INMOTION V12

[Richardo]

Has anyone with an EE background checked out the Infineon IPP023N10N5 100V MOSFET data sheet? I hope that would actually have information about the 'durability' of IPP023N10N5's with regard to the test- like how (if?) they actually decay with repeated stress. Or maybe ask the manufacturer if it's not included in the data sheet. I'm not educated enough to actually understand or phrase that question properly.

I feel like that idea is a possibility/meme rather than a fact, but it's gaining so much traction among us. 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Richardo

[Tawpie]

10 minutes ago, Richardo said:

how (if?) they actually decay with repeated stress

Generally, all you'll ever see from the manufacturer is "absolute maximum ratings". Anything beyond that they imply is no bueno, but they don't go on record as to what happens (other than the part might fail).

It's kind of like an airplane that has an absolute max gross takeoff weight. You might get away with a few pounds more, but the manufacturer won't tell you "you can only exceed this 4 times" and after that the wings might break off. The implication is "the wings might break off or the plane might not fly at all or might not fly the way you expected it to anytime your takeoff weight is above the max, even by a few ounces"

Edited January 27, 2022 by Tawpie

[supercurio]

9 hours ago, supercurio said:

So thanks for the reminder @Jeff Earl, I'll do this writeup today after work.

Well, bad prediction; I finished working at 0:30. 😅 Day off tomorrow tho! thanks for your patience.

Edited January 28, 2022 by supercurio

[Chester Copperpot]

I have another bit of speculation.

Many of the cutouts occurred under no load while walking the wheel, not hard breaking and certainly nothing like the stress test.

Most cutouts involved a bounce or physical shock. A walking bounce would generate a voltage spike but would it be anything near hard breaking?

None of the riding cutouts occurred during breaking. 

I presume that the voltage regulation is governed not just by the power circuit, but also by the microprocessor in the touch screen, to achieve all of the tuning and adjustability. 

The touch screen is connected to the power board via pins pressing agains flat plates. Not pin and sleeve, not soldered, not bolted. Just pressure against pinpoint surface area. 

Could the problem be related to a physical jolt interfering with the processor connection, resulting in an irregular voltage spike that damages weaker MOSFETs?

Again, pure speculation. 

[Jeff Earl]

3 hours ago, Chester Copperpot said:

I have another bit of speculation.

Many of the cutouts occurred under no load while walking the wheel, not hard breaking and certainly nothing like the stress test.

Most cutouts involved a bounce or physical shock. A walking bounce would generate a voltage spike but would it be anything near hard breaking?

None of the riding cutouts occurred during breaking. 

I presume that the voltage regulation is governed not just by the power circuit, but also by the microprocessor in the touch screen, to achieve all of the tuning and adjustability. 

The touch screen is connected to the power board via pins pressing agains flat plates. Not pin and sleeve, not soldered, not bolted. Just pressure against pinpoint surface area. 

Could the problem be related to a physical jolt interfering with the processor connection, resulting in an irregular voltage spike that damages weaker MOSFETs?

Again, pure speculation. 

This is an interesting thought (a concern I once had as well), but I think it is unlikely. The pogopins only connect the user switch sensors, touch screen, and the ambient light sensor into the main board. The main board is actually contained inside the control module and is connected to the motor controller board via a ribbon cable.  

Assuming the power and spin-kill switches are configured in a normally open state, an interruption of the circuit at the connection pins would not signal a state change to the main board. (One would also hope that there is some sanity logic in the control algorithm that ignores such spurious input signals when underway at speed) As for the touch screen, it must interface via a serial (digital) signal. Any noise in the digital signal introduced by bouncing at the pins should be detected and discarded by basic digital checksum logic.

The evidence is also that most of the recorded cut-outs have been accompanied with blown MOSFETS, which I think would be unlikely to occur as the result of a spin-kill or power-off event.

So, while the spring-loaded pogopins are less robust than pin-in-socket connectors, I think the implementation on the V12 is done in such a way that it should be inconsequential to safety.

What do the engineering types here think on this matter? Am I missing any subtitles in the implementation?

