INMOTION V12

[RagingGrandpa]

17 minutes ago, supercurio said:

What do you think?

I think you should cancel your preorder  

[Paul A]

Supercurio has the V12 only on pre order???

Think RG's advice makes a lot of sense...

 

[Waulnut]

28 minutes ago, supercurio said:

They committed to new boards as replacement for the ones that failed, but for everyone else it's up in the air at the moment.

I emailed eWheels yesterday and it was regarding replacement control boards for existing V12s. Quoting Jason, "In terms of an action plan, Inmotion have committed to replacing these V12 controllers, but they're constrained by the current chip shortages, expecting to receive a supply towards the end of March/April timeframe. The replacement boards will be provided free of charge."

Of course this is coming from eWheels and for wheels bought from them. I suggest others ask their wheel distributor how it will be handled. 

I'm at about ~400 miles on my wheel since stress testing announcement. I ride geared up for impending doom on each outing. I hope they stress the board component to death in factory before send out. 

[Rawnei]

34 minutes ago, Waulnut said:

I emailed eWheels yesterday and it was regarding replacement control boards for existing V12s. Quoting Jason, "In terms of an action plan, Inmotion have committed to replacing these V12 controllers, but they're constrained by the current chip shortages, expecting to receive a supply towards the end of March/April timeframe. The replacement boards will be provided free of charge."

Of course this is coming from eWheels and for wheels bought from them. I suggest others ask their wheel distributor how it will be handled. 

I'm at about ~400 miles on my wheel since stress testing announcement. I ride geared up for impending doom on each outing. I hope they stress the board component to death in factory before send out.

I think they communicate more with some resellers over others, probably not out of cutesy more because some resellers simply puts more pressure on them.

[jimjam.nyc]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

 

V12 HS batch 1 & batch 2: has board failure

• Inmotion provides an upgraded, durable replacement V12 HT-like board when available at no cost
• Inmotion pays for shipping costs from/to the repair center and repair

Essentially, no change

V12 HS batch 1 & batch 2: passes the stress test, has no failure

• Inmotion provides the same upgraded board when available at no cost if requested.
• Shipping and repair costs are not covered by Inmotion. Might be at the charge of the customer or shop - case by case.
• Inmotion attempts to compensate when the customer incurs costs by sending free accessory, like Honeycomb pedal - case by case.
• Some customers might choose to keep the wheel as-is despite being fully informed. Up to them

How to call it. Optional replacement program? So far recall has been a dead end IMO, despite this is what I'd like to happen to be the most safe and leave the fewest behind.

 

What do you think?
 

 

Personally, I have a v12 that didnt fail stress test or anything. I already contacted ewheels just for my own head. I would be willing to pay something for a replacement board as long as inmotion finds no real flaws in their design and shows this in some sort of REAL and True communication. I would probably purchase a replacement board just for my own mental well being. (unless this is fixed in software)

If there truly is a design flaw that makes a crash pretty much inevitable and or random.. Then i think boards should be replaced free of charge. I would be willing to pay shipping and labor, but I am comfortable replacing a board myself (not parts on a board)

I also would love to be able to see what the cause and solution was.

I have stated earlier in this thread that I do feel somewhat safe on my v12 1st batch. I have put it through a decent amount already with no issues, but it is a catch 22. In the back of our minds is always the thought of cutout.. The only thing that would fix that is transparency on the issue and the fix.. Even a new board will not fix this for me if they don't communicate what the issue was and what fixes it. 

 

I do have some faith that inmotion will do the right thing. It will just take patience on our part. Hopefully this doesnt take more than a few months to sort out. As it really is a fun and great wheel to ride, that is otherwise being overshadowed by this issue. 

 

 

 

[Shane Dougherty]

1 hour ago, jimjam.nyc said:

 

Personally, I have a v12 that didnt fail stress test or anything. I already contacted ewheels just for my own head. I would be willing to pay something for a replacement board as long as inmotion finds no real flaws in their design and shows this in some sort of REAL and True communication. I would probably purchase a replacement board just for my own mental well being. (unless this is fixed in software)

If there truly is a design flaw that makes a crash pretty much inevitable and or random.. Then i think boards should be replaced free of charge. I would be willing to pay shipping and labor, but I am comfortable replacing a board myself (not parts on a board)

I also would love to be able to see what the cause and solution was.

