YZpower-450 (same as stock charger) killed my Sherman

[null]

Deleted because I do not wish to contribute to a forum that accepts racism.

Edited July 6 by null

[Mango]

I feel your frustration. I can’t go a day without riding my Sherman. Any downtime definitely sucks!

 

I routinely charge at 10amps without issues but I charge with the official Leaperkim chargers. I simply don’t trust non-branded non-official chargers since you cannot verify the internals are the same and if the Leaperkim chargers have different electrical and electronic components purpose built for their wheels.

 

I don’t understand what you mean when you say “stock” chargers. Did this charger ship with your wheel?

 

Here are my dual chargers, these I consider stock since they are Leaperkim branded and their models are Veteran-450 specifically. I do believe their manual states you should only charge using their official chargers. What is odd is the polarity is switched (red circles) on the illustrationson the chargers.

[houseofjob]

@Mango FYI, there is literally almost no real "stock" charger for any EUC, with maaaaaayyyyybe the exception of Ninebots (which look the most proprietary down to their proprietary plugs); you can like 99.9% trace back the generic charger company / model XX EUC company is using, and Veteran is no exception, esp. given their Gotway roots.

 

@null Damn, that sucks , but thanks for the FYI, I rarely use that stock charger, but def not gonna now; just keep it for future sale to make OEM. 

 

That said, though pricier, for peace of mind, you might want to start exploring the world of real quality made, multi-voltage selectable chargers, albeit, you need to be handy with a soldering iron in order to custom the plug to EUC spec (100V Gotway/Vet is GX16-5 1(+) 5(-); double-pinned ala eWheels Vets could be something like extra 2(+) and 4(-), but don't hold me to all this, I would double-check yourself with a multimeter).

I love my programmable Grin Cycle Satiator 360W 72V 5A (selectable voltages up to 24S / 100V, although 100V will limit max current to 3.6A due to the 360W cap). Though pricey, it's built like a tank, and completely silent and fan-less (the whole outer shell is a heatsink).

And my next purchase is going to be a Chargery C10325 V2.0 1500W charger, selectable up to 24S / 100V, which means max current is a little under 15A at 100V, perfect coupling with a J1772 PEV adapter and charging up at an EV Level 2 station (although reaching 15A is only advisable if your Vet is double-pin wired at each charge port, and you use a splitter to divide the current to both charge ports from the Chargery charger).

[houseofjob]

1 hour ago, null said:

The chargery is heavy, but less than I thought.

Haven't found a 15A 24S charger that is lighter or smaller, but if you do, let me know!

[houseofjob]

10 minutes ago, null said:

There probably aren’t, but if I’m stuck at 10A it’s a bit on the heavy side. Could be worth it to avoid killing the controller board again though..

Yes, but all the other options are typically Chinese-made and of similar, cheap build quality to the Vet stock charger unfortunately.  Plus, I don't believe I've seen even those 10A 24S chargers go lower than 2kg(?) (could be wrong)

I guess the ability to do 100V with quality means weight(?) (remembering that early Gotway 3A 100V chargers were riddled with issues probably because the components weren't robust enough for 24S).

Edited January 25, 2021 by houseofjob

[fbhb]

@null I'm so sorry this has happened to you too, as it is exactly what happened to me in pretty much every detail and I also see that you had linked to my first reference about this problem in your 3rd post (only difference is my charger is actually Leaperkim branded - NOT that it means anything whatsoever as they are all made by the same "cheap quality" factory!)   

I have just fixed the broken links to the original post I made back on November 21st last year and since then I have been waiting patiently for the "Slow Boat from China" to get my replacement control board and charger shipped here to New Zealand. 

Finally, after 2 months of waiting the 2 warranty items have arrived courtesy of communication with my seller and their lengthy communication with Veteran themselves, to confirm what needed to be replaced! 

Rather than hi-jacking your thread my intention has been to create a New topic of my own once I had done the control board swap and several "Test Charges" to make sure All is well with the New gear!  (But that's gonna be another one of my very lengthy stories, when I get around to it!) 

