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Seba

84 V 10 A regulated, universal charger

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Thank you very much, even if the standard adjustable 5A charger is enough for me, I certainly feel the urge to rebuild the Charger. :efefe00999:

Is the fan load dependent or does it always run on full load?

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12 minutes ago, buell47 said:

Is the fan load dependent or does it always run on full load?

There is a circuit that controls fan, LED and relay. When charging current is below some small value (about 0.2 A, but it may be adjusted using VR3) LED switches to green, fan goes off and relay turns off output voltage. During charging fan is always on at its full speed.

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Brilliant :)

Would love to see if someone could do the same with a 58.8v 6A Wate charger, as I have one incoming for my Z10. I fear too much will be different between the two chargers to just copy the above.

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2 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Brilliant :)

Would love to see if someone could do the same with a 58.8v 6A Wate charger, as I have one incoming for my Z10. I fear too much will be different between the two chargers to just copy the above.

Almost every charger can be made adjustable (both current limit and output voltage), as there are adjustable resistors (trimpot) to calibrate the charger in factory. Of course each charger circuit is different, so there is no universal method. Adding meter unit is also quite easy.

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would it be easier to use a pre-made universal charger and simply make the adapter connection? I just need an XLR3 adapter 

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46 minutes ago, niwrad said:

would it be easier to use a pre-made universal charger and simply make the adapter connection? I just need an XLR3 adapter 

The problem is that it's hard to find a 10A charger with adjustable current that allows monitoring of charging process (voltage, amperage, charge, time, power and temperature) and is light enough to carry it in a backpack.

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1 hour ago, niwrad said:

would it be easier to use a pre-made universal charger and simply make the adapter connection? I just need an XLR3 adapter 

As Seba says. But even though it might be easier to find one in 6A format (as mine is), I have no problem fiddling with soldering/electronics plus my Wate charger was only £43. A parameter module is about £8 and trimpots/resistors etc are pennies. I doubt I could buy an adjustable charger with all this for less than £100~£150?

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1 hour ago, Seba said:

Almost every charger can be made adjustable (both current limit and output voltage), as there are adjustable resistors (trimpot) to calibrate the charger in factory. Of course each charger circuit is different, so there is no universal method. Adding meter unit is also quite easy.

I will read and re-read your above conversion after I have got my charger and had a look inside. If I think I can transfer your method above I will give it a go :)

 

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2 hours ago, Seba said:

The problem is that it's hard to find a 10A charger with adjustable current that allows monitoring of charging process (voltage, amperage, charge, time, power and temperature) and is light enough to carry it in a backpack.

What are the dimensions and weight?

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Just now, buell47 said:

What are the dimensions and weight?

2.1 kg and 22 cm x 12 cm x 7 cm with cables detached.

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12 hours ago, Seba said:

The problem is that it's hard to find a 10A charger with adjustable current that allows monitoring of charging process (voltage, amperage, charge, time, power and temperature) and is light enough to carry it in a backpack.

There's a 8amp one here https://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-satiator.html. I'm currently using the high voltage one but it's limited to 5 amps to limit heat output. not only can i carry it in my backpack but it's also rain proof which is a nice plus 

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For the Satatior 7208 103 V version, the current is limited not to exceed 360W.

So for 84V battery, the current is 4,5A when the battery voltage is 80V.

But without fan, if need be, I put a second charger in paralle (GW charger 2.8 A)

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4 hours ago, niwrad said:

There's a 8amp one here https://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-satiator.html. I'm currently using the high voltage one but it's limited to 5 amps to limit heat output. not only can i carry it in my backpack but it's also rain proof which is a nice plus

And only £355. I'll take two please :)

 

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On 9/30/2019 at 1:53 PM, Seba said:

PARTS NEEDED

  1. Electrony C1000 84V charger unit - http://ecitypower.com/index.php/en/products-4/c1000-900watts-charger

Hi Seba, 

Am I just blind, or is there no direct way to buy the charger?