Edited January 28, 2022 by Jeff Earl

[Tawpie]

In the case of the V12, the documentation provided by the manufacturer of the MOSFET indicates that the part chosen is not appropriate for its use. It's a first finding though, there still may be other areas that need or would benefit from improvement. It's a little bit like: "my wheel won't steer properly...". Once you find the tire is flat you need to fix that first—there still might be a loose pedal hanger, but until you get the flat fixed it's difficult to know if the steering problem is actually due to the loose pedal hanger.

As described, the pogopins seem unrelated but I can imagine if the mainboard CPU suddenly gets bombarded by intermittent connections to the touchscreen, and the firmware isn't properly designed, it might fail to manage the MOSFET drive and something bad happens. There's sort of a hint... one stress tester had their wheel fail the test, but a few days later seemed to have healed itself. The FETs seem fine now, but at the end of the test it seemed like the FETs were blown. Regardless though, the pogopins wouldn't be my first suspect.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Tawpie

[RagingGrandpa]

On 1/27/2022 at 2:21 PM, Richardo said:

Has anyone with an EE background checked out the Infineon IPP023N10N5

Yes. Us nerds had our little party in the thread below

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/26282-inmotion-v12-ht-board-more-durable-mos/page/2/#comment-400138

[EUC Phenomenon]

13 hours ago, Chester Copperpot said:

Many of the cutouts occurred under no load while walking the wheel, not hard breaking and certainly nothing like the stress test.

Most cutouts involved a bounce or physical shock. A walking bounce would generate a voltage spike but would it be anything near hard breaking?

I was thinking along similar lines. That a hard bounce flexed or moved the board, making it touch something inside the casing and made a short circuit.

[mhpr262]

I suspect something along the same lines. My very first proper wheel, an Inmotion V10F from the first series with the grey rubbber insert pedals must have suffered something like that. I had less than 10 kilometers on the brand new wheel when I had to jump off at below walking speed, the wheel gently tipped over onto its side and when I picked it up it was completely dead. I opened up the control board panel and there seemed to be nothing obvious amiss, no smell of burned electronics, no scorch marks, no blackened or scorched parts, no blown fuses.

[Paul g]

      Please be careful when ordering on Aliexpress.
      The danger is you will lose any right of return and refund for a defective expensive product.                    
       As you may well know I wanted to return my V12. When filling the return form on the Aliexpress site the stated weight was 1kg and I could not modify it. Though an “Edit” button was present, the button was not working and I tried many times to pressed it to input the proper weight, with no success. It was a dummy button. It was not just a happening or an internet issue, since all other editing buttons were working properly, and I tried them all.
     Obviously I could not return the wheel since the shipping company would not receive it. Even after using different channels of communication with them I am stuck now with an unwanted product.

     I want you to be aware of this trick.

    The particular seller is Wheel Riders Store, but be aware, any other store on Aliexpress might present the same issue since the return page was a standard Aliexpress return and refund page, and before getting on that page I had to tick an option if the weight of the returning product was over 30kg and/or with dimensions over 50*50*50cm, which was my case ( therefore right then and there they could’ve directed me to the trick page, making their life easier). And I am pretty sure Aliexpress is the one who manages all the returns while the seller pays Aliexpress for the service, so they have efficiencies of scale, just like Amazon.
      While I explained to the seller that the V12 has issues with cutouts because of burning mosfets, and this is a well known thing, they continually denied that the model has issues until this very moment. Quite telling.

    When I let them know the shipping company doesn’t receive the parcel for return because of the stated weight, they said to me they will try to solve the issue with the logistics company but, they declared, with no success. They had advised me to cancel the refund request and try to apply again. After cancelling the refund request I could not reapply for it. Then I contacted the Aliexpress and explained them that I could not return the item because of wrong stated weight. They told me that I cancelled the refund request and therefore they can’t do anything else to help me, and that I should contact the seller for a “negotiation” of the refund and return.
      You can imagine where this goes: I can’t return because of wrong stated weight, the way to make it work is to reapply, to reapply you must cancel, if you cancel is not possible to reapply, I must renegotiate with seller for a possible refund, the seller always denied it is any problem with the wheel, therefore what to negotiate??? 
     Take care with them.
    Please let me know if you also had this or similar issue on Aliexpress.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Paul g

[Paradox]

10 minutes ago, Paul g said:

Take care with them.
    Please let me know if you also had this or similar issue on Aliexpress.

