INMOTION V12

[Shane Dougherty]

5 hours ago, nosamplesplease said:

Expensive.

But I think necessary if they want to remain #1. Unless they make it right,  I doubt I'll buy another Inmotion for fear of similar issue. 

[Paul g]

22 hours ago, conecones said:

This is not limited to Aliexpress, but any online (even local retail) businesses where the item you are buying is large, heavy and expensive. There is no such thing as "free return" for these types of items no matter where you buy it from, and again, not limited to EUC's. You should expect the seller to do everything in their power to not take the product back unless it is broken and cannot be repaired. The only exceptions are places like Costco, Amazon, Walmart, etc., and please understand they take huge losses to accommodate this policy. I have worked in retail and the amount of customers abusing this kind of "Free Return" return policy is surprising. When someone buys a $3,000 leather couch, puts it in their house for a week and then tries to return it in a shopping cart without the box, very few retailers will accept. Now imagine the retailer being in China. I'm not saying you are one of these customers, this is just an example for you imagine the perspective of the retailer. I would not be too upset in your position if your V12 arrived in working condition.

Your current options now depend on this:
1. Does your V12 work? Does it pass the spin test? If so, sell it locally and you can break even/take minimal losses.

2. If it is broken, you should be able to negotiate free replacement parts from the seller. Repair it yourself or get some help. Once fixed, sell locally and break even/take minimal losses.

IMO it is not worth the time to continue arguing with the seller/Aliexpress or explain to your bank for a credit card return. Just sell it locally.

When free return doesn’t mean free return we are talking about lies, plain and simple.

[Chriull]

23 minutes ago, Paul g said:

When free return doesn’t mean free return we are talking about lies, plain and simple.

On aliexpress free return means that one has the right to return and returning does not trigger any penalties. So one is free to return this for free.

Just one is reaponsible for the return transport of the order - one bears the cost and the risk of the transport. Just some articles specially marked have free return transport, too.

At least at the EU aliexpress website this is very clearly written in some a bit ambigous english.

[Paul g]

1 hour ago, Chriull said:

On aliexpress free return means that one has the right to return and returning does not trigger any penalties. So one is free to return this for free.

Just one is reaponsible for the return transport of the order - one bears the cost and the risk of the transport. Just some articles specially marked have free return transport, too.

At least at the EU aliexpress website this is very clearly written in some a bit ambigous english.

You have just described in detail the action of tricking buyers with misleading claims on an online store. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Paul g

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, Chriull said:

one is reaponsible for the return transport of the order - one bears the cost and the risk of the transport.

translation: Buy insurance for the full replacement value of the products being returned. 'returns' have been known to go missing before they're acknowledged as arriving at their destination.

[Paradox]

51 minutes ago, Paul g said:

You have just described in detail the action of tricking buyers with misleading claims on an online store. 

The return policy for a retailer here in the US has similar sounding confusing details. 

https://freemotionshop.com/return-policy/

 

[ien]

16 hours ago, Paul g said:

When free return doesn’t mean free return we are talking about lies, plain and simple.

Sorry, but correct me if I misunderstood: you have working wheel and you just want your money back, right? If yes, in this case you can do nothing.

You bought the wheel when you found out about FETs, you used this wheel, and want to send it back right now. Inmo hasn't announced a refund company, so the dealer is right (not about closing the dispute, ofc).

Edited February 1, 2022 by ien

[Paul g]

My deal with the seller is that I don’t want full refund, because I used the wheel. 

10 hours ago, ien said:

You bought the wheel when you found out about FETs, you used this wheel, and want to send it back right now. Inmo hasn't announced a refund company, so the dealer is right (not about closing the dispute, ofc).

When I ordered the wheel I had no idea the wheel has issues with mosfets. 

I received the wheel at about the same time with the others. Then cutouts started happening.

 

[Paul g]

21 hours ago, Paradox said:

The return policy for a retailer here in the US has similar sounding confusing details. 

https://freemotionshop.com/return-policy/

 

They had bigger brothers in China that served as raw model 😂

[Paul g]

3 hours ago, Paul g said:

My deal with the seller is that I don’t want full refund, because I used the wheel. 

When I ordered the wheel I had no idea the wheel has issues with mosfets. 

I received the wheel at about the same time with the others. Then cutouts started happening.

 

Oh. And I didn’t want to send the wheel back! I waited almost until the end of my “free” return period in the hope that InMotion will come with a good solution to the problem. To my disappointment they didn’t come with a satisfying one. I was ready to pay my own money on a proper replacement board with proper MOSFETs 😔 . 

Edited February 1, 2022 by Paul g

[ien]

On 2/2/2022 at 1:29 AM, Paul g said:

Oh. And I didn’t want to send the wheel back! I waited almost until the end of my “free” return period in the hope that InMotion will come with a good solution to the problem. To my disappointment they didn’t come with a satisfying one. I was ready to pay my own money on a proper replacement board with proper MOSFETs 😔 . 

But you wrote that 

On 1/30/2022 at 8:26 PM, Paul g said:

                   
       As you may well know I wanted to return my V12.

As we all know, a replacement board for HS will come with the HT version. It will be after March.

[Paul g]

10 hours ago, ien said:

But you wrote that 

As we all know, a replacement board for HS will come with the HT version. It will be after March.

InMotion never said that the new board will have the proper MOSFETs properly rated for the new board.

They only said “more durable mosfets”. Nobody knows what they describe by that. It could be the same as the first ones but with better quality checks. They were saying about the MOSFETs they use now that they have quality issues and because of that some of them fail. So in their description they fail not because of improper rating but because of quality. So nobody knows exactly what they mean by “more durable”. And nobody, especially I, trusts what InMotion vaguely describes. I think my grandma would answer the same if I would ask her about MOSFETs. Do you have details about what “more durable mosfets” means? The case is not clear by far. Why should I risk believing InMotion? Who’s gonna pay the bill?

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Paul g

[nosamplesplease]

1 hour ago, Paul g said:

InMotion never said that the new board will have the proper MOSFETs properly rated for the new board.

They only said “more durable mosfets”. Nobody knows what they describe by that. It could be the same as the first ones but with better quality checks. They were saying about the MOSFETs they use now that they have quality issues and because of that some of them fail. So in their description they fail not because of improper rating but because of quality. So nobody knows exactly what they mean by “more durable”. And nobody, especially I, trusts what InMotion vaguely describes. I think my grandma would answer the same if I would ask her about MOSFETs. Do you have details about what “more durable mosfets” means? The case is not clear by far. Why should I risk believing InMotion? Who’s gonna pay the bill?

 

Two point come to mind. 

First: Marketing people often know exactly as much about MOSFETs as your grandma. Regardless of culture. Just the way it is, in my experience engineers could care less what the market wants or says about a product. They just solve problems.

Second: English as a second language. Technical language is difficult in general, much less translating from Chinese(Mandarin, Cantonese, no idea what InMotion works with) to english.

[ien]

I plan to pre-order HT on Saturday.

Also heard that some dealers got (new?) MOSFETs from Inmo 

[supercurio]

Linking The Monopod Show from PET - https://personalelectrictransport.co.uk/

I was a guest here and we talked about the V12 safety & reliability among other things.
It was recorded on January 21 2022, 1 day after I had the opportunity to have the conference call with Inmotion Sales and R&D so there's a bunch of info in there.

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by supercurio

[conecones]

Curious if anyone else has noticed this: the power alarms come on sooner when in regular vs fancier mode. 

Pre-cut out, I turned on fancier mode out of the box and never got any alarms/beeps until the faceplant. After repair, I lowered speed alarm to 50km/h, switched off fancier mode but now I get "Please Repair" or "Overload" (I think?) alarms when braking hard and when accelerating - sometimes not even that hard. Soon as I turn fancier mode back on, no alarms to be heard.

Kind of unnerving, but perhaps it is safer to turn off fancier mode to help limit riding behaviour to be more gentle while we wait for new boards. Please share any similar experiences.

[Steve Evans]

fyi... this vid was posted earlier on Telegram. 

i dont think it implies a new board is available with upgraded mosfets. its just a 'how to'.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by evans036

[Cress]

 

Reference @supercurio and the podcast link posted earlier - It sounds like we can trust that Inmotion has a solution-in-progress for the V12, I'm happy to know the solution is coming,  BUT . . . I'm concerned that Inmotion is not advertising the fact that ALL EARLY PRODUCTION V12 control boards are subject to failure until the original control board is replaced (the whole board, NOT partial replacement of MOSFETS and the spin-test probably doesn't help at all).  

Behavior of the EUC community is similar to private aviation community circa 1920: early pilots trusted an airplane that flew more than they trusted safety notifications.  Some of the tendency to discount safety notifications is still part of aviation.  An Electric Unicycle doesn't look like an airplane but the two machines share a lot in terms of human psychology.

The EUC community should spread the word: MOSFETS configured as power switches ALL have limited life expectancy, are critical to brush-less motors, are a weak link in EVERY EUC and all original V12 motor controllers are subject to sudden failure until they are replaced.  