I would like to have a 10A charger for on the way and can do without the conversions for the time being, because it should only run at full power on my 16X.

Where did you buy it and do I still have to calibrate the voltage, or do I get 84.2V out there already? 

Can I simply connect 2x Lenovo connectors in parallel at the output? 

Thx 

Frank 

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Thank you for everything you have done for the EUC community Seba, you are a genius! 

20191022_004239.thumb.jpg.e1e85d53577b26c39494ff3dd01197cf.jpg

Your post inspired me to adjust one of the chargers in my dual charger set-up to a lower cut off voltage, this way I will have fast charging, slow 100% charging to balance the battery pack, and slow safe charging to 85% for everyday use without too much hassle.

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8 hours ago, buell47 said:

Am I just blind, or is there no direct way to buy the charger?

No, there is no direct way to buy this charger from manufacturer.

8 hours ago, buell47 said:

Where did you buy it and do I still have to calibrate the voltage, or do I get 84.2V out there already? 

I bought it from one of Polish internet stores, probably from nexun.pl, however they don't have it in stock nor in offer as for now. Normally you don't have to calibrate anything as charger comes already calibrated from factory. However it's always good idea to verify its output voltage with trustworthy multimeter.

It's also worth mentioning that almost every charger can be modified in a way I described in my post. Usually you'll find three trimming potentiometers on the charger board. One is used to calibrate output voltage at the factory. Second is used to set up output current limit. Third is used to set current threshold that will shut down cooling fan and signal that chargin is finished. In some chargers it is also used to switch off relay that disconnects charger from EUC. It's however advisable not to use this feature, because this prevents battery from balancing.

Volt/ampmeter can be added to any charger if you only can find 12V supply voltage. It's not a problem, as there is separate circuit to supply the cooling fan. You can use this circuit to supply power to the meter. To add voltage regulation you just replace trimpot (and probably one of the resistors connected to this trimpot) with simle circuit consisting of another trimpot and panel-mounted potentiometer. Similar modification needs to be done if you want to have a current regulation.

8 hours ago, buell47 said:

Can I simply connect 2x Lenovo connectors in parallel at the output? 

Yes, you just connect the cables in paralell at the charger output. The idea is to balance the current between two EUC charging ports, because they rated at only 5A. But inside the EUC both ports are connected again in paralell and there are only two wires connecting charging ports board with controller board.

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43 minutes ago, Seba said:

Third is used to set current threshold that will shut down cooling fan and signal that chargin is finished. In some chargers it is also used to switch off relay that disconnects charger from EUC. It's however advisable not to use this feature, because this prevents battery from balancing.

Volt/ampmeter can be added to any charger if you only can find 12V supply voltage. It's not a problem, as there is separate circuit to supply the cooling fan. You can use this circuit to supply power to the meter. To add voltage regulation you just replace trimpot (and probably one of the resistors connected to this trimpot) with simle circuit consisting of another trimpot and panel-mounted potentiometer. Similar modification needs to be done if you want to have a current regulation.

Only if it it is not set at a proper threshold - balancing happens throughout the whole CV phase.

If this is not sufficient the pack should be discharged and recharged again (some times) for balancing. Leaving the charged pack on a low current for long time exposes the cells to high stress.

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13 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Only if it it is not set at a proper threshold - balancing happens throughout the whole CV phase.

It depends on cell shunts resistance which is rather high, at least in King Song BMS - 100 ohm what equals to about 40 mA of shunting current per cell. So any effective balancing starts when charging current drops below 100 mA. This happens at the very end of CV phase. Most chargers signal end of charging when charging current drops below 200-300 mA.

 

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1 hour ago, Seba said:

Third is used to set current threshold that will shut down cooling fan and signal that chargin is finished. In some chargers it is also used to switch off relay that disconnects charger from EUC. It's however advisable not to use this feature, because this prevents battery from balancing.