Thank you for this posting.  I have had a wheel in my basket on AliExpress for a few weeks.  I just have not been able to pull the trigger.  It was also from Wheel Riders store.  I will not order from them or AliExpress until I have read several successful purchases. 

[Paradox]

22 minutes ago, Paul g said:

 You can imagine where this goes: I can’t return because of wrong stated weight, the way to make it work is to reapply, to reapply you must cancel, if you cancel is not possible to reapply, I must renegotiate with seller for a possible refund, the seller always denied it is any problem with the wheel, therefore what to negotiate???

Have you tried to dispute the charge with your credit card company?

[Funky]

22 minutes ago, Paradox said:

Thank you for this posting.  I have had a wheel in my basket on AliExpress for a few weeks.  I just have not been able to pull the trigger.  It was also from Wheel Riders store.  I will not order from them or AliExpress until I have read several successful purchases. 

Don't buy it from Aliexpress! Sure you will get your wheel.. BUT You can forget any warranty same time! You pay for item there, not warranty.

34 minutes ago, Paul g said:

      Please be careful when ordering on Aliexpress.
      The danger is you will loose any right of return and refund for a defective expensive product.                    
       As you may well know I wanted to return my V12. When filling the return form on the Aliexpress site the stated weight was 1kg and I could not modify it. Though an “Edit” button was present, the button was not working and I tried many times to pressed it to input the proper weight, with no success. It was a dummy button. It was not just a happening or an internet issue, since all other editing buttons were working properly, and I tried them all.
     Obviously I could not return the wheel since the shipping company would not receive it. Even after using different channels of communication with them I am stuck now with an unwanted product.

     I want you to be aware of this trick.

    The particular seller is Wheel Riders Store, but be aware, any other store on Aliexpress might present the same issue since the return page was a standard Aliexpress return and refund page, and before getting on that page I had to tick an option if the weight of the returning product was over 30kg and/or with dimensions over 50*50*50cm, which was my case ( therefore right then and there they could’ve directed me to the trick page, making their life easier). And I am pretty sure Aliexpress is the one who manages all the returns while the seller pays Aliexpress for the service, so they have efficiencies of scale, just like Amazon.
      While I explained to the seller that the V12 has issues with cutouts because of burning mosfets, and this is a well known thing, they continually denied that the model has issues until this very moment. Quite telling.

    When I let them know the shipping company doesn’t receive the parcel for return because of the stated weight, they said to me they will try to solve the issue with the logistics company but, they declared, with no success. They had advised me to cancel the refund request and try to apply again. After cancelling the refund request I could not reapply for it. Then I contacted the Aliexpress and explained them that I could not return the item because of wrong stated weight. They told me that I cancelled the refund request and therefore they can’t do anything else to help me, and that I should contact the seller for a “negotiation” of the refund and return.
      You can imagine where this goes: I can’t return because of wrong stated weight, the way to make it work is to reapply, to reapply you must cancel, if you cancel is not possible to reapply, I must renegotiate with seller for a possible refund, the seller always denied it is any problem with the wheel, therefore what to negotiate??? 
     Take care with them.
    Please let me know if you also had this or similar issue on Aliexpress.

At least you have learned a expensive lesson. Seller telling you to "cancel" refund..... Do i have to tell you something more? Isn't that a red flag 101.

That's why i don't buy anything more than ~100$ there. You pay for item. After you get it, that's it. You can do what ever you want whit it. Because there is no warranty. (Even if they tell, because of law they should have warranty, but they don't.)

Also it's a lot of hassle to deal with them. Even over 5$ items..

Item description vs what you get = easy win for full refund and so, if they send something different and such.

Ps. My whole family have ordered over 1000+ things from AliExpress. So please don't buy there if you want warranty.  