I am more than happy to answer any of your queries or questions here though and help you out in any way possible in the meantime!

Edited January 25, 2021 by fbhb

[fbhb]

1 hour ago, null said:

I guess splitting the shell (argh) could be an occasion to install doubled GX16s.

If you are referring to: "splitting the shell" only in order to install the New control board when it finally arrives, I was fortunately able to do it without the need for a Full strip down!  

I have taken photos during my control board install explaining a small mod necessary to allow easy removal of the control board. 

It will be definitely be part of my Topic on this dodgy charger issue and as you commented yourself, I also want to bring attention to these failures to help/warn other Sherman owners too!

Edited January 25, 2021 by fbhb

[houseofjob]

4 hours ago, null said:

You are right, besides the weight per Amp isn't bad. I guess splitting the shell (argh) could be an occasion to install doubled GX16s. As long as stable that would be great, I love fast normal charging.

It would be nice of the manufacturers could switch to some seriously beefier charging plugs and circuits.

Ah no, I meant the double-pinning each GX16 port if you wanted to do more than 5A per charge port (thus max 15A from the Chargery charger), since GX16 single pin runs the port hot above 5A.

If you just want 10A, you can leave the ports alone, and just DIY a Y splitter so the 10A selected from the Chargery charger is evenly distributed, 5A per charge port.

[Adel]

Speaking of Veteran stock chargers (Leaperkim), mine makes this periodic clicking noise along with LED flicker. Is that something to be concerned about, it looks like this may be typical of Veteran stock chargers.

 

 

[Seba]

20 hours ago, houseofjob said:

FYI, there is literally almost no real "stock" charger for any EUC, with maaaaaayyyyybe the exception of Ninebots (which look the most proprietary down to their proprietary plugs)

Actually, Ninebot chargers are also manufactured by 3rd company. In case of Z10 charger it's "Manufactured for Segway [by] ChingMi (Beijing) Technology Co., Ltd.". Also "stock" charger for Ninebot One S2 is also "Manufactured for Ninebot [by] Shenzen Xiguanyuda Power Of Science And Technology Co., Ltd". Actually it seems that there are just few companies that manufacture chargers for all EUC manufacturers. For example Jin Xin Yu Power (Shenzen) Supply Co., Ltd. is supplying chargers for Gotway and King Song.

More, if you take a look at the photo below, you'll see lot of common between Ninebot and Gotway charger. In both cases model name starts with XVE, enclosure is identical, also code located on the bottom starts with XV- followed by 10 digits. We all know that Chinese companies tends to change registered names very often, so it may be the same company under different names.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Seba

[houseofjob]

4 hours ago, null said:

Chargery in the shopping basket, cozying there a bit due to the price. 

LOL same, I've had it in my basket for over a year 

 

3 hours ago, Adel said:

Speaking of Veteran stock chargers (Leaperkim), mine makes this periodic clicking noise along with LED flicker. Is that something to be concerned about, it looks like this may be typical of Veteran stock chargers.

Might be a wire catching slightly at the fans, I would open and see, it's a super easy fix. 

The flicker I dunno. I know some of these cheapo Chinese stock chargers have very uneven power delivery when measuring with a volt meter.

 

1 hour ago, Seba said:

Actually, Ninebot chargers are also manufactured by 3rd company. In case of Z10 charger it's "Manufactured for Segway [by] ChingMi (Beijing) Technology Co., Ltd.". Also "stock" charger for Ninebot One S2 is also "Manufactured for Ninebot [by] Shenzen Xiguanyuda Power Of Science And Technology Co., Ltd". Actually it seems that there are just few companies that manufacture chargers for all EUC manufacturers. For example Jin Xin Yu Power (Shenzen) Supply Co., Ltd. is supplying chargers for Gotway and King Song.

More, if you take a look at the photo below, you'll see lot of common between Ninebot and Gotway charger. In both cases model name starts with XVE, enclosure is identical, also code located on the bottom starts with XV- followed by 10 digits. We all know that Chinese companies tends to change registered names very often, so it may be the same company under different names.

Nice thanks! I figured as much, but no longer have Ninebots and their chargers to check.

Did you possibly find out what the name of the plug for the Z10 was by chance? Still one of the remaining mysteries of EUC 

[AtlasP]

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

Did you possibly find out what the name of the plug for the Z10 was by chance? Still one of the remaining mysteries of EUC 

Still unknown, but apparently specifically the Ninebot Mini Plus (not to be confused with any of its other incarnations of miniLites/miniPros/etc, most of which use a simple barrel plug) uses the same connector, which can be seen (among other places) in the EcoDrift teardown: https://ecodrift.ru/2017/08/04/razbiraem-minisegvej-xiaomi-ninebot-mini-plus/

This isn't an answer, but it's another potential lead on figuring it out, as likely they sold an order of magnitude more Mini Plus's compared to Zxx EUCs, so there's probably more discussion/sleuthing to be found/done through that avenue.

Edit: also in the absence of being able to identify the specific connector and if someone wanted one for their own project, it would probably be easier/cheaper to find/get a Mini Plus charger to canibalize over a Zxx EUC charger.

Edited January 25, 2021 by AtlasP

[houseofjob]

1 minute ago, AtlasP said:

Still unknown, but apparently specifically the Ninebot Mini Plus (not to be confused with any of its other incarnations, most of which use a simple barrel plug) uses the same connector, which can be seen (among other places) in the EcoDrift teardown: https://ecodrift.ru/2017/08/04/razbiraem-minisegvej-xiaomi-ninebot-mini-plus/

This isn't an answer, but it's another potential lead on figuring it out, as likely they sold an order of magnitude more Mini Plus's compared to Zxx EUCs, so there's probably more discussion/sleuthing to be found/done through that avenue.

This is crazy we're like years later after the Z10 release and still no one knows the name to this damn connector *smh

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

This is crazy we're like years later after the Z10 release and still no one knows the name to this damn connector *smh

I suspect it was unique (proprietary) to Ninebot rather than a commercially available plug, hence no name for it.

As for YZ Power chargers, I haven't had issues with either the Z10 or 84v and 100v GW fast chargers I have, nor have anyone else I know that has bought them for GW's etc. Could the Veteran problems be associated with the charging circuit within the wheel rather than the charger? Could the 'diode' or other part of the system cause problems?

[Planemo]

Just out of interest, is there only one board in the YZ 5A chargers that have gone pop? My 6A one has two identical boards. If there is only one, maybe them screwing 5A out of it is a bit much?

[xSAMCOx]

7 hours ago, houseofjob said:

This is crazy we're like years later after the Z10 release and still no one knows the name to this damn connector *smh

Ebay one can buy loose Power plugs with the wires on the Z10 to use on chargers.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Replace-Power-Charger-Line-Cable-For-Xiaomi-Ninebot-Mini-Plus-Z8-Z10-Scooter-BM/203156381908?hash=item2f4d1060d4:g:JPUAAOSw8MRfmOlT

Edited January 26, 2021 by xSAMCOx

[Matthieu Thegrey]

On 1/24/2021 at 9:50 PM, null said:

Short story short: just charging with my barely used yzpower-450 (the same as stock charger) and bam, pop sound and burnt smell.

Not only did that POS charger break, it killed the Sherman logic board which now won’t charge and only displays “e char” error message. AFAIK nothing can be done other than replacing the board. So I’m looking at 300€+ in parts, +2 months shipping +taking everything apart to swap the board, great

This isn’t the first case (and probably not the last); not only is the (stock) charger shit, the logic board dies from it.. I wouldn’t use the stock charger (or other yzpower-450) until we get to know if some are worse than others.

Are there any 100.8V chargers of decent quality?