I have stated earlier in this thread that I do feel somewhat safe on my v12 1st batch. I have put it through a decent amount already with no issues, but it is a catch 22. In the back of our minds is always the thought of cutout.. The only thing that would fix that is transparency on the issue and the fix.. Even a new board will not fix this for me if they don't communicate what the issue was and what fixes it. 

 

I do have some faith that inmotion will do the right thing. It will just take patience on our part. Hopefully this doesnt take more than a few months to sort out. As it really is a fun and great wheel to ride, that is otherwise being overshadowed by this issue. 

 

 

 

 

[Shane Dougherty]

I am 100% in agreement. Inmotion may not be willing to pay shipping and labor to fix wheels whether it's the right thing to do or not.  I think it's very reasonable for them to send all inmotion v12 owners an improved and tested control board that we can replace ourselves or we pay a local dealer to install for us.  Costs of shipping boards to us would be much less than shipping wheels.

It sucks that it's going to take months but I'd rather be safe from random cutouts.

[Silverfish]

5 hours ago, supercurio said:

 

 

What do you think?
 

If there was a way where I could pay shipping and have it fixed ASAP I would do it, and be happy about it. Its my only EUC so I just want to be able to use it.

I am sympathetic about supply chain issues, but if I start seeing the high torque model coming out before this is resolved I will be pretty choked.  

[supercurio]

4 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

I think you should cancel your preorder  

 

4 hours ago, Paul A said:

Supercurio has the V12 only on pre order???

Think RG's advice makes a lot of sense...

My preorder arrived at the distributor, who received 9x V12 total. 1 failed the test so I said that would be my wheel because I was not gonna buy the V12 as it is now anyway and could wait.

Fortunately the distributor is giving me more time to decide to support the effort with Inmotion.

I keep this order open essentially to keep me interested in the topic, I don't need it as winter wheel anymore.

4 hours ago, Waulnut said:

I emailed eWheels yesterday and it was regarding replacement control boards for existing V12s. Quoting Jason, "In terms of an action plan, Inmotion have committed to replacing these V12 controllers, but they're constrained by the current chip shortages, expecting to receive a supply towards the end of March/April timeframe. The replacement boards will be provided free of charge."

Of course this is coming from eWheels and for wheels bought from them. I suggest others ask their wheel distributor how it will be handled. 

I'm at about ~400 miles on my wheel since stress testing announcement. I ride geared up for impending doom on each outing. I hope they stress the board component to death in factory before send out. 

What does @Jason McNeil meant by "replacing these V12 controllers" in this context?

These "which failed" or these "all of them"?

On February 9, another distributor was told "We are probably not recalling the HS version"

So either it evolved since (great!), or Inmotion says different things to different distributors (oops), or there's a misunderstanding.

 

Thanks @jimjam.nyc @Shane Dougherty @Silverfish for the detailed replies as well.

 

[Waulnut]

41 minutes ago, supercurio said:

These "which failed" or these "all of them"?

I realized I was vague in my email. I should have asked if it was for all wheels, dead and functional. 

My question was: 

1) Will eWheels have new revised boards for current batch 2 V12 owners when available? 

 

2) If there is, will it be with warranty replacement or perhaps a large discount/repair if not warrantied?

 

[Cress]

 

@supercurio

Progress starts somewhere.  Airplanes became safer after pilots and manufacturers listened to each other (we'll forget the regulations, laws and politics for now).  You are helping Inmotion fix user-support problems after Inmotion made an uninformed choice on their controller board.  Inmotion will have renewed respect for engineering and EUC buyers will learn what to expect for customer-support.

I'm willing to bet EUC manufacturers are small shops that regularly make design choices without expert advice.  Inmotion has this opportunity to make adjustments, make design/development choices differently and avoid customer-service issues.  If Inmotion becomes a successful company you are helping Inmotion during a learning curve.

EUC buyers in Western countries have expectations for customer-service that Asian EUC manufacturers will not meet.  EUC buyers should have realistic expectations of Customer Support.  Large EUC distributors are large customers of the manufacturer, have influence with the EUC manufacturer and build customer loyalty by supporting individual EUC buyers in a way the manufacturer never could.  