If I were to adjust this third trimpot to stop charging at 85% for example, will I have to plug in a battery that is already at 85% and adjust until the relay triggers? 

Or do you suggest using the first trimpot to set output voltage to something like 83 volts instead? 

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2 minutes ago, Tinkererboi said:

Or do you suggest using the first trimpot to set output voltage to something like 83 volts instead? 

Yes, you don't need (and should not) to connect charger to the EUC/battery. Just connect voltmeter to the output of the charger and set voltage at 83 V or anything you want. Of course you'll need to determine the correct trimpot, but this is very simple. Just make exactly half turn and see if voltage changes. If not, this is not the right trimpot - just return to initial position and try another one.

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5 minutes ago, Seba said:

It depends on cell shunts resistance which is rather high, at least in King Song BMS - 100 ohm what equals to about 40 mA of shunting current per cell. So any effective balancing starts when charging current drops below 100 mA. This happens at the very end of CV phase. Most chargers signal end of charging when charging current drops below 200-300 mA.

 

Most "chinese" BMS have two comparators for cell voltages - one at around 4.2V to enable the balancing resistor, one at around 4.28V to cut off the charger input. (Just some values from some datasheet - not veryfied with an actual EUC BMS...)

So when charging, depending on the imbalance of the cells, somewhere in the range of the end of the CC or beginning of CV phase the first cells will reach this ~4.2V and the balancing resistors will decrease a bit their charging current.

Imo, yes at the end of the cycle the balancing should get more and more effectice, but it's the "bad" (lower capacity) cells that get lowest voltage while discharging and first the high voltages while charging -> they get stressed most. And the longer one keeps them for balancing on the charger the more additional stress they get and will degrade faster...

So (imo) normal discharging/full charging cycles should be the best "compromise" for balancing - not leaving them on the charger for prolonged times.

Once the capacity/degradation states of the cells get too big the whole pack/specific cells should be replaced anyhow - balancing won't work out anymore. Leaving them in such a state for balancing on a low current should just (if at all) be a short time solution killing them a bit faster... But in such a state this question is only academic, because this cells will reach the cell overvoltage threshold anyhow and the charger will be cut off...

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1 minute ago, Seba said:

Just make exactly half turn and see if voltage changes. If not, this is not the right trimpot - just return to initial position and try another one.

Alright, will do that. Convenient for me cause can just use my charge monitor to see which pot I am turning instead of having to probe around with a multimeter. :)

Maybe will try to crank up the amps just a little bit to achieve the same number of watts as before and therefore same charging speed. Understand that using amps to replace voltage stresses the components more but just a little bit should be fine i guess

Thanks once again for sharing your knowledge! 

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This 10 amp topic is driving me crazy. Tina from KS said some time ago, that 10 Ampere is possible with the 16X or 18L, I don't know exactly anymore. Now I just wanted to order the C1000 charger from 1Radwerkstatt, but they say that only a maximum of 5 amps is possible. I wrote Milli from KS this morning and she also says that only 5 amps is possible. What is correct now? 10 A what Tina says or 5 A what Milli says.

@Seba do you already use the full 10A without any problems? 

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6 hours ago, buell47 said:

This 10 amp topic is driving me crazy. Tina from KS said some time ago, that 10 Ampere is possible with the 16X or 18L, I don't know exactly anymore. Now I just wanted to order the C1000 charger from 1Radwerkstatt, but they say that only a maximum of 5 amps is possible. I wrote Milli from KS this morning and she also says that only 5 amps is possible. What is correct now? 10 A what Tina says or 5 A what Milli says.

Tina stated that both KS-18L and KS-18XL can be charged with currents up to 10 A. In case of KS-16X no statements were made from official representatives. However after latest firmware update will start beeping if it detects charging current higher that 5 A. So I suggest not to exceed this limit in case of this EUC. It's sad, as 5 A current significantly limit daily distance that could be achieved :(

When I'm out for a longer tour I always charge my KS-18XL with currents at about 8 - 9 A. No problems at all.

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