 

I have this same model of charger in 84v for my MSX since a few years. I used to be happy, it was my road trip charger, it was not unusal that the battery had 3 huge charges a day during hot summer with this charger.
But I noticed that my MSX has a much lower autonomy after these few years, what did not happen with my other wheels. I noticed too that this charger was charging actually quite fast, even in end of charge, and to the top 84V if i left it enough time... Maybe it could be related, maybe not.

[houseofjob]

9 hours ago, xSAMCOx said:

Ebay one can buy loose Power plugs with the wires on the Z10 to use on chargers.

Urm, I'm not looking for a replacement  I'm looking for what the name of the connector is.

[houseofjob]

16 hours ago, Planemo said:

I suspect it was unique (proprietary) to Ninebot rather than a commercially available plug, hence no name for it.

Kind of doubt it's proprietary, now that @Seba points out it's a generic charger.

We've never seen a proprietary charger connect in all of EUC, it's always been a borrowed standard: medical (LEMO for Ninebot 15S); aviation (GX16/GX12 variants for multiple brands); laptop (Lenovo for 84V IM & KS), etc. 

 

16 hours ago, Planemo said:

As for YZ Power chargers, I haven't had issues with either the Z10 or 84v and 100v GW fast chargers I have, nor have anyone else I know that has bought them for GW's etc. Could the Veteran problems be associated with the charging circuit within the wheel rather than the charger? Could the 'diode' or other part of the system cause problems?

Really doubt it's the Veteran wheel-side issue. I predominantly charge with my Grin Cycle Satiator and many many "fast charges" in, have had zero issues.

Plus, the first YZ Power 100V chargers made for Gotway 100V (they've never done the Z10 or any 84V wheel chargers, those are different manufacturers as @Seba stated here), were riddled with issues: most of our local NYC 100V early adopters back circa 2017-18, with that first 100V EUC in the Monster (pre-V2), many of those guys had their 3A chargers blow out (I believe they've improved the unit since then, as a result).

In the charger-making world, they take the same model charger and configure it to a wide range of voltages on request since, in the end, the charger is theoretically limited by just the power watts. So the "stock" Gotway 100V model YZPOWER-450 (450 Watts cap) is offered in 12.6V 20A, 29.4V 10A, 42V 8A, 67.2V 4A, 84V 4A, and the familiar 100.8V 3A (obviously the amps go down the higher voltage you configure, W = V*A).

The only problem with the above is whether the circuitry components are rated for, and can actually handle the higher end of voltage and/or amps. I kinda doubt this, as, until 100V EUC's, I've never heard of any common use case for 24S 100V, plus this charger model was created to be light and cheap and streamlined for multi-application usage, and they most likely are saying it can do 100V because of the theoretical 450 Watt capacity + math, without ever testing in real life, as is the typical 差不多 / Chàbùduō / "Good enough" China mentality/culture.

You can see here that the relatively "new" / alternate Veteran YZPOWER-450 / VETERAN-450 "stock" charger is no different in the streamline approach as the Gotway 100V YZPOWER-450, not to mention it's trying to pull higher amps at the same 450 Watt cap (and I wanna say the amp draw from this Vet charger did not hold consistent, but would have to rig up my Charge RX next time I have it with me).

IMHO really think this is just new charger config problem that will get ironed out down the line, but really sucks for early adopters like @null to get their wheel-side board fried as a result.

Edited January 26, 2021 by houseofjob

[null]

Yes I dont have as much oversight as @houseofjob here, but just the fact that of four YZ chargers pictured (mine and @fbhb ), none have the same combination of capacitors, doesn't seem very serious to me.

BTW speaking of chargers and Sherman, the Chargery sadly do not do balancing according to @EUC Addict

And speaking of chargers it might be worth it to make a "Chargers" thread in "General" as many are looking at faster chargers with the current crop of large batteries.