New EUC buyers should be informed they are buying from manufacturers who are innovative and creative and are not required to 'make the customer whole' by repairing/replacing.  If Inmotion replaces 'broken' control boards and distributors (re-sellers) replace 'working batch 1 + batch 2' control boards EUC buyers are doing well. I'm good to install my own control board.  I'll be surprised if either Inmotion or a distributor pays shipping for any repair or repair part - but I'm O.K. with surprises.

Safety Notices for EUCs aren't going to develop the same way they did for aircraft.  EUC riders have an extra burden to read Internet sources including ElectricUnicycle.org for safety-related information. Aircraft safety notices are organized and centrally located.  Aircraft safety notices give the reader an importance rating, no reader interpretation needed.  EUC safety-related posting on the Internet is open to interpretation, might benefit from mechanical/electrical engineering analysis, not helpful for an average EUC user.  EUC safety looks like a continuing issue, no single solution and open for ideas.

EUCs are less expensive to repair than aircraft, share user-resistance-to-safety-notices with aircraft and fly while your feet are on the ground.

 

[GothamMike]

Yet Begode ignores the obvious.

[tombo]

Was curious if any V12 owners have been able to use Darknessbot to honk the horn or toggle the headlights. I get all the metrics but can't control those. Not a huge deal with the soundwave on to alert pedestrians, but I got used to telling Siri to honk the horn on my MTen3 with it.

[Paul g]

I went in the town center with my V12. I almost hit a lady on the crossing because I could not brake in time. I managed to jump off it and some how catch it. I don’t know how I did it but it was so close. Second, I had to stop on a red signal, again could not stop in time. I had to again jump off it. The slow brake is a real danger. Be careful. I won’t ride mine on roads again. I came home shaking. 

[AtlasP]

5 minutes ago, Paul g said:

I went in the town center with my V12. I almost hit a lady on the crossing because I could not brake in time. I managed to jump off it and some how catch it. I don’t know how I did it but it was so close. Second, I had to stop on a red signal, again could not stop in time. I had to again jump off it. The slow brake is a real danger. Be careful. I won’t ride mine on roads again. I came home shaking. 

Every vehicle has different acceleration and braking characteristics. Failing to take these into account--by modifying speeds, accounting for relative stopping distances, etc--and expecting any one vehicle to automatically behave like another is fundamentally rider error.

[Waulnut]

32 minutes ago, Paul g said:

I went in the town center with my V12. I almost hit a lady on the crossing because I could not brake in time. I managed to jump off it and some how catch it. I don’t know how I did it but it was so close. Second, I had to stop on a red signal, again could not stop in time. I had to again jump off it. The slow brake is a real danger. Be careful. I won’t ride mine on roads again. I came home shaking. 

The v12 doesn't brake like my previous RS-S for sure. But like @AtlasP said, it's on the rider's end with experience on the wheel.

I'm glad no harm was done to both individuals. I suggest taking the v12 out and do some emergency braking to see what you're comfortable with. Hope it restores some confidence back afterwards. 

[conecones]

49 minutes ago, Paul g said:

I went in the town center with my V12. I almost hit a lady on the crossing because I could not brake in time. I managed to jump off it and some how catch it. I don’t know how I did it but it was so close. Second, I had to stop on a red signal, again could not stop in time. I had to again jump off it. The slow brake is a real danger. Be careful. I won’t ride mine on roads again. I came home shaking. 

Try these settings:

Offroad
Split ride mode
80%-100% speeding
80-100% braking

Jump pads/lean pads with the brake section perpendicular to pedal (not leaning back).

Should be able to brake pretty fast. Does not have the initial bite of Gotway wheels, but has good bite near the end (likely due to wheel size vs 18" wheels). With Flexpads (Hulajmarket), I hit overload/please repair alarms on braking more regularly than I'd like riding in busy streets. These pads are mounted low and doesn't provide much leverage compared to say Clarkpads, so with the proper setup, it should be easy to brake to the point of overpowering. If you haven't hit the alarm, you need to adjust setup and/or technique.

[The Brahan Seer]

1 hour ago, Paul g said:

I won’t ride mine on roads again.

Don't lose heart, its all a learning curve and you have gained valuable experience already. So you understand the limitations of the wheel currently, so when you next go out observe where you are and everything around you and take preventative action. The great thing about EUC riding is braking or simply slowing down is as much fun as speeding up. I don't know your experience on the road generally but if it is limited check out DanDanthefireman's youtube channel; try his earlier videos to learn some road craft from a bikers perspective.