Edited January 30, 2022 by Funky
Family

[Paul g]

3 minutes ago, Paradox said:

Have you tried to dispute the charge with your credit card company?

I am thinking about that, but as with all things, opening a dispute with my bank it might come with other disadvantages. Usually the bank is the one that would be forced by law to foot the bill, than the bank will take on me in their way, which in the end might be worse. So I am not sure I want that.

[Funky]

8 minutes ago, Paul g said:

I am thinking about that, but as with all things, opening a dispute with my bank it might come with other disadvantages. Usually the bank is the one that would be forced by law to foot the bill, than the bank will take on me in their way, which in the end might be worse. So I am not sure I want that.

I read something similar "Here" where guy bought a wheel from Aliexpress, and wanted a refund.. (He sent his wheel back doh..) And they did not want to refund. After he included bank help, after 8 months he got money hack.

Could help. Your choice.

It's their job for one, at the bank. Can change banks later if need be..

Edited January 30, 2022 by Funky

[Paradox]

15 minutes ago, Paul g said:

Usually the bank is the one that would be forced by law to foot the bill,

The banks have the muscle to apply pressure to both AliExpress and Wheel Riders.  You pay fees for this protection in either monthly interest or annual fee.  Everyone's situation is different but if it were me in this situation I would do all I could to get my money back.  Most sellers know some people are sheep and will just accept the loss. 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Paradox

[supercurio]

From my friend's experience, most AliExpress sellers were alright to send replacement boards for burned ones. Sometimes reasonably quickly (not fast) sometimes kind of slow, but most notably not being too picky, like some other sellers are beyond a certain distance ridden or rain (therefore rather arranging in comparison)

However an actual return, for repair or refund for anything shipped from China directly as well as dropshipping from local warehouse, I think you can essentially forget about it. Partial refund and hard bargaining will be the furthest it'll go.

Edited January 30, 2022 by supercurio

[Paul g]

26 minutes ago, supercurio said:

From my friend's experience, most AliExpress sellers were alright to send replacement boards for burned ones. Sometimes reasonably quickly (not fast) sometimes kind of slow, but most notably not being too picky, like some other sellers are beyond a certain distance ridden or rain (therefore rather arranging in comparison)

However an actual return, for repair or refund for anything shipped from China directly as well as dropshipping from local warehouse, I think you can essentially forget about it. Partial refund and hard bargaining will be the furthest it'll go.

This doesn’t quite fits the “Free return” claim one can find on the Aliexpress site, isn’t it? 

[nosamplesplease]

Sorry to hear about the chunk of change that seems to be hung up.

Try with the bank for sure, this is too much money to eat. If you have to "negotiate"with your bank, put it to them as a safety issue, play the sympathy card, put on the water works. Hell, tell them it's for your disabled grandma. Whatever it takes.

You were lied to, cheated, and stolen from. Sounds like those are the rules of engagement.

I like to think of AliExpress like a flea market(still, flea markets were awesome last century, I wonder what happened....)

But then again, there are deals to be had.

[enaon]

not that is of any use now, it's best practice to escalate the issue for aliexpress to step in and resolve it if the seller is giving you pain, and of cource one should never cancel the dispute. 

[conecones]

5 hours ago, Paul g said:

      Please be careful when ordering on Aliexpress.
      The danger is you will lose any right of return and refund for a defective expensive product.                    
       As you may well know I wanted to return my V12. When filling the return form on the Aliexpress site the stated weight was 1kg and I could not modify it. Though an “Edit” button was present, the button was not working and I tried many times to pressed it to input the proper weight, with no success. It was a dummy button. It was not just a happening or an internet issue, since all other editing buttons were working properly, and I tried them all.
     Obviously I could not return the wheel since the shipping company would not receive it. Even after using different channels of communication with them I am stuck now with an unwanted product.

     I want you to be aware of this trick.