Edited January 26, 2021 by null

[houseofjob]

10 minutes ago, null said:

Yes I dont have as much oversight as @houseofjob here, but just the fact that of four YZ chargers pictured (mine and @fbhb ), none have the same combination of capacitors, smells of random production to me.

Not to mention, YZ Power is a Shenzhen company, and those companies widely use component supplies from recycled e-waste, etc., and the typical charger-buying consumer is probably not going to tear apart their charger and even know what to nitpick on the circuitry, if they're ordering pre-configured chargers.

 

10 minutes ago, null said:

BTW speaking of chargers and Sherman, the Chargery sadly do not do balancing according to @EUC Addict

 

This is common for "fast chargers", say ~7A and above, since they probably don't have the sophistication to change form Constant Amps charging to Constant Voltage charging at the last 1-2V that you speak of for balancing.

But I'm surprised the C10325 can't do CV charge effectively, will have to ask the NYC guys and Archee that Shane is referring to.

Either way, it's a moot point, just use something like a proven Gotway 100V 3A, which will get you that last 1-2V / CV balancing.

Also, FYI, my Cycle Satiator balances, no issues, esp since it has that last 1-2V CV trickle charge programming built-in.

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by houseofjob

[houseofjob]

@null I think those NYC guys using Chargery charger might not be using or configuring their units correctly, as the Chargery manual (page 9 of 19) states the unit has Constant Voltage capability:

Quote

1. c)  Set up end current. At CV phase (constant voltage), when the charging current is lower than

   settings , the charger stop charging and the battery fully charged, display KEEP charge status. The end current is a percentage (1-60%) of charge current setting . Such as the charge current setting is 10A, end current is setup to 10%, the end current is 1A.

Although, Archee is pretty electronics savvy, I'm surprised he wouldn't have picked up on this.

Edited January 26, 2021 by houseofjob

[null]

Nice find!

I wouldn't particularly use a 15A charger for balancing, but for the price it ought to. If used for travel it would be better not to lug around as second charger just for that.

As for higher Amp chargers and balancing, it seems the Voltage drop when cutting charge make it difficult for the charger to do that phase. I always lowered the rate manually toward end of charge as it would either cut at 100% and fall to 95% (just example) or go in a loop where it would start up again after registering 95% etc. I dont know the technical detail but it acts as if it was a pressure. (anyway, digressing  )

(Anyhow, very interested if you hear anything more)

(Otherwise looking at the C1000 / X1200 @Seba used, which probably isn't too dodgy or he would have mentioned it (still Shenzhen though))

Edited January 26, 2021 by null

[houseofjob]

6 minutes ago, null said:

Nice find!

I wouldn't particularly use a 15A charger for balancing, but for the price it ought to. If used for travel it would be better not to lug around as second charger just for that.

As for higher Amp chargers and balancing, it seems the Voltage drop when cutting charge make it difficult for the charger to do that phase. I always lowered the rate manually toward end of charge as it would either cut at 100% and fall to 95% (just example)or go in a loop where it would start up again after registering 95% etc. I dont know the technical detail but it acts as if it was a pressure. (anyway, digressing  )

I believe the way it works is that a charger charges at constant Amps for the majority of the charge, but when you reach that last ~1% threshold, the amps start to fall below 1A, which most chargers do not have settings for. 

So for cell balancing, the charger needs to switch to constant Voltage, so the charger will continue until it reaches that max Voltage, regardless of the amps, to reach max charge and thus balanced for EUC.

So, according to this Chargery manual, since their CV mode ends charge at 10% of the amp value, you wanna set it to 1A at the end to get the max .1A trickle charge.

The Cycle Satiator seems to be more precise, it let’s you setup and enter in precisely that last CV trickle charge  (trickle start V, end V, amps), in it’s menu (see page 13).

[shellac]

What’s the prevailing opinion on the rapid charger that ewheels sells for the Veteran? Better quality than the stock charger?

https://www.ewheels.com/product/100-8v-4a-rapid-charger-gotway-msx-nikola-monster/