's mercy.

The only people who care that much about EUC legality are the people on this forum, law enforcement in places/countries that don't have a lot going on, and the elderly richer city/town folk that have nothing better to do than complain about anything and everything to keep their status quo and property values up.

Edited August 21, 2022 by houseofjob

[mrelwood]

 

5 hours ago, houseofjob said:

GA's have long been the gold standard that maintained the $1/Wh mark, yet the 35Ev3's are notably cheaper than GA's, and this wheel is now $1.5/Wh?!?

Sanyo 18650GA can be purchased for 0.38 €/KW in Europe. Why isn't that your "base calculation"? Because we are not purchasing battery. We are purchasing a wheel. And a 3600Wh wheel isn't twice as expensive to manufacture than a 1800Wh wheel.

5 hours ago, houseofjob said:

It's a good rough way to quantify things, not sure a different way to quantify wheel pricing. I'm all ears if you have a better method 

It isn't a good way. Current Ewheels $/KW pricing, highest to lowest:

• Hero: 2.27
• Mten3: 2.13 / 1.55
• S18: 2.07
• T4: 1.70
• RS: 1.67
• Nikola+: 1.57
• V11: 1.53
• S22: 1.44
• V12 HT: 1.4
• Master: 1.35 / 1.69
• 16X: 1.34
• V13: 1.33 / 1.5
• V12 HS: 1.31
• EX.N: 1.11
• Sherman Max: 1.06

Conclusion: Average of the above list is 1.67 $/KW. 1 $/KW is a pipe dream, and the V13 is definitely not the one to complain about.

A honest question: How do you quantify car pricing? What costs are new tech and quality, nothing related to any single measure. Add tongue-in-cheek: The equivalent of battery capacity would be... gas tank size?

I don't have a suggestion to replace your $/KW with, since I don't believe that the prices can be quantified or compared in the way you might wish to do. We're not purchasing a battery, we're purchasing a vehicle that has cost in features as well as engineering and manufacturing quality. How you should quantify the prices is how valuable each feature is to you.

An example: Sherman/Master Pro battery size is wholly meaningless to me, so it wouldn't make any sense for me to pay for it. A light weight would have an enormous value to me, so I would pay for that.

Actually, even $/kg might be a better representation of the current EUC pricing...

 

5 hours ago, houseofjob said:

I hate this "brand loyalty" with a passion, because there's no such justification to be loyal when you're dealing with Communist country copycat culture brands, they're all the same to me

There are repeating traits that each brand follows. Here's a few:

• Inmotions are narrow and ergonomic with an exceptionally wide range of ride mode adjustments, and they have a feeling of physical quality to them.
• Gotways are powerful and fast, ride modes behave in a certain manner, can be freely ridden past the top speed, designs have several gotchas, they don't handle crashes well, shells crack even without a crash, and headlights blinds others.
• Kingsongs beep like crazy every now and then, recent models strongly follow form-over-funcion, suspension mechanism is badly designed or manufactured.

If some of the above traits are the focus of your love or hate, it stands to reason to have an elevated interest towards one of the brands.

 

5 hours ago, houseofjob said:

I don't trust any of them because I've been both amazed and F'd by all of them at one point,

Personal experience is what we all go by, but it has it's problems. Every single wheel model has lemons that require warranty service. If you happen to get one, the brand image gets a big hit, no matter how low the total number of warranty cases is. Luckily a lot of info and experiences can be found at this forum, from which you can choose which issues and risks are the ones you could live with, and which aren't. Like you said:

5 hours ago, houseofjob said:

just pick your poison

For example, GW battery fires is a risk that many riders are not ready to take. It only concerns one model of their battery packs, but it does tell us something about the irrational design quality, which can raise it's head here and there. And some have doubts about the general IM engineering since the original V12 mosfets were not over spec'd enough. And so on.

For me personally, the V11 is the only wheel I've had to use the warranty with, yet it's easily the favourite of all my wheels, and has raised the standard of what I require from my wheels. For me the pluses far outweigh the minuses. Not so with the MSX.

 

5 hours ago, houseofjob said:

But my main issue is, in the West, you look at the price and just accept it, no questions asked, but the people selling the product, they're not Westerners, and Mainland culture is totally opposite to this thinking

I have only recently found out how flexible the Aliexpress prices can be. You're absolutely right in that with our experiences with physical shops, Ebay, Amazon etc we expect the prices to be what they are. The fact that Aliexpress pricing doesn't follow this trait is alien to us. But I'm confident that most riders still purchase their wheels from western shops, where the prices simply are much more fixed.

