eWheels Tucson Service Center Fire, Site Destroyed

[StefanBRO]

I just looked into the Chevy Bolt recall... The issue seems to be "a torn anode tab and folded separator" with some of the batteries. If the bolt is using the same 21700 cells as we are this could be pretty bad. The recall seems to go back to 2017 so I'm not quite sure what to think.

[RagingGrandpa]

18 minutes ago, StefanBRO said:

If the bolt is using the same 21700 cells

It's not.

  

On 9/20/2021 at 5:11 PM, RagingGrandpa said:

let's not make mountains out of molehills...

Bolt EV uses LG flat cells in a 60,000wh assembly.
Monster Pro uses LG cylinder cells in a 3,552wh assembly.
They have very little in common aside from the chemical concept, which is the same as all other top-quality NMC cell manufacturers use (Samsung, Pana/Sanyo, etc).

All Lithium-Cobalt batteries are risky.

[GothamMike]

1 hour ago, RagingGrandpa said:

It's not.

  

Hyundai Kona?

LG Chem has problems with their batteries.

[RagingGrandpa]

First: I have no professional or personal relationship with any cell manufacturer...

  

51 minutes ago, GothamMike said:

Hyundai Kona?

Nope.

Similar to Bolt, those are flat cells; not 21700.

 

51 minutes ago, GothamMike said:

LG Chem has problems with their batteries.

All NMC cells are risky!

But we shouldn't generalize based on corporation name alone... each cell model is different. Some turn out great; others not so much.

The entire industry is eager for a higher-density, safer alternative to NMC.
In the meantime, let's manage risks according to the available information.
As an example, here's my approach to the problem:

Pana/Sanyo 18650GA has a great track record for EUC use. I own 160 of these, stored in my house without protection, but with methods to remove them from my home prepared and ready.
LG 18650HE4 also a good track record. I own 200 of these, again stored rather carefree.
LG 21700M50T may have on the order of 10ppm dangerous internal defects, according to their record in EUC use. (e.g.: less than 1 fire per 1,000 such EUC's.) I own 96 of these cells, stored in a steel cabinet in my garage.

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by RagingGrandpa

[Planemo]

13 hours ago, Flying W said:

I would have rather had two 800wh 18650 packs in my RS. I think a 6p setup would do better on voltage drop, not stressing the cells as much. Accelerate hard at full charge you can drop into the 60s percentage wise.

I do think that going 4P with the cells they used on such a high performance wheel was a bad move, despite the claims that in theory the 21700's should be about the same in terms of a 6P 18650 setup. And as I agreed with you earlier, I do think that hard use will have been a catalyst for *some* GW fires but lets not lose focus on the fact that theres been fires even with brand new wheels. This is what we need to focus on right now simply because it makes identifying the cause a lot easier than making judgements/guesses on how someone has treated their wheel/how they are charging it/how low it's been discharged etc etc.

Ultimately, if theres a common denominator found on a new wheel/s with a certain pack/s I know for sure I wouldn't want a used one anywhere near me, let alone a new one.

I just hope that the investigation into the ewheels fire brings up at least something, although I don't hold out much hope, identifying the cause of a large catastrophic fire is difficult at the best of times.

13 hours ago, Flying W said:

PS If foul play if found to be involved I think we're all allowed to grab out pitch forks! 

Oh I agree 100%. Same if it's found to be an EUC pack.

[Mango]

A Gotway MSP HT burned down somebody’s house yesterday in Sweden. Apparently the second MSP HT in a month to catch fire.

I don’t follow Gotway products too closely because I think they are junk wheels, but what packs are in these MSPs? Is it possible we’ll be seeing more fire incidents as these packs age and become a higher fire risk. Statistically, these packs will burn up, not if but when.

[Paul A]

https://eucsale.com/euc-transport/begode/msp-msuper-pro-100v-1800wh.html

 

Description

Gotway MSuper PRO 100v (LG N50T 21700cells).

