INMOTION V12

[Paradox]

The V12 has wires coming out of both sides.  This makes it easier to confuse which side was which.  Wheels with wires coming out of only one side of the motor it is harder to confuse which is the right way to install.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Paradox

[Rawnei]

25 minutes ago, Jeff Earl said:

A cautionary tale indeed. But what I don't understand is why this isn't the case with all wheels. Chooch seems to imply that this issue is unique to Inmotion or the V12 specifically. Why isn't this the same with all wheels? For self-balancing to work, the motor direction is fundamental. The controller drives the motor to apply a torque counter to any lean angle induced by the rider. If the motor is installed backwards, rather than correcting the lean angle, the resulting torque would increase it, driving the controller to dump even more power to the motor in a futile attempt to maintain level. The resulting feedback loop will always result in a catastrophic runaway condition (and perhaps broken baseboards), no? Unless other wheels have an asymmetric mounting arrangement (or short cables) that makes it physically impossible to install the motor backwards, I would think all EUCs could ruin your day if you install the motor backwards. Of course some tire tread patterns are directional as well, but getting the tire wrong is of far lesser consequence. 

 

The V12 has cables going out on both sides, most wheels only have cables going out on one side and it's only possible to install it in one direction, because of this difference on the V12 you can accidentally install it the motor in the wrong direction.

[Jeff Earl]

20 minutes ago, Paradox said:

The V12 has wires coming out of both sides.  This makes it easier to confuse which side was which.  Wheels with wires coming out of only one side of the motor it is harder to confuse which is the right way to install.

Ahh. Makes total sense. Basically agrees with my asymmetric mounting thought. I guess this is one minor advantage of sticking the controller on one side of the wheel--it makes it hard to screw up the motor orientation.

[Unventor]

20 hours ago, Funky said:

Dam, that's dangerous. Did not know if you put motor other way, it will go crazy..

Check out this video.

 

How would you expect the wheel to know front from back? 

When using a hal sensor, then motor phases have to be mounted in correct order to this. 

[Funky]

3 hours ago, Unventor said:

How would you expect the wheel to know front from back? 

When using a hal sensor, then motor phases have to be mounted in correct order to this. 

I expected they don't.. ? I thought it did not mater, because you can ride front or back.

Regular people would not know that. 

In the video he even connected wires correctly. The motor just where put other way. (Don't know how v12 is built, so...)

Edited January 24, 2022 by Funky
Wires..

[Jeff Earl]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

Regular people would not know that. 

Alright Mr. Funky (if that is your real name), are you implying that I'm irregular? I mean, perhaps I could use a bit more fiber in my diet--but otherwise I consider myself pretty normal in EUC-enthusiast terms.

All kidding aside, I really appreciate the spirited and knowledgeable discourse that happens in this forum. It's a terrific way to share and learn about this emerging hobby/obsession. Ther's no shortage of smart, experienced riders sharing their unique perspectives and technical expertise.

[Funky]

12 minutes ago, Jeff Earl said:

Alright Mr. Funky (if that is your real name), are you implying that I'm irregular? I mean, perhaps I could use a bit more fiber in my diet--but otherwise I consider myself pretty normal in EUC-enthusiast terms.

All kidding aside, I really appreciate the spirited and knowledgeable discourse that happens in this forum. It's a terrific way to share and learn about this emerging hobby/obsession. Ther's no shortage of smart, experienced riders sharing their unique perspectives and technical expertise.

Don't assume my GENDER! 

Well i don't know about rest of wheels and how they "connect", but my 18xl can only go one way back together.

If there is not shown specific way to put back together. And i did not know, that it goes back only one way.. There's 50/50 chance it would run off for me.

Isn't there any warning or something about that in V12? (Something that shows it can go only one way?)

Edited January 24, 2022 by Funky

[nosamplesplease]

2 hours ago, Unventor said:

How would you expect the wheel to know front from back? 

When using a hal sensor, then motor phases have to be mounted in correct order to this. 

More complicated logic. A diagnostic spin and feedback from the hall sensors could discover orientation. Then reverse logic could be applied to output. Doable but not ideal or probably even smart. 

[Unventor]

6 hours ago, Funky said:

Well i don't know about rest of wheels and how they "connect", but my 18xl can only go one way back together.

That is not entirely correct. If you have to exchange the control board you have a 50-50 change for it to go wrong if you don't make proper notes. (I am guilty of such, but got lu ky). 

[Jeff Earl]

Perhaps we can agree that mature consumer products should be designed to anticipate and thwart unintentional and potentially dangerous misconfiguration by end-users--especially when a certain level of maintenance (like tire changing) is required. Unfortunately, the EUC industry is just not there yet, and early adopters are still expected to conduct difficult and error prone maintenance procedures on their own.   It would be simple to design a motor assembly or control board that could only fit into the shell one way, but the manufacturers don't yet take this into account.  I wouldn't doubt that for the wheels that can only be assembled one way today, it's more a matter of luck than an intensional design decision.  Inmotion could certainly make the orientation of the motor more obvious--and they absolutely should.  Even just printing a big L and R on the motor to designate the correct alignment would be a positive step, if still far from fool proof.  

 

I dream of the day when EUCs sport a easily removable motor/tire assembly that slots mechanically and electrically in to the body (only one way, of course).   Removable, swappable battery packs would be great as well.  Maybe we will see this someday, but in the meantime early adopters have an unusually high maintenance and risk burden to accept. And don't get me started on the lack of redundancy in these things... Even the original Segway had safety features like duel motor windings and redundant controller boards. And they topped out at something like 15 MPH!

 

[EUC Phenomenon]

3 hours ago, Jeff Earl said:

Even just printing a big L and R on the motor to designate the correct alignment would be a positive step

Totally agree. And Inmotion could have used a different plug on the left side than what's on the right, so it would be impossible to plug it in to the board if the motor is the wrong way

Edited January 25, 2022 by Tel01

[RArtem]

Jus't don't disassemble the wheel if you don't know what your are doing. You have at least directional thread pattern on your tire and nipple for pumping from only one side on wheel. Wiring is also different from two sides. It has only 3 phase wires (one from the side, and two from the others). So just make photos during disassembly or mark everything with stickers or marker.

[Planemo]

4 hours ago, Jeff Earl said:

And don't get me started on the lack of redundancy in these things... 

I do sometimes think I am mental to get on an inherently unstable platform with zero redundancy and take it to 40mph. My brother (with a degree in EE) certainly does and quaintly refers to the beeper as the 'lunacy buzzer'. I can't help feel that the next generation of riders will think we were out of our minds to be riding the wheels we do.

[mrelwood]

On 1/23/2022 at 8:23 PM, Funky said:

Dam, that's dangerous. Did not know if you put motor other way, it will go crazy..

Check out this video.

 

Oh Chooch, man that was embarrassing! And not the fact that he made a mistake which even caused some damage, that’s very understandable. Everybody makes mistakes. That’s life.

 What’s embarrassing is the truckload of completely false information he shares as an “explanation” for what happened. I would expect a guy at his level of fame to tone down the guesswork just a notch or twenty.

 Just like the guys before me already concluded, it had absolutely nothing to do with anything wheel or manufacturer specific, or the digital display (?!), or the “digital” “calibration”, which isn’t even a calibration but an user set horizontal offset. (Wheels with an offset adjustment still need to be calibrated.)

”It can be ridden in both directions, so it shouldn’t matter“… Almost every mode of transport can go forward and backwards, and the motor still has to be installed in the correct orientation. Self balancing vehicles especially. If I was falling forward and someone secretly installed my feet backwards, how would the situation unravel?

 Not that I’m a big fan of reading YT comments, but with this one especially In going to stay far away. It can’t be a pretty sight.

I know I’m harsh for this, but man, he deserves it.

[Wolverine]

A Facebook group called Inmotion V11 Owners has an interesting new post. According to the post and comments, Inmotion V11 has problems with power mosfets as it is with V12. The author of the post seems to have two V11 unicycles, and both have broken for the same reason. As it seemed suspicious, I decided to investigate. I contacted a couple of resellers and gave them a link to this specific Facebook post. I got the answer that resellers don't know anything about this situation (no one hasn’t contacted with them regarding to this problem). They also contacted with Inmotion and manufacturer said that the V11 has no problems with power mosfets. At this point, I would like to remind everyone that everything on Facebook may not be true. If it seems suspicious, it is worth investigating, just as I did. Inmotion V11 is still a very good choice to buy.

[Funky]

8 minutes ago, Wolverine said:

A Facebook group called Inmotion V11 Owners has an interesting new post. According to the post and comments, Inmotion V11 has problems with power mosfets as it is with V12. The author of the post seems to have two V11 unicycles, and both have broken for the same reason. As it seemed suspicious, I decided to investigate. I contacted a couple of resellers and gave them a link to this specific Facebook post. I got the answer that resellers don't know anything about this situation (no one hasn’t contacted with them regarding to this problem). They also contacted with Inmotion and manufacturer said that the V11 has no problems with power mosfets. At this point, I would like to remind everyone that everything on Facebook may not be true. If it seems suspicious, it is worth investigating, just as I did. Inmotion V11 is still a very good choice to buy.