    The particular seller is Wheel Riders Store, but be aware, any other store on Aliexpress might present the same issue since the return page was a standard Aliexpress return and refund page, and before getting on that page I had to tick an option if the weight of the returning product was over 30kg and/or with dimensions over 50*50*50cm, which was my case ( therefore right then and there they could’ve directed me to the trick page, making their life easier). And I am pretty sure Aliexpress is the one who manages all the returns while the seller pays Aliexpress for the service, so they have efficiencies of scale, just like Amazon.
      While I explained to the seller that the V12 has issues with cutouts because of burning mosfets, and this is a well known thing, they continually denied that the model has issues until this very moment. Quite telling.

    When I let them know the shipping company doesn’t receive the parcel for return because of the stated weight, they said to me they will try to solve the issue with the logistics company but, they declared, with no success. They had advised me to cancel the refund request and try to apply again. After cancelling the refund request I could not reapply for it. Then I contacted the Aliexpress and explained them that I could not return the item because of wrong stated weight. They told me that I cancelled the refund request and therefore they can’t do anything else to help me, and that I should contact the seller for a “negotiation” of the refund and return.
      You can imagine where this goes: I can’t return because of wrong stated weight, the way to make it work is to reapply, to reapply you must cancel, if you cancel is not possible to reapply, I must renegotiate with seller for a possible refund, the seller always denied it is any problem with the wheel, therefore what to negotiate??? 
     Take care with them.
    Please let me know if you also had this or similar issue on Aliexpress.

This is not limited to Aliexpress, but any online (even local retail) businesses where the item you are buying is large, heavy and expensive. There is no such thing as "free return" for these types of items no matter where you buy it from, and again, not limited to EUC's. You should expect the seller to do everything in their power to not take the product back unless it is broken and cannot be repaired. The only exceptions are places like Costco, Amazon, Walmart, etc., and please understand they take huge losses to accommodate this policy. I have worked in retail and the amount of customers abusing this kind of "Free Return" return policy is surprising. When someone buys a $3,000 leather couch, puts it in their house for a week and then tries to return it in a shopping cart without the box, very few retailers will accept. Now imagine the retailer being in China. I'm not saying you are one of these customers, this is just an example for you imagine the perspective of the retailer. I would not be too upset in your position if your V12 arrived in working condition.

Your current options now depend on this:
1. Does your V12 work? Does it pass the spin test? If so, sell it locally and you can break even/take minimal losses.

2. If it is broken, you should be able to negotiate free replacement parts from the seller. Repair it yourself or get some help. Once fixed, sell locally and break even/take minimal losses.

IMO it is not worth the time to continue arguing with the seller/Aliexpress or explain to your bank for a credit card return. Just sell it locally.

[Rawnei]

I don't think it makes sense to talk about AliExpress as one entity, it's a storefront with different sellers so you will get different experience depending on where you buy from, some resellers will have better afters sales and honor warranty issues better than others, in worst case you use the dispute system that's when AliExpress steps in to intermediate but it comes with a time limit for how long you can open a dispute after receiving the goods.

Inherently though buying directly from Chinese stores is a gamble if you are counting on strong after sales support.

Sending a whole wheel back sounds very tricky as they have their methods of sending it to you cheaply in the first place so you should never count on being able to send it back.

[Cress]

For interest, and should be confirmed directly with the vendor who sold a batch 1 / batch 2 wheel:  My understanding is that Inmotion will supply updated controllers for all batch 1 / batch 2 wheels. 

If Inmotion doesn't promote availability of replacement controllers the EUC community, IMO, is responsible to itself for advising that all batch 1 / batch 2 V12 controllers are subject to sudden, unpredictable failure and must be replaced. 

EUC's develop with the advantage of unregulated manufacturing while the EUC community suffers the disadvantages of the same, unregulated manufacturing.  We should tell EUC manufacturers we appreciate the role manufacturers have in development of EUCs.

The future is going to include a lot more EUCs – I wonder what they’ll look like?

Edited January 31, 2022 by Cress

[nosamplesplease]

34 minutes ago, Cress said:

...

The future is going to include a lot more EUCs – I wonder what they’ll look like?

Expensive.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Cress said:

 

The future is going to include a lot more EUCs – I wonder what they’ll look like?

Worse build/control quality. Bigger, heavier, expensive, not real "last mileage" wheels. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Funky