How NOT to ride

[Sludog]

2 hours ago, atdlzpae said:

 

Every motorcyclist is wearing a helmet. Going limp + no helmet == fractured skull.
If going limp was a better solution, we'd evolve to go limp when falling.

Thus, I doubt that alcohol helped in any way.

The alcohol may have only helped him managing the instant pain he endured. 

His hangover will be the worst he has ever had. 

[Sludog]

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

 I can only hope that my next hi-speed crash will look more like the second video than the opening shot. So far they have, but I'm only a skull crack away...

Damn dude, how may high speed crashes have you had? 

It's like you know the crashes are coming. Keep the speed down my friend. 

[.....]

41 minutes ago, Sludog said:

Damn dude, how may high speed crashes have you had? 

It's like you know the crashes are coming. Keep the speed down my friend. 

I live by the biker creedo.. Its not a matter of IF, but a matter of WHEN. I havent come off my euc or scooter at speeds above about 15-20mph, but if i keep riding, the odds go up. I lost track of how many +40 mph crashes I've had on 2 wheels. This is the same theory of most of the guys who prefer an 'AGATT' philosophy. In short, I DO KNOW the 'crashes are coming'. The real question is.. Don't you?

Edited November 14, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Darrell Wesh]

8 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I think studies have shown that going 'limp' and being intoxicated can help mitigate injury. I also think that being intoxicated can increase the risk of being in an accident associated with an injury altogether. After the initial impact to protect the skull, I am pretty sure that going limp for the slide is a better scenario. Of course, there's so many variables that I think EVERYONE is right in some form or another, here. I'm not sure that falling is common enough that we will 'evolve' to doing it the best way. Of course, we kind of have, as our bodies can black out or go into shock. These are evolutions of the body to protect itself. Being loose in a fall is something that is trained in many cases. Again, i think everyone has a point. Me, I'd like to know that the chances are an accident will occur from mistakes rather than equipment failure. Not that Im saying any of these examples above were equip failiure. I can only hope that my next hi-speed crash will look more like the second video than the opening shot. So far they have, but I'm only a skull crack away...

It is true that going limp CAN prevent broken bones. There are popular cases where people have been sleeping during a tornado and have gotten blown out of their house and fallen from ridiculous heights only to survive because their body wasn’t tense. 
 

But in this scenario in a forward facing posture that’s the worst thing you can do. You can almost see his reaction was slowed as he did nothing once the wheel started dipping, no raising of the arms or putting the foot forward, he simply crashed to the ground like a tree going timber. 
 

Had he a reaction he likely would have sacrificed breaking his wrists or shoulder to save his skull. 

[BarrettJ]

On 11/14/2020 at 12:08 AM, atdlzpae said:

If going limp was a better solution, we'd evolve to go limp when falling.

We would if there were enough selective pressure on a long enough timescale - but motor vehicles and the speeds they entail haven't even been around long enough to evolve instincts regarding them.  Take a look at all the dead deer along the road - and they have a much high selective pressure to evolve these instincts. 

[mhpr262]

On 11/11/2020 at 7:30 PM, xiiijojjo said:

I'd rather opt to somehow make the euc's beeps louder by getting more beeper's or whatever you call the tiny speakers... Ideally with enough of them to easily overpower the sound of for instance listening to loud music on a portable Bluetooth speaker. 

Those are Piezo alarms ... I wonder why they dont use louder ones. One of my hobbies is high powered elecctric R/C models and in order to protect the li-poly pouch cells we use from harm we use lipo alarm beepers that go off when the voltage of a cell sinks below a certain value. Those things are so loud I have to put my finger over the openings of the modules when I plug the battery in or it would hurt my ears. I can hear them going off inside my RC gliders from 250m altitude, with the motor running.

[atdlzpae]

@BarrettJ Would we ever? I don't think so. We had millions of years of pressure - about 50 million since the first primates. And every primate trips multiple times in their life. And we still keep defending ourselves. Especially telling is the fact that soft surfaces (soil/grass/sand) were much more prevalent in the past.

As far as I understand, going limp is good for the body, but terrible for a skull. And repairing a dislocated shoulder is way easier than repairing a brain.