People can lie etc.. But maybe, just maybe he had some problems, who knows.

 

[Boostnsvt]

I just pulled my thermal pad off the mosfets and found the rubber glue was used DIRECTLY on the thermal pad or mosfets. If the purpose of the pad is to conduct and disperse heat, a rubber barrier would inhibit that drastically. I am in the process of replacing the pad for paste.

[conecones]

On 1/23/2022 at 1:23 PM, Funky said:

Dam, that's dangerous. Did not know if you put motor other way, it will go crazy..

Check out this video.

 

Title is not clickbait-y enough. Maybe something like this would help "DANGER: INSANE HALF E-BIKE DESTROYS BASEBOARD OF HALF COMPETENT E-REVIEWER" 

[Funky]

8 minutes ago, conecones said:

Title is not clickbait-y enough. Maybe something like this would help "DANGER: INSANE HALF E-BIKE DESTROYS BASEBOARD OF HALF COMPETENT E-REVIEWER" 

I bet at least he has 80% more experience than some of "us" (Who simply bought euc and rides it.. Doesn't look inside it.) Like my self. xD

Only thing i know is how to change tire. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Funky

[mrelwood]

29 minutes ago, Boostnsvt said:

I just pulled my thermal pad off the mosfets and found the rubber glue was used DIRECTLY on the thermal pad or mosfets. If the purpose of the pad is to conduct and disperse heat, a rubber barrier would inhibit that drastically. I am in the process of replacing the pad for paste.

Please note that the thermal pad is being used as an electrical insulator, not because it would be somehow better than just paste. An electrical connection is very possible when using just paste. Instead, replace the pad with mica discs, and use the paste with those for one of the best thermal coupling solutions.

[RockyTop]

I thought the video was hilarious. He said what was about to happen and then to his surprise it did. I deal with this daily. You have 4 possible set ups and only one of them work properly: 

1 motor and encoder forward- good

2 motor forwards, encoder backwards -bad vibration- possible failure 

3 motor backwards encoder forward- bad vibration - possible failure 

4 motor and encoder backwards- it goes backwards. In the case of an EUC? Watch the video. It takes off full speed. 

[Chriull]

54 minutes ago, Boostnsvt said:

I just pulled my thermal pad off the mosfets and found the rubber glue was used DIRECTLY on the thermal pad or mosfets.

Really glue?! Not maybe some old/too much thermal paste?

Edit: way too much thermal paste is a nice way insulate thermally, too...

If not this sounds like the nikola glue gate.

Thermal pads are used even without thermal paste...

54 minutes ago, Boostnsvt said:

If the purpose of the pad is to conduct and disperse heat, a rubber barrier would inhibit that drastically.

Exactly! Rubber is some great insulator...

54 minutes ago, Boostnsvt said:

I am in the process of replacing the pad for paste.

That will lead to fireworks - the li ion battery packs shortened by the mosfets heatsink...

Don't to this!

As @mrelwood stated an electric insulator is needed!

Mica is great, some Al oxid ceramics shall be better.

Afaik there exist thermal pads that can about/almost compete with mica.

Important is to use a little bit paste with mica and the ceramic plates and _no_ paste with thermal pads.

Maybe inmotion has no mosfet problem but just imitate gotways glue gate... 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Chriull

[Tawpie]

2 hours ago, Wolverine said:

Inmotion V11 is still a very good choice to buy.

Agreed. But I do know of a local case where a MOSFET on a fairly new V11 cracked and dumped the rider on their face. So like all wheels, there are instances of failure... doesn't mean IM has more or less problems than others.

[Boostnsvt]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Please note that the thermal pad is being used as an electrical insulator, not because it would be somehow better than just paste. An electrical connection is very possible when using just paste. Instead, replace the pad with mica discs, and use the paste with those for one of the best thermal coupling solutions.

 

I dont understand what you mean when you said that "an electrical connection is very possible when using just paste". Is this to assume that there might be a short or something similar occur and it then transfer through the mosfets?

Wouldnt ceramic thermal paste be better then? It would harden and ensure a 100% contact area.

 

On second thought, is my assumption that the aluminum is not being used as a heat dispersion/dissipation area? I feel like Im not grasping something in the setup or their design process.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Boostnsvt

[enaon]

on the v11, the board is of low quality, soldering is the worst I have seen yet, all in all a truly bad board. 

What I liked less it that their fets were not from the same batch, Infineon fets have batch number printed on them, the ones on the v11 were random.

Also the v11 do not use a pad for the mosfets, the pad is to cool down the motor's resistors, they are placed right next to the fets, The fets use a thin film for electic insulation, and paste. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by enaon