5 hours ago, houseofjob said:

unless the Western customer gets smarter and doesn't just blindly take first initial pricing

Again, only applies if you purchase directly from China.

[HEC]

Speaking of news, look who (or better say what) made it to the "news":

Although she calls the EUC incorrectly one wheel ... I'd like to see her to test it 🧐

[houseofjob]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Sanyo 18650GA can be purchased for 0.38 €/KW in Europe. Why isn't that your "base calculation"? Because we are not purchasing battery. We are purchasing a wheel. And a 3600Wh wheel isn't twice as expensive to manufacture than a 1800Wh wheel.

It's a rough guide, not a hard or perfect rule, I admittedly wasn't clear enough on this on my previous posts. I don't expect it to be exactly $1/Wh all the time, but the closer it gets to $1.5/Wh or breaks well above, I'm gonna be expecting some damn extra magic sauce, like better high amp fire cells, or maybe the wheel flies and cooks me dinner, not it added some not-expensive-to-implement nickel strips, or Smart BMS, etc.

 

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

It isn't a good way. Current Ewheels $/KW pricing, highest to lowest:

• Hero: 2.27
• Mten3: 2.13 / 1.55
• S18: 2.07
• T4: 1.70
• RS: 1.67
• Nikola+: 1.57
• V11: 1.53
• S22: 1.44
• V12 HT: 1.4
• Master: 1.35 / 1.69
• 16X: 1.34
• V13: 1.33 / 1.5
• V12 HS: 1.31
• EX.N: 1.11
• Sherman Max: 1.06

Conclusion: Average of the above list is 1.67 $/KW. 1 $/KW is a pipe dream, and the V13 is definitely not the one to complain about.

• EWheels Hero is 40T's 40A High Amp fire and part of the "suspension premium", not a regular non-suspension High Capacity wheel, totally not my argument, I'm fine with paying more for higher amp fire for less voltage sag, which 35Ev3 "8A" max on the V13 certainly is not. 
• MTen3 is a bit of a specialty wheel with no other competitor in that size. It's a little overpriced, but I'm more ok with that price premium given the lack of other models in this category.
• EWheels S18 is P42A 45A max High Amp and suspension premium, again, not my non-suspension premium High Capacity $1/Wh argument.
• EWheels T4 is 40T 40A max High Amp and suspension premium, again, not my non-suspension premium High Capacity $1/Wh argument.
• EWheels RS is P42A 45A max High Amp, again, not my High Capacity $1/Wh argument.
• EWheels Nikola+ is P42A 45A max High Amp, again, not my High Capacity $1/Wh argument.
• EWheels V11 is LG M50T, I wouldn't pay a Lincoln penny for that cell in any wheel, now that there's yet again, another reported fire involving these cells.
• If the S22 is still LG M50T or LT, same, I wouldn't pay a cent for that in any wheel.

The rest hold closer and acceptably in-line to $1/Wh, as I should have said, it's a guide, not a hard rule. The idea is to not inflate far away from this guide, for no significantly compelling reason.

 

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

A honest question: How do you quantify car pricing? What costs are new tech and quality, nothing related to any single measure. Add tongue-in-cheek: The equivalent of battery capacity would be... gas tank size?

I don't have a suggestion to replace your $/KW with, since I don't believe that the prices can be quantified or compared in the way you might wish to do. We're not purchasing a battery, we're purchasing a vehicle that has cost in features as well as engineering and manufacturing quality. How you should quantify the prices is how valuable each feature is to you.

An example: Sherman/Master Pro battery size is wholly meaningless to me, so it wouldn't make any sense for me to pay for it. A light weight would have an enormous value to me, so I would pay for that.

Actually, even $/kg might be a better representation of the current EUC pricing...

I'm sorry, all due respect, but this is nonsensical to me then.

You buy an EUC for some amount of set money. If you have no numerical guide to quantify (no matter how flawed), well then, hell, they can say this V13 is sooo great and innovative, it should cost $6K! Next year's model so much better, shell out $8K! I'm sure this is how the OneWheelers justify paying $2.5K for so so little comparative performance, cause their Float Life is soooo worth it!

Soon, we'll have inflated and gotten overvalued into the motorcycle price territory, where you get much better performance to money value; I can't ride straight from NYC to Florida in my EUC of same overinflated $10K value, unless it's actual giving me the same quantifiable $10k value that the Moto is. 

Anyone with a $6.3K Hollyburn P5 that goes 37mph with 28 mile range wanna chime in here? 

 

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Personal experience is what we all go by, but it has it's problems. Every single wheel model has lemons that require warranty service. If you happen to get one, the brand image gets a big hit, no matter how low the total number of warranty cases is. Luckily a lot of info and experiences can be found at this forum, from which you can choose which issues and risks are the ones you could live with, and which aren't. Like you said:

This is more than personal experience, which of course counts. I save every Facebook "my wheel cutout" or "my wheel caught fire" post, and tallying all that, no brand has a squeaky clean immaculate record, this is how I've come to my conclusion that none of the brands are "the perfect safety brand in the world!" like so many would lead ppl to believe on these forums.

 

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I have only recently found out how flexible the Aliexpress prices can be. You're absolutely right in that with our experiences with physical shops, Ebay, Amazon etc we expect the prices to be what they are. The fact that Aliexpress pricing doesn't follow this trait is alien to us. But I'm confident that most riders still purchase their wheels from western shops, where the prices simply are much more fixed.

Those "fixed" prices, you'd be surprised how not fixed they are sometimes, when you just ask in an email, just actually trying 

 

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Again, only applies if you purchase directly from China.

Sorry, nonsensical to me again. You vote with your dollars, or lack of forking them over, which you seem to know and have done as well. And again, I've seen dealers/makers reneg on their initial stated prices, you don't think they wanted those profit implications on that higher price? They didn't drop that price for no reason whatsoever.

Too many EUC buyers, especially the newer ones, just fork over any amount of their dough at whatever overpricing initial ask, just because, just to buy a new wheel, zero sense of wheel valuation (and I count myself as a year 1-3 newbie right in there with them *smh).

"New" wheel does not equal "better" wheel. 

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by houseofjob

[dimos15]

22 hours ago, houseofjob said:

You're paying +$1.5K on top of the base calculation for what? Nickel strips that cost $15-20? Smart BMS, while yes is much better and desirable, but 100% charging has balanced many a dumb EUC pack in the past successfully. And note, GA's have long been the gold standard that maintained the $1/Wh mark, yet the 35Ev3's are notably cheaper than GA's, and this wheel is now $1.5/Wh?!?

You are paying more for battery packs that don't spontaneously burst into flames

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/29708-immediate-gotwaybegode-msp-nikola-rs-battery-pack-fire-hazard-disposal-notice-ewheels-customers/

Edited August 21, 2022 by dimos15

[mrelwood]

 

14 hours ago, houseofjob said:

• EWheels Hero is 40T's 40A High Amp fire and part of the "suspension premium", not a regular non-suspension High Capacity wheel, totally not my argument
• ...

I'm not following. So the guideline only applies to a certain category of wheels now? I showed you 15 of possibly the most popular wheels from the largest distributor in (one of?) the largest EUC countries in the world, and now more than half of them don't apply for some reason? I guess this is one of those guidelines that don't necessarily maker much sense to others.

 

14 hours ago, houseofjob said:

hell, they can say this V13 is sooo great and innovative, it should cost $6K!

Isn't that what marketing and advertising is all about? To make you think that you're getting a better deal than you actually are?

But all this has nothing to do with actual good design and build quality having monetary value.

14 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Next year's model so much better, shell out $8K!

And customers do that. And since they still sell, the manufacturers will keep feeding them what they want.

But I still don't see how you've come up with 1 $/kW, since it's so far from the average EUC? And why $/kw, why not $/kg? Or $/mph? Or $/Nm?

 

14 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Soon, we'll have inflated and gotten overvalued into the motorcycle price territory, where you get much better performance to money value;

And how did your 1 $/kW guideline prevent that from happening?

You know, exaggerating widened EUC markets or even a natural price increase into a doomsday prediction because it doesn't follow your imaginary guideline that isn't reasonable even today, doesn't sound like something that others should be much concerned about. In my opinion.

 

14 hours ago, houseofjob said:

none of the brands are "the perfect safety brand in the world!" like so many would lead ppl to believe on these forums.

Some may think that, but I haven't seen it being posted much at all. If one has been reading the forums for a  but longer, it's been pretty darn clear that every single manufacturer has their issues and risks. If not, others tend to  politely explain to them how things truly are.

But I see that as a separate thing to being brand loyal, fanboy, or just preferring a brand. The positive features I typed on the previous post still apply. If someone hates riding a wide wheel to the bone and wants it to be as narrow as possible, they will most probably largely prefer Inmotion. And if the feature is that important to them, the few wheels that match their requirement, are worth more to them than they would otherwise be. Regardless of any fixed $/kW, or any other metric, or what the advertisements say.

[That Guy]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

16 hours ago, houseofjob said:

hell, they can say this V13 is sooo great and innovative, it should cost $6K!

Isn't that what marketing and advertising is all about? To make you think that you're getting a better deal than you actually are?

But all this has nothing to do with actual good design and build quality having monetary value.

Exactly. All those great features and safety considerations may be so simply ruined by sluggish acceleration or compromised maneuverability. 

The price can only reflect the demand, not the idea. If I were in InMotion's I would even strongly consider reducing the price closer to $3k and then gradually increasing if the demand proven stable. (From all the EUC makers they can afford this.)

Edited August 21, 2022 by That Guy

[techyiam]

E-bikes have the economies of scale advantage over euc's, yet you can't find an e-bike that has a rated 4.5 kW motor (10 kW peak), and 3025 Wh battery for $4000.

[That Guy]

2 minutes ago, techyiam said:

E-bikes have the economies of scale advantage over euc's, yet you can't find an e-bike that has a rated 4.5 kW motor (10 kW peak), and 3025 Wh battery for $4000.

Ha! That's exactly my point - demand for e-bikes is hundreds of times higher than for EUC, we are still a very small community world-wide.

The only way to increase the profit from selling EUC's is to make the product prevailing on the market. Pricing V13 at say, $6-10k would make it an InMotion own's museum item. Pricing they have chosen for it now still sort of makes sense for their targeted audience but it comes with the risk of an epic failure if the thing doesn't ride better (much better) than, say, Sherman Max. Yet another brave option would be pricing it aggressively lower, which would be a very strong move of attracting buyers from Begode's and Veteran's camps and potentially sweetening a failure if it has to occur ("at least I haven't paid too much for it").

[techyiam]

26 minutes ago, That Guy said:

Ha! That's exactly my point - demand for e-bikes is hundreds of times higher than for EUC, we are still a very small community world-wide.

The only way to increase the profit from selling EUC's is to make the product prevailing on the market. Pricing V13 at say, $6-10k would make it an InMotion own's museum item. Pricing they have chosen for it now still sort of makes sense for their targeted audience but it comes with the risk of an epic failure if the thing doesn't ride better (much better) than, say, Sherman Max. Yet another brave option would be pricing it aggressively lower, which would be a very strong move of attracting buyers from Begode's and Veteran's camps and potentially sweetening a failure if it has to occur ("at least I haven't paid too much for it").

Euc is still a niche market compared to e-bikes. It could be for a very time, or even forever. One reason for this is the steep learning curve for the average non-rider. Another is many non-riders thinks euc's are too dangerous to ride. The third reason is the governments have not been favorable to euc's.

Euc's already have a better price to performance ratio than e-bikes. Yet, here we are. Moreover. flagship wheels don't bring in new riders.

Furthermore, Sherman's success was not based on low price and status quo. Leaper Kim took a big risk, and ventured into the unknown.

Edited August 21, 2022 by techyiam

[houseofjob]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I'm not following. So the guideline only applies to a certain category of wheels now? I showed you 15 of possibly the most popular wheels from the largest distributor in (one of?) the largest EUC countries in the world, and now more than half of them don't apply for some reason? I guess this is one of those guidelines that don't necessarily maker much sense to others.

Read my original argument. One of the main basis is on the choice of 35E 8A cells vs the comparative $/Wh cost, 35E's are max capacity cells, not high amp specialty cells which cost more and inherently have lesser capacity (again, higher amp premium does make sense to me, but we ain't getting such a thing with the V13's 35E's).

I can't make it any clearer than this.

 

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Isn't that what marketing and advertising is all about? To make you think that you're getting a better deal than you actually are?

But all this has nothing to do with actual good design and build quality having monetary value.

That's my point: to cut through the marketing hype with real numbers and real valuation, not just hypotheticals, cuz, these wheels ain't free, we use cash money numbers to purchase them 

 

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

But I still don't see how you've come up with 1 $/kW, since it's so far from the average EUC? And why $/kw, why not $/kg? Or $/mph? Or $/Nm?

I dunno where you're getting $1/kW, look at all my posts: it's $1/Wh.

$1/WH is an old EUC forum guide metric I believe that actually Jason mentioned back around WheelGo days before your time on these forums, something that was better than having no guide metric.

The battery is one of the actual main highest production cost components, hence $1/Wh guide. I don't get how any of those other numbers you mention would make more sense than this. 

And it's not that far off, as I told you, I rule out use of high amp capacity and ridiculous suspension price premiums on your eWheels list, reason explained, and the remaining wheel pricing you mentioned range in $1.1-1.3/Wh

 

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

And how did your 1 $/kW guideline prevent that from happening?

You know, exaggerating widened EUC markets or even a natural price increase into a doomsday prediction because it doesn't follow your imaginary guideline that isn't reasonable even today, doesn't sound like something that others should be much concerned about. In my opinion.

Uh, isn't that the point of my rants? It's not happening.

 

And that's right, just because my opinions don't fall in-line with yours or most, I basically shouldn't express an original dissenting opinion, right?  

Maybe I should just puppet all the hype lovefest that goes on with all these new XX company wheel model threads? *vomits in mouth*

V13 is the best! *Hsiang voice*

 

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Some may think that, but I haven't seen it being posted much at all. If one has been reading the forums for a  but longer, it's been pretty darn clear that every single manufacturer has their issues and risks. If not, others tend to  politely explain to them how things truly are.

But I see that as a separate thing to being brand loyal, fanboy, or just preferring a brand. The positive features I typed on the previous post still apply. If someone hates riding a wide wheel to the bone and wants it to be as narrow as possible, they will most probably largely prefer Inmotion. And if the feature is that important to them, the few wheels that match their requirement, are worth more to them than they would otherwise be. Regardless of any fixed $/kW, or any other metric, or what the advertisements say.

Brand fanboys, whatever you wanna call them, they leave stuff out to align with their own brand biases and narrative, only bringing up the other X competitor brand's faults, then shy away from mentioning or shining attention to the faults of their own favored brand.

 

I hate all of that, I am an equal opportunity hater (and compliment-er when merited) of any and all brands. I've owned one from them all as proof.

 

But I guess this is not the times we are living in, this thread must only be pro-InMotion!, absolutely zero criticisms! 

 

I think I get it now, please give me my forum ban, Moderator comrade!

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by houseofjob

[Hsiang]

oh god @houseofjob you should be making videos and stickers instead of writing volumes on EUC pricing structure arguing for some dead metrics that nobody cares about.. LOL

Also as much as you want it to, that's not how pricing structure works, people offering goods and services can simply charge as high of a price as market will bear. And unfortunately electric unicycle is getting gentrified just like your favorite hidden gem artist neighborhood and the new hobbyist with money are moving in and pricing the old school euc riders out!

oh, and there's also that 25% import tariff that didn't exist before; either the expectation are that the dealer eat a 25% hit on their already slim profit margin, or the price is simply what it is.

[Yamanator]

48 minutes ago, Hsiang said:

oh god @houseofjob you should be making videos and stickers instead of writing volumes on EUC pricing structure arguing for some dead metrics that nobody cares about.. LOL

Also as much as you want it to, that's not how pricing structure works, people offering goods and services can simply charge as high of a price as market will bear. And unfortunately electric unicycle is getting gentrified just like your favorite hidden gem artist neighborhood and the new hobbyist with money are moving in and pricing the old school euc riders out!

oh, and there's also that 25% import tariff that didn't exist before; either the expectation are that the dealer eat a 25% hit on their already slim profit margin, or the price is simply what it is.

Somehow you tricked him into thinking about you on a euc forum. But that is what the comment section below is for. 

Roll the intro!

Love the vids

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Hsiang said:

And unfortunately electric unicycle is getting gentrified just like your favorite hidden gem artist neighborhood and the new hobbyist with money are moving in and pricing the old school euc riders out!

You mean riders like @FrenchUsa who preordered the Sherman Max, the Hero, and the S20/S22 in one go? I don't know what is going on at EEVEES, but apparently all the Master Pro are sold out. And that is currently the most expensive euc.

You may have a point.

Edited August 22, 2022 by techyiam

[houseofjob]

1 hour ago, Hsiang said:

oh god @houseofjob you should be making videos and stickers instead of writing volumes on EUC pricing structure arguing for some dead metrics that nobody cares about.. LOL

If you actually paid your own money to buy your wheels, your words would carry more weight to me 

 

1 hour ago, Hsiang said:

Also as much as you want it to, that's not how pricing structure works, people offering goods and services can simply charge as high of a price as market will bear. And unfortunately electric unicycle is getting gentrified just like your favorite hidden gem artist neighborhood and the new hobbyist with money are moving in and pricing the old school euc riders out!

oh, and there's also that 25% import tariff that didn't exist before; either the expectation are that the dealer eat a 25% hit on their already slim profit margin, or the price is simply what it is.

This is actually a much better point than many have countered me here on, but the crappy shell MisterMister Plow pricing doesn't fit this theory.

BTW, how are you up this late gramps? 

Edited August 22, 2022 by houseofjob

[onizukagto]

Getting back on topic... 

 

Saw this pop up in my feed:

 

https://interestingengineering.com/transportation/fastest-unicycle-surpass-87-mph

guess even the none-pev media is picking up on this.  Haha. 

 

[mrelwood]

 

13 hours ago, houseofjob said:

I can't make it any clearer than this.

Like i said, that makes perfect sense if you’re buying a battery. We’re not talking about buying a battery here. We’re talking about buying a vehicle, of which battery is just one part. And to others than you the value of the other parts matter as well.

13 hours ago, houseofjob said:

That's my point: to cut through the marketing hype with real numbers and real valuation

Maybe you are a bit too eager trying to place the wheels on a single two-dimensional scale, when in reality each customer has and should have their own scale based on their requirements and wishes?

 

13 hours ago, houseofjob said:

I dunno where you're getting $1/kW, look at all my posts: it's $1/Wh.

Sorry, $/kW would’ve just made more sense...

13 hours ago, houseofjob said:

$1/WH is an old EUC forum guide metric I believe that actually Jason mentioned back around WheelGo days before your time on these forums, something that was better than having no guide metric.

As you’ve been shown though, it doesn’t really apply anymore. At least not without excluding half of the wheels from the scale, which makes the scale even more pointless.

13 hours ago, houseofjob said:

The battery is one of the actual main highest production cost components, hence $1/Wh guide.

Yes. ONE of them.

 

13 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Uh, isn't that the point of my rants? It's not happening.

If it's not happening, why rant about it then?

13 hours ago, houseofjob said:

just because my opinions don't fall in-line with yours or most, I basically shouldn't express an original dissenting opinion, right? 

Maybe I should just puppet all the hype lovefest that goes on with all these new XX company wheel model threads? *vomits in mouth*

V13 is the best! *Hsiang voice*

And now you turn into a martyr. You presented a scale, we told you why it doesn't work. All cool. Maybe consider the points that were made against your scale instead of trying to turn it into a fight?

 

13 hours ago, houseofjob said:

I hate all of that, I am an equal opportunity hater (and compliment-er when merited) of any and all brands. I've owned one from them all as proof.

By that theory, so am I. Except for Veteran, which I practically never talk about for that exact reason.

13 hours ago, houseofjob said:

But I guess this is not the times we are living in, this thread must only be pro-InMotion!, absolutely zero criticisms!

I hate to be blunt, but dude, grow up. I'm not interested in bidgering at this level.

[jimjam.nyc]

Oh gosh how quickly things get off the rails here.. So many experts.. Too Little time! :-)

And i thought i was weird for simply just enjoying riding these things. 

 

 

 

 

 

[squirrel]

Really excited for this wheel. I wish Inmotion produced things with a little more urgency, it's painful watching Begode announcing and shipping several wheels since this announcement :/

[Wraith Rider]

On 8/17/2022 at 1:41 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

QThe Begode batteries are completely different from the few ones that had fire problems. Different cells, different voltages and different BMSes, more safety measures. Also, the 18650 Gotway batteries of old were the best ones available, so it's not like they have a history of battery issues compared to others (there also were V10 and V11 fires, for example).

I think worrying about Begode batteries is unjustified.

But of course there is "totally completely good" (Begode) and "next level" on the V13, so maybe you guys just want the extra quality and peace of mind? Personally, Begode batteries certainly would not stop me from choosing one of their wheels.

I'd say the V13 is nice enough as it is, no extra justification needed

Actually I have to disagree on the batteries.  GW/Begode have had a history of more fires than any other company by far.  Through out their history, every time they have had an issue with the wheel, albeit boards, mosfets, wires, connectors, screws, panels, batteries. bms etc etc, they have only after the fact fixed it just enough to work for that model.  Rinse wash repeat.  Why do you think its still talked about all these years later?  Its like saying its not justified to worry about QC on their wheels.  But then again who cares, they don't buy it for safety or QC, GW/Begode buyers buy for pure performance period.