Batt 1800Wh

[winterwheel]

2 hours ago, Mango said:

A Gotway MSP HT burned down somebody’s house yesterday in Sweden. Apparently the second MSP HT in a month to catch fire.

...

Is there a news story or something associated with this.

[Paul A]

Maybe try EUC Sweden Facebook group.

[winterwheel]

Nothing relevant there I could find. Hopefully @Mango can let us know where to look.

Edited November 4, 2021 by winterwheel
spelling

[Paul A]

 

[StefanBRO]

Now I have to say I'm a bit scared to own my Tesla v3... Before buying it I noticed on the spec sheet it lists 2 different battery brands. LG or Samsung 21700s. I don't know if that is because of supply reasons or if Gotway knew about an issue with the LG cells and was working on moving to Samsung. The Samsungs appear to be good up to 15A, twice as much as the LGs! If this issue is really caused by the cells themselves or just poor pack assembly and design, it worries me either way. Sucks because I'm about 800 miles into the hobby and I don't want to burn down my wood frame house lol. However, my wheel seems to be using 2 750Wh packs so idk. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by StefanBRO

[Paul A]

Think it is printed on the side of the battery casing.

[StefanBRO]

1 hour ago, Paul A said:

Think it is printed on the side of the battery casing.

That may be, I just don't want to open my wheel till its time to do a tire change or bearing maintenance. Out of sight, out of mind right? Although curiosity may get the better of me. 

[level9]

I had received an email from eWheels a while ago about my delayed Begode Mten3 order:

Here's a quick update on your MTen3 orders: we have an order in for a couple hundred of these machines, but have decided to select a professional battery pack provider that offers improved safety capabilities—short circuit protection, temperature sensors, improved nickel interconnects, etc.

 

So, presumably, Begode wheels are missing some degree of short circuit and overheating protection and the interconnect quality may be substandard. This is one of the reasons I've avoided their wheels from all the fire related reports I've seen around the internet. So, it wouldn't surprise me if a Begode product was in some way responsible for the fire. This is also one of the reasons I like eWheels as they look out for their customers. I'm hoping they bounce back fast!

 

 

 

[Paul A]

There is a nine page thread, started on May 30,2020.

Titled: "[WARNING] Gotway Nikola 100v 1800WH Battery Fire"

It seems to show the Gotway fire that prompted eWheels to commence a battery recall/replacement program, notifying affected customers, contracting third party battery assembly, other safety improvements etc..

 

 

Copy and paste of eWheels correspondence.

Quote

Good evening,

 

We received notice from one of our Customers that an 100v Nikola 1800Wh with Panasonic 21700 cells recently caught fire. 

 

Here is what we know so far:

• A Nikola+ 1800Wh from the first batch to use Panasonic 21700 cells caught fire a few minutes after powering on
• It was reported this wheel had not sustained damage due to an accident, nor had it undergone modifications or repairs
• The owner reports that they routinely only charged to 90% at 3A.
• Fortunately, the fire occurred in an empty outdoor parking lot, and no one or property was harmed 

If you are receiving this email, you purchased a Nikola+ 1800Wh that contains 21700 cells of the same origin as those involved in this incident.

 

Even though this was a single isolated incident, within a six month time frame, the safety of our Customers is our highest priority, and will be carrying out a targeted recall of the battery packs in this production run. These Nikola+ 1800Wh/100V were shipped to Customers between December 19th, 2019 to April 16th, 2020.

 

Considering the potentially grave consequences of a battery fire, we are committed to prioritizing above all else the safety of our Customers.

 

Here is our plan of attack:

• Gotway have been immediately notified 
• We have identified and are sharing this information with our Customers who received a Nikola+ 1800Wh which contains the potentially faulty cells
• Over the coming 4-5 weeks, we will be coordinating a phased replacement program of affectedbattery packs with new packs containing LG M50T cells

These incidents are rare, but obviously unsettling when they occur.

If you do wish to continue using your Nikola+ during the interim, the statistical risk of a spontaneous battery fire is present enough, so please store in an outside area, or alternatively discharge the Wheel & remove the battery packs, we will provide a prepaid return shipping label. 

 

There will be a follow-on communication when there is more information from Gotway, in the next week or two.

[Paul A]

The member provided link to pictures and videos of the Nikola fire.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/16OmH-pp96OO1PcYyTYf2m-vYbLFyCFhW?usp=sharing

 

From the videos, does not seem advisable to try and fight an EUC fire, especially indoors.

[StefanBRO]

1 hour ago, Paul A said:

It seems to show the Gotway fire that prompted eWheels to commence a battery recall/replacement program, notifying affected customers, contracting third party battery assembly, other safety improvements etc..

I feel like the user only ever charging to 90% could also have played a part in this incident. This could have caused cells to fall wildly out of balance, increasing their resistance. Not defending Gotway, just saying we really need active balancing throughout the entire charge cycle for ALL brands. Then we could finally make real use of only partially charging the packs safely. I wonder how many of these fires were caused by the packs becoming unbalanced. I do own an eWheels charger and I love the 80% mode for putting the wheel in storage. I do make sure to charge to 100% before riding it after that though. EDIT: This can be made worse by the pack manufacturers not matching their cells properly, so you start with a slightly unbalanced pack. Also, both my Gotway wheels came with a tag attached telling you how to unlock it from shipping. Oddly both of them had numbers written on them. One had 83.4? (I cant remember) and the other had 83.6. I'm guessing this was the "full charge voltage" the distributor (Alien Rides) saw. I know there may be losses in the cabling and BMS for measurement but it kinda put me on edge. Both wheels still terminate to those voltages after they are done so I assume its okay, if I notice a drop in either I'm certainly going to look much closer at the packs.

Edited November 4, 2021 by StefanBRO

[Paul A]

The report of someone's house being burnt down in Sweden, and it being the second MSP in a month is very disturbing.

Hope details will be provided.

[AtlasP]

4 hours ago, level9 said:

I had received an email from eWheels a while ago about my delayed Begode Mten3 order:

Here's a quick update on your MTen3 orders: we have an order in for a couple hundred of these machines, but have decided to select a professional battery pack provider that offers improved safety capabilities—short circuit protection, temperature sensors, improved nickel interconnects, etc.

 

So, presumably, Begode wheels are missing some degree of short circuit and overheating protection and the interconnect quality may be substandard. This is one of the reasons I've avoided their wheels from all the fire related reports I've seen around the internet. So, it wouldn't surprise me if a Begode product was in some way responsible for the fire. This is also one of the reasons I like eWheels as they look out for their customers. I'm hoping they bounce back fast!

I detailed the improved eWheels packs in my last news round-up, here: https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/17309-euc-comparison-table-project-with-monthly-updatesnews-roundups/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-389532 (Jason 'liked' it at the time so presumably it's accurate :-) )

Edited November 4, 2021 by AtlasP

[Menace]

19 hours ago, Mango said:

what packs are in these MSPs?

They use the 900wh 21700 packs. I may be wrong, but I think they were the first wheels to use the 900wh packs (and 21700 cells in general). It's either the MSP or Nikola that used them first.

[Paradox]

Ewheels.com off line this morning?

@Jason McNeil

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Paradox

[Menace]

54 minutes ago, Paradox said:

Ewheels.com off line this morning?

@Jason McNeil

 

still working for me.

https://www.ewheels.com/shop/

[Paradox]

1 minute ago, Menace said:

still working for me.

Yep!  Website back online!

Thanks!

[mhpr262]

On 11/4/2021 at 6:48 PM, StefanBRO said:

we really need active balancing throughout the entire charge cycle for ALL brands

It seems almost incredible to me that that wasnt already implemented  a long time ago. In R/C sports with lipo batteries that has always been standard, from the very beginning, and I had no idea other methods even existed. I mean, what is the purpose?!