For what-it's-worth: the choice to use that MOSFET on the original V12 control board was likely made by whoever was responsible for building the original board and not related to the original design.   Chinese engineers are smart.  Manufacturing errors are universal.

[supercurio]

Two new significant cutout to report:

Sinesterw, Spanish rider 
https://www.instagram.com/p/CZz3etXInkR/

Wheel repaired, 4x MOSFET replaced after a first failure using the "tested" MOSFET Inmotion sent to distributors (mine received 20 of them)
Now, 30 km/h crash and injury as shown.

Brendan "Golden Rule"
https://www.facebook.com/groups/inmotionv12/permalink/518482279584031/

V12 ridden 1000km, "done the test 30 times"
wheel died when "hit the curb under my deck"

Your daily reminder that:

• no V12 is safe to ride
• Inmotion's confidence after (any amount of) stress test is misplaced
• Inmotion sending "tested/checked" replacement MOSFETs to distributors for warranty repairs is not helping

I've been keeping in touch with Inmotion after the initial call, with unsatisfactory actual result so far. A new call should happen next week.
What I'm suggesting now is more like a softer replacement program instead of a full blown recall which appear to have very little chance to happen.
Think of it like everybody gets warned of the risks, and all those who feel like they want a board replacement for peace of mind can get one free of charge - no need for a failure first.
But Inmotion would not cover 100% of the costs (shipping wheels back and forth, cost of repair) for these unlike they do for the dead boards, however they might compensate partially by sending accessories like honeycomb pedals.
This should be discussed internally at the moment.

It looks like this middle-ground approach has better chance to succeed, however given these two new failures I am not convinced that anything less than an actual recall would be satisfactory to keep riders safe.

Edited February 11, 2022 by supercurio

[Wolverine]

32 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Two new significant cutout to repor

It brings us back to the starting point all the time. The problem is caused by incorrectly selected power MOSFETs. As long as incorrectly selected power MOSFETs are replaced with equivalent power MOSFETs or if we are given the same boards (working boards) with the same power MOSFETs as the machines already have, nothing will ever change. Unfortunately, it is and will remain a dangerous machine until the manufacturer launches a new board with proper power MOSFETs.

Even large companies with experience make mistakes. The important thing is to either admit the mistake and fix it or pick up the defective product from the customers and return the money.

[jimjam.nyc]

I was under the impression inmotion was commited to new boards with the more durable mosfets to fix this. 

I think the issue is that this may take a few months due to shortages with chips and things.. 

I guess if people want their V12 fixed now, the only solution is to use what is available, which is what borked it in the first place. 

If i had been thrown off a v12 due to busted Mos.. I would be waiting for a new board with the actual solution, i wouldnt send my board in just to have the same thing put right back in place. 

I have a feeling the MOSFETS are blowing due to varying tolerance levels from other components.. This means putting the same mosfets right back on will result in the same thing. 

Some of us are sort of lucky right now and our v12's are hanging stable (For Now). It is possible you may be fine.. But i have to believe if your mosfets blow... slapping new of the same part # will result in the same outcome. 

The stress test provided by inmotion is flawed beyond belief.. Not sure why anyone thought that would yield consistent results.. Humans are performing it, in different conditions with way too many variables to be considered consistent. 

EDIT: Rumors are the s20 is able to be cutout on a pre-prod firmware.. Due to some FW settings. Apparently boards were blowing up from the 126V in the first 3 meters or something.. Apparently they were able to sort of fix this in firmware.. I wonder if INMOTION can do something similar in FW to minimize this risk and have it based off Board Rev. Crap mosfets boards get one firmware.. Stonger boards get another firmware. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by jimjam.nyc

[Cress]

 

Everyone owes @Supercurio 'Thank You' for his time and effort talking with Inmotion.  The experience belongs on a resume regardless of the position or the industry where you apply.

EUC technology evolves in Asia because liability costs are excessive for Western manufacturers.  If Asian EUC manufacturers and Western EUC riders understand their mutual relationship EUC technology will develop faster and better. 

I'm impressed with my V12 and I appreciate the creativity, skills and technical ability at Inmotion that produced my V12. I have some understanding that Inmotion separates electrical engineering staff (consultants?) from the manufacturing/production process and the separation of electrical engineering is how Inmotion could make such a ridiculous choice with MOSFETS.  Gotway/Begode manufacturing produced battery fires, a different problem with a similar cause as Inmotion using the wrong MOSFET.