Edited November 15, 2020 by atdlzpae

[mrelwood]

My blood boils slowly right now, so I shall let myself rant. To talk only about whether being drunk helps or makes the fall worse after an accident like this is disturbing to me. Why is no-one pointing out the fact that the rider fell on a wheel that does exactly that by design? Why is that feature ok?

It’s ridiculous to expect a human being (drunk or sober) to be able to take in consideration all aspects that affect the top speed capability of the vehicle at any given time, especially when the vehicle is already controlled by a relatively modern computer that has no issues calculating various additional parameters dozens of times every single second. Why is it ok that the only thing the vehicle does to warn about the rider crashing at 60km/h is to beep at the rider’s feet? At the same volume the vehicle announces it has been powered on, even.

 

Having the option to turn off the tilt-back on a GW is simply a lethally wrong design decision. Having to use a third party app to set the tilt-back to speeds over 48km/h is another. And having no possibility of a tilt-back speed that gets lower with the battery charge is yet another. Together they make sure that most GW riders remove the tilt-back altogether.

 I’m pretty certain that every rider who has crashed from overspeeding on a GW would gladly have given up 10% of top speed if they had known it would one day save them from a full speed crash on pavement, and the following hospital stay, bills, sick leave from work, and being absent from life altogether for weeks or even months. We have seen so many pieces of evidence that a rider is simply not capable of making that decision before the crash.

 Don’t get me wrong, I love speed. I rode the MSX for over two years, often exceeding 50km/h. But this is not the issue of speed. This is an issue of this suicidal behavior from a vehicle being ok to the customers and the community.

The GW tilt-back is easily soft and slow enough to be useful even higher than at 80% lift speed. Adjustable non removable tilt-back all the way to 90%  would’ve definitely prevented the crash of this topic, and countless others alike.

The theory about the tilt-back itself requiring enough power to cause a cutout has been debunked a year ago. It doesn’t take any more power than it would take for the rider himself to start braking.

 While GW doesn’t seem to listen to feedback very much, they would surely listen to lost sales. This issue is easily severe enough to be raised some noise over.

[I_Must_Bust]

29 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

My blood boils slowly right now, so I shall let myself rant. To talk only about whether being drunk helps or makes the fall worse after an accident like this is disturbing to me. Why is no-one pointing out the fact that the rider fell on a wheel that does exactly that by design? Why is that feature ok?

It’s ridiculous to expect a human being (drunk or sober) to be able to take in consideration all aspects that affect the top speed capability of the vehicle at any given time, especially when the vehicle is already controlled by a relatively modern computer that has no issues calculating various additional parameters dozens of times every single second. Why is it ok that the only thing the vehicle does to warn about the rider crashing at 60km/h is to beep at the rider’s feet? At the same volume the vehicle announces it has been powered on, even.

 

Having the option to turn off the tilt-back on a GW is simply a lethally wrong design decision. Having to use a third party app to set the tilt-back to speeds over 48km/h is another. And having no possibility of a tilt-back speed that gets lower with the battery charge is yet another. Together they make sure that most GW riders remove the tilt-back altogether.

 I’m pretty certain that every rider who has crashed from overspeeding on a GW would gladly have given up 10% of top speed if they had known it would one day save them from a full speed crash on pavement, and the following hospital stay, bills, sick leave from work, and being absent from life altogether for weeks or even months. We have seen so many pieces of evidence that a rider is simply not capable of making that decision before the crash.

 Don’t get me wrong, I love speed. I rode the MSX for over two years, often exceeding 50km/h. But this is not the issue of speed. This is an issue of this suicidal behavior from a vehicle being ok to the customers and the community.

The GW tilt-back is easily soft and slow enough to be useful even higher than at 80% lift speed. Adjustable non removable tilt-back all the way to 90%  would’ve definitely prevented the crash of this topic, and countless others alike.

The theory about the tilt-back itself requiring enough power to cause a cutout has been debunked a year ago. It doesn’t take any more power than it would take for the rider himself to start braking.

 While GW doesn’t seem to listen to feedback very much, they would surely listen to lost sales. This issue is easily severe enough to be raised some noise over.

battery dependent tiltback should be standard for sure. Is it only gotway that's missing this feature? I've only ridden the tesