YZpower-450 (same as stock charger) killed my Sherman

[houseofjob]

16 hours ago, Planemo said:

I suspect it was unique (proprietary) to Ninebot rather than a commercially available plug, hence no name for it.

Kind of doubt it's proprietary, now that @Seba points out it's a generic charger.

We've never seen a proprietary charger connect in all of EUC, it's always been a borrowed standard: medical (LEMO for Ninebot 15S); aviation (GX16/GX12 variants for multiple brands); laptop (Lenovo for 84V IM & KS), etc. 

 

16 hours ago, Planemo said:

As for YZ Power chargers, I haven't had issues with either the Z10 or 84v and 100v GW fast chargers I have, nor have anyone else I know that has bought them for GW's etc. Could the Veteran problems be associated with the charging circuit within the wheel rather than the charger? Could the 'diode' or other part of the system cause problems?

Really doubt it's the Veteran wheel-side issue. I predominantly charge with my Grin Cycle Satiator and many many "fast charges" in, have had zero issues.

Plus, the first YZ Power 100V chargers made for Gotway 100V (they've never done the Z10 or any 84V wheel chargers, those are different manufacturers as @Seba stated here), were riddled with issues: most of our local NYC 100V early adopters back circa 2017-18, with that first 100V EUC in the Monster (pre-V2), many of those guys had their 3A chargers blow out (I believe they've improved the unit since then, as a result).

In the charger-making world, they take the same model charger and configure it to a wide range of voltages on request since, in the end, the charger is theoretically limited by just the power watts. So the "stock" Gotway 100V model YZPOWER-450 (450 Watts cap) is offered in 12.6V 20A, 29.4V 10A, 42V 8A, 67.2V 4A, 84V 4A, and the familiar 100.8V 3A (obviously the amps go down the higher voltage you configure, W = V*A).

The only problem with the above is whether the circuitry components are rated for, and can actually handle the higher end of voltage and/or amps. I kinda doubt this, as, until 100V EUC's, I've never heard of any common use case for 24S 100V, plus this charger model was created to be light and cheap and streamlined for multi-application usage, and they most likely are saying it can do 100V because of the theoretical 450 Watt capacity + math, without ever testing in real life, as is the typical 差不多 / Chàbùduō / "Good enough" China mentality/culture.

You can see here that the relatively "new" / alternate Veteran YZPOWER-450 / VETERAN-450 "stock" charger is no different in the streamline approach as the Gotway 100V YZPOWER-450, not to mention it's trying to pull higher amps at the same 450 Watt cap (and I wanna say the amp draw from this Vet charger did not hold consistent, but would have to rig up my Charge RX next time I have it with me).

IMHO really think this is just new charger config problem that will get ironed out down the line, but really sucks for early adopters like @null to get their wheel-side board fried as a result.

Edited January 26, 2021 by houseofjob

[null]

Yes I dont have as much oversight as @houseofjob here, but just the fact that of four YZ chargers pictured (mine and @fbhb ), none have the same combination of capacitors, doesn't seem very serious to me.

BTW speaking of chargers and Sherman, the Chargery sadly do not do balancing according to @EUC Addict

And speaking of chargers it might be worth it to make a "Chargers" thread in "General" as many are looking at faster chargers with the current crop of large batteries.

Edited January 26, 2021 by null

[houseofjob]

10 minutes ago, null said:

Yes I dont have as much oversight as @houseofjob here, but just the fact that of four YZ chargers pictured (mine and @fbhb ), none have the same combination of capacitors, smells of random production to me.

Not to mention, YZ Power is a Shenzhen company, and those companies widely use component supplies from recycled e-waste, etc., and the typical charger-buying consumer is probably not going to tear apart their charger and even know what to nitpick on the circuitry, if they're ordering pre-configured chargers.

 

10 minutes ago, null said:

BTW speaking of chargers and Sherman, the Chargery sadly do not do balancing according to @EUC Addict

 

This is common for "fast chargers", say ~7A and above, since they probably don't have the sophistication to change form Constant Amps charging to Constant Voltage charging at the last 1-2V that you speak of for balancing.

But I'm surprised the C10325 can't do CV charge effectively, will have to ask the NYC guys and Archee that Shane is referring to.

Either way, it's a moot point, just use something like a proven Gotway 100V 3A, which will get you that last 1-2V / CV balancing.

Also, FYI, my Cycle Satiator balances, no issues, esp since it has that last 1-2V CV trickle charge programming built-in.

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by houseofjob

[houseofjob]

@null I think those NYC guys using Chargery charger might not be using or configuring their units correctly, as the Chargery manual (page 9 of 19) states the unit has Constant Voltage capability:

Quote

1. c)  Set up end current. At CV phase (constant voltage), when the charging current is lower than

   settings , the charger stop charging and the battery fully charged, display KEEP charge status. The end current is a percentage (1-60%) of charge current setting . Such as the charge current setting is 10A, end current is setup to 10%, the end current is 1A.

Although, Archee is pretty electronics savvy, I'm surprised he wouldn't have picked up on this.

Edited January 26, 2021 by houseofjob

[null]

Nice find!

I wouldn't particularly use a 15A charger for balancing, but for the price it ought to. If used for travel it would be better not to lug around as second charger just for that.

As for higher Amp chargers and balancing, it seems the Voltage drop when cutting charge make it difficult for the charger to do that phase. I always lowered the rate manually toward end of charge as it would either cut at 100% and fall to 95% (just example) or go in a loop where it would start up again after registering 95% etc. I dont know the technical detail but it acts as if it was a pressure. (anyway, digressing  )

(Anyhow, very interested if you hear anything more)

(Otherwise looking at the C1000 / X1200 @Seba used, which probably isn't too dodgy or he would have mentioned it (still Shenzhen though))

Edited January 26, 2021 by null

[houseofjob]

6 minutes ago, null said:

Nice find!

I wouldn't particularly use a 15A charger for balancing, but for the price it ought to. If used for travel it would be better not to lug around as second charger just for that.

As for higher Amp chargers and balancing, it seems the Voltage drop when cutting charge make it difficult for the charger to do that phase. I always lowered the rate manually toward end of charge as it would either cut at 100% and fall to 95% (just example)or go in a loop where it would start up again after registering 95% etc. I dont know the technical detail but it acts as if it was a pressure. (anyway, digressing  )

I believe the way it works is that a charger charges at constant Amps for the majority of the charge, but when you reach that last ~1% threshold, the amps start to fall below 1A, which most chargers do not have settings for. 

So for cell balancing, the charger needs to switch to constant Voltage, so the charger will continue until it reaches that max Voltage, regardless of the amps, to reach max charge and thus balanced for EUC.

So, according to this Chargery manual, since their CV mode ends charge at 10% of the amp value, you wanna set it to 1A at the end to get the max .1A trickle charge.

The Cycle Satiator seems to be more precise, it let’s you setup and enter in precisely that last CV trickle charge  (trickle start V, end V, amps), in it’s menu (see page 13).

[shellac]

What’s the prevailing opinion on the rapid charger that ewheels sells for the Veteran? Better quality than the stock charger?

https://www.ewheels.com/product/100-8v-4a-rapid-charger-gotway-msx-nikola-monster/

[null]

Thanks a lot for the precision @houseofjob, I hadn't pondered what CV stood for before, puzzle pieces falling in place 👍🏻

Edited January 26, 2021 by null

[null]

14 minutes ago, shellac said:

What’s the prevailing opinion on the rapid charger that ewheels sells for the Veteran? Better quality than the stock charger?

https://www.ewheels.com/product/100-8v-4a-rapid-charger-gotway-msx-nikola-monster/

I have a version of this ( JR-T450 )(at least it seems to be the same build) and it "feels" much better than the YZ.
But then when looking closer "Jia Rui" seem to be part of YZ. (?)
So I dont know what to think of the internals. Am also interested if anyone have better insight.

edit: probably something to read in this thread.

Edited January 26, 2021 by null

[Chriull]

19 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

The Cycle Satiator seems to be more precise, it let’s you setup and enter in precisely that last CV trickle charge  (trickle start V, end V, amps), in it’s menu (see page 13).

At page 19 one seed a nice charging graph:

It begins with some Trickle (low current) charge for cells/packs with too low voltage - here the satiator tries to bring them up to normal voltages.

Second comes the C(onstant) C(urrent) Charge - they named it Buld Charge. Here the max Amps are used continously for charging. Once the 4.2V times cells in series are reached (67.2,84,100.8V) the C(onstant)V(oltage) stage starts. Here called "Full Voltage". One seed nicely how the current drop exponentially during this phase.

Once some threshold current is reached during this drop the cells are considered full. For NCR18650GA this is afair ~50mA per cell. With 10p this would be 0.5A as charge stop.

49 minutes ago, null said:

I wouldn't particularly use a 15A charger for balancing,

Balancing will and can only happen during this CV/"Full Voltage" phase - no matter of max charging current.

50 minutes ago, null said:

As for higher Amp chargers and balancing, it seems the Voltage drop when cutting charge make it difficult for the charger to do that phase.

During the CC/"Bulk Charge" Phase one will have always the voltage drop unplugging the charger - the higher the charging current, the higher the drop. During the CV/"Full Voltage" phase the charging current drops and by this the voltage drop will get lower and lower.

As this CV phase is to "saturate" the cells.

[houseofjob]

3 hours ago, Chriull said:

At page 19 one seed a nice charging graph:

LOL was wondering when you were gonna chime in, as this is right up your alley and you are more knowledgeable than I on this kind of stuff 

This point makes me appreciate my Cycle Satiator even more, despite the max amp cap, and you're reminding me that I need to delve more into the manuals like I've been meaning to, to maximize my Cycle Satiator usage to it's fullest.

 

3 hours ago, shellac said:

What’s the prevailing opinion on the rapid charger that ewheels sells for the Veteran? Better quality than the stock charger?

https://www.ewheels.com/product/100-8v-4a-rapid-charger-gotway-msx-nikola-monster/

It's a mixed bag.

The business model isn't anywhere different from the Gotway or Vet model, who outsource to YZ Power, except in the eWheels case, the mfr is Jia Rui and the model is JR-T450 (which I'm assuming denotes 450W max power), and some extra bells and whistles like amp select, % charge cap, and voltage readout coming with that model.

I've heard of some guys having issues with this charger over the years, especially when they bumped up to the 100V version (me included), but I don't recall any such reports of late. 

I think with these re-packaged chargers, the onus is on whoever is sourcing the charger (Gotway, Vet, eWheels) to make sure the inner components are suitable for 100V, problem-free charging, which I imagine someone like Jason has by now, remedied for from the earlier eWheels 100V charger issues(?).

Either way, I've never heard of the Jia Rui / eWheels chargers shorting out to the wheel board, only internal blown fuses issues etc. (which the JR-T450 fuse seems to be built-in and not replaceable).

In the end, I think you get what you pay for, given the price difference between these 3rd party Chinese chargers, and stuff double the price like the Grin Cycle Satiator or the Chargery C10325.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by houseofjob

[Planemo]

6 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Kind of doubt it's proprietary, now that @Seba points out it's a generic charger.

All I was saying is that it's proprietary to Ninebot. The fact that they can be bought on Ebay clearly means that they are not only available from Ninebot. My point was just that to my knowledge, only Ninebot uses them. I could be wrong of course, just that I have never seen them for any other device. Which would make them proprietory.

6 hours ago, houseofjob said:

We've never seen a proprietary charger connect in all of EUC, it's always been a borrowed standard: medical (LEMO for Ninebot 15S); aviation (GX16/GX12 variants for multiple brands); laptop (Lenovo for 84V IM & KS), etc. 

I'm aware of all the different connectors.

6 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Plus, the first YZ Power 100V chargers made for Gotway 100V (they've never done the Z10 or any 84V wheel chargers, those are different manufacturers

I will have to check who mine were made by. I know they were supplied by PM Battery, who seem to be the biggest YZ dealer.

6 hours ago, houseofjob said:

In the charger-making world, they take the same model charger and configure it to a wide range of voltages on request since, in the end, the charger is theoretically limited by just the power watts.

I totally agree, a Li-On charger is a Li-On charger. They aren't rocket science by any means, and I have no doubt that they try to 'stretch' the boards as far as they can to accomodate the largest volt/amp range they can. This is why I asked earlier if the 5A Vet chargers you are talking about had two boards inside or one. Mine has two (for 6A) so I was just thinking that stretching only a single board (if they indeed have only one) to 5A might be taxing it a bit.

I'm not saying that YZ are the highest quality charger at all (as you say, Grin are the best, albeit overpriced IMO) but it seems odd to me that theres a good many people including myself using their 6A 100v chargers on both stock and modded battery MSX's for many, many charges without issue, but we now have 2 (or 3?) Shermans that have gone pop in a short space of time. Incredibly bad luck? Bad batch of chargers? Or something within the wheel that the charger doesn't like?

The jury's out at the moment it seems.

[null]

The manual from Chargery (P3) states 4.15V as max terminal charge for li-ion. 
Could that keep the BMS from balancing (not reaching 4,2V?)

Edited February 17, 2021 by null

[Chriull]

31 minutes ago, null said:

The manual from Chargery (P3) states 4.15V as max terminal charge for li-ion. 
Could that keep the BMS from balancing (not reaching 4,2V?)

?Yes? -  presumably a bit.

As the balancing resistor is engaged somewhere at 4.2V ?+0.05/-0.05/+-0.05V? It depends on the tolerance of your conparators...

If the chargery charger seriously has 4.15V as maximum voltage it should have only negative tolerance...

[null]

Thanks for the reply, always apreciated.
I'll go through the whole manual (soon when time) to see if its a hard limit or if it can be adjusted.

We don't really know what the issue is anyway, other than "it doesn't work properly other than in PSU mode", so I try to investigate whatever it could be. I'd really like to get one rather than yet another random charger, but at 300+€ it better do more than PSU mode.

Edit: there really isn't much info to get anywhere, I tried over at Endless Sphere, only to have people insist I should use PSUs instead.

Edit 2: I'll give up on the Chargery C10325, the few first hand accounts of it are mostly negative, Chargery doesn't assure much warranty, there is no way to confirm it would properly charge the Sherman.

Off to another random charger, hoping it doesn't fry my Sherman. XieTong C1200 this time.

Edited February 17, 2021 by null

[YZPOWER]

From the picture, this yz450 fixed MOS iron
Connected to, MOS g pole and D pole, leading to two damaged resistors

 

[Planemo]

10 hours ago, YZPOWER said:

From the picture, this yz450 fixed MOS iron

Connected to, MOS g pole and D pole, leading to two damaged resistors

Can someone explain this in more detail please. I presume we could all do with checking our YZ chargers.

[WI_Hedgehog]

As a note, the YZPower units seem to have binned (the cheapest on the open market at the time) parts, and slammed-together assembly (whatever-works parts, leads don't fit the hole locations, parts are smushed in on angles, wires aren't in wire runs, no cheap Chinese adhesive--still the wrong thing to use). They don't seem to have power monitoring/filtering/correction that other power supplies have.

They did put their name on it, so that's a cut above the floor. The trend in China for the past few years (regarding power supplies) seems to be to take a solid design and put really cheap transformers in, binned parts from the market (and when they run low modify the PS design so what's available works), and keep cutting out as much of the circuitry as possible to reduce cost and make redesign easy. Actual capacity seems to follow the 52% rule, no surge currents, adaquate cooling (not supplied--you add that) and it'll work until some wierd phase shift happens somewhere along the line at which point the PS happily lets the smoke out. This has been a real problem where supply voltage has been fluctuating under heavy usage in the area and concurrent inductive loads.

BUT, this is my experience outside the EUC world, and as I've discovered the EUC world of electronics is often vastly different for both good and sometimes detrimental reasons; regardless I'm often way off base. Food for thought.

[null]

Welcome and thank you for joining the forum @YZPOWER .

My pictures where taken at night, I can make better ones if that can be useful. It seems you have been able to understand what the issue was though.

If what you say about the charger not being able to damage a controller board is right, then the Veteran Sherman have a problem of being too sensitive or not enough protected. I will write to them in case they havent had enough returns with the E-CHAR error to care.

I am glad to read in the other thread that the charger will be improved to avoid the same issue. It would have been even better if I could check my other YZpower-450 to make sure I can trust it though.

Edited February 22, 2021 by null