I like my V12, I'll replace the control board and I'll put thousands of miles on that wheel.  "Thank You" to Inmotion for producing the V12 and I'll replace the control board.

When I was in grade school I constantly rode my bicycle to the Experimental Aircraft Association of America home at Hales Corners, Wisconsin.  The Hales Corners airport, old + new + home-built airplanes together with most of the pilots have re-located.   EUC riders are re-playing experiences I learned from pilots.  You can work with the manufacturer and make airplanes fly better - OR - you can park the airplane. 

[Rawnei]

2 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I was under the impression inmotion was commited to new boards with the more durable mosfets to fix this.

They haven't made any actual commitment yet though, official word is still "looking into it".

[supercurio]

5 hours ago, Wolverine said:

It brings us back to the starting point all the time.

Agree, feels like no progress so far.

4 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I was under the impression inmotion was commited to new boards with the more durable mosfets to fix this. 

They committed to new boards as replacement for the ones that failed, but for everyone else it's up in the air at the moment.

4 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I think the issue is that this may take a few months due to shortages with chips and things.. 

Yes and it tends to 

4 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I guess if people want their V12 fixed now, the only solution is to use what is available, which is what borked it in the first place. 

If i had been thrown off a v12 due to busted Mos.. I would be waiting for a new board with the actual solution, i wouldnt send my board in just to have the same thing put right back in place. 

I have a feeling the MOSFETS are blowing due to varying tolerance levels from other components.. This means putting the same mosfets right back on will result in the same thing. 

Some of us are sort of lucky right now and our v12's are hanging stable (For Now). It is possible you may be fine.. But i have to believe if your mosfets blow... slapping new of the same part # will result in the same outcome. 

So I asked Sinesterw who had the crash on the repaired board, his history is:

• first failure: a step at 15 km/h.
  After 750km ridden with the V12
• second failure: riding at 30 km/h, nothing special, just cut out.
  The MOSFET that failed are the ones that were replaced with "checked" ones sent by Inmotion.
  It could be a coincidence, or it could mean that Inmotion stress test of these MOSFETs to select them degrades them instead. Or something went wrong during the MOSFET swap of the repair.

 

2 hours ago, Cress said:

Everyone owes @Supercurio 'Thank You' for his time and effort talking with Inmotion.  The experience belongs on a resume regardless of the position or the industry where you apply.

EUC technology evolves in Asia because liability costs are excessive for Western manufacturers.  If Asian EUC manufacturers and Western EUC riders understand their mutual relationship EUC technology will develop faster and better. 

I'm impressed with my V12 and I appreciate the creativity, skills and technical ability at Inmotion that produced my V12. I have some understanding that Inmotion separates electrical engineering staff (consultants?) from the manufacturing/production process and the separation of electrical engineering is how Inmotion could make such a ridiculous choice with MOSFETS.  Gotway/Begode manufacturing produced battery fires, a different problem with a similar cause as Inmotion using the wrong MOSFET.

I like my V12, I'll replace the control board and I'll put thousands of miles on that wheel.  "Thank You" to Inmotion for producing the V12 and I'll replace the control board.

When I was in grade school I constantly rode my bicycle to the Experimental Aircraft Association of America home at Hales Corners, Wisconsin.  The Hales Corners airport, old + new + home-built airplanes together with most of the pilots have re-located.   EUC riders are re-playing experiences I learned from pilots.  You can work with the manufacturer and make airplanes fly better - OR - you can park the airplane. 

Thanks for the kind message, appreciated.
At the risk of taking it too literally tho, nobody owes me anything. I'm actually disappointed by the lack of result so far.

I like the comparison with airplane, which tend to be rather reliable regardless of their age today.

 

Since you're mentioning replacement boards, I'd like to pick your mind - all of you.

V12 HS batch 1 & batch 2: has board failure

• Inmotion provides an upgraded, durable replacement V12 HT-like board when available at no cost
• Inmotion pays for shipping costs from/to the repair center and repair

Essentially, no change

V12 HS batch 1 & batch 2: passes the stress test, has no failure

• Inmotion provides the same upgraded board when available at no cost if requested.
• Shipping and repair costs are not covered by Inmotion. Might be at the charge of the customer or shop - case by case.
• Inmotion attempts to compensate when the customer incurs costs by sending free accessory, like Honeycomb pedal - case by case.
• Some customers might choose to keep the wheel as-is despite being fully informed. Up to them

How to call it. Optional replacement program? So far recall has been a dead end IMO, despite this is what I'd like to happen to be the most safe and leave the fewest behind.

 

What do you think?
 

[Paul A]

Maybe sell the V12s.