[Rawnei]

9 hours ago, Paul g said:

I went in the town center with my V12. I almost hit a lady on the crossing because I could not brake in time. I managed to jump off it and some how catch it. I don’t know how I did it but it was so close. Second, I had to stop on a red signal, again could not stop in time. I had to again jump off it. The slow brake is a real danger. Be careful. I won’t ride mine on roads again. I came home shaking. 

It's not the wheel, pure speculation but could be you were going too fast, could be you weren't leaning back enough, could be your foot/pad positioning need to stand a little bit further back to help you lean back and brake.

[lirva]

9 hours ago, Paul g said:

. The slow brake is a real danger.

Try to set the braking a bit softer (commuter mode) and smaller percentage to braking, so that the wheel leans backwards a bit, at least for me it helps with braking. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by lirva

[Paul A]

A traffic light usually changes to amber to give drivers/riders plenty of time to slow and stop.

How is it possible to not stop in time?

How is it possible to nearly hit a pedestrian at a crossing?

[UniVehje]

These things don't have brakes. If you ride the wheel backwards do you accelerate slower? If the wheel reacts fine when accelerating, lack of braking is just a matter of settings and user experience. Every discussion about braking or acceleration should focus on EASE of said thing. Most people seem to want more power and voltage for better acceleration and stronger brakes (while insisting on using always hardest mode), when in reality it's a matter of wheel geometry, settings and algorithms. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by UniVehje

[yoos]

21 minutes ago, Paul A said:

How is it possible to not stop in time?

How is it possible to nearly hit a pedestrian at a crossing?

Quite easy when driving an unfamiliar vehicle and using reflexes/muscle memory accustomed to another vehicle. The first time I tried the V11, I fell backwards when braking because I was used to the KS16 and my input was insufficient for the V11 to slow down as quickly. Another example: I took a carsharing car on January 1st and immediately had to stop to let a lady cross the street. I was going slow (40kph) and had plenty distance (50m) but there was suddenly little to no traction (obvious from the ABS system happily engaging with cozy cracking sounds). I stopped right in front of the lady. Turns out the car somehow had worn out summer tires [which should be impossible mid-Winter with the amount of maintenance carsharing vehicles get].

As others point out, you have to familiarize yourself with the new vehicle first. Most importantly, test and train braking. The V12 has enough power, it's indeed about settings and technique.

Edited February 15, 2022 by yoos

[ien]

  

11 hours ago, Paul g said:

I went in the town center with my V12. I almost hit a lady on the crossing because I could not brake in time. I managed to jump off it and some how catch it. I don’t know how I did it but it was so close. Second, I had to stop on a red signal, again could not stop in time. I had to again jump off it. The slow brake is a real danger. Be careful. I won’t ride mine on roads again. I came home shaking. 

Are you using any accessories with v12?

IMHO, if you want to have more control - you need to use pads. It's not new, the same 'issue' was with v11 (the wheel was viscous)

https://eucmarket.ru/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/photo_2021-05-29_17-45-11.jpg

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by ien

[Timwheel]

11 hours ago, Paul g said:

I went in the town center with my V12. I almost hit a lady on the crossing because I could not brake in time. I managed to jump off it and some how catch it. I don’t know how I did it but it was so close. Second, I had to stop on a red signal, again could not stop in time. I had to again jump off it. The slow brake is a real danger. Be careful. I won’t ride mine on roads again. I came home shaking. 

It has very little to do with the wheel. I use my v12 all the time, cruising at 60 kph on the streets of my city, and I can stop as well as a hard braking car. I used to be on split mode, but now I prefer commuting 100% sensibility. You HAVE to get pads on the V12, or at least use settings that allow the wheel to tilt back when braking.

 

I rode padeless for 150-200 km with no issues but I had a huge buffer zone in front of me, knowing I could potentielly wobble initially (again, completely rider induced) and that I would need some space to get the wheel under control. I now use the Alexa Pads, this is not the same wheel. Acceleration is insane, braking is superb if you sit right. Also, you should ALWAYS get some training time in a calm street to learn emergency braking until it becomes second nature. Else, you will wobble or not brake hard enough. This is only up to you, if you don't overpower the wheel then it brakes well enough, you just need to find settings and pads that will allow you to control your wheel.

 

You owe it to yourself and to the pedestrians. Or, just slow down if you can't.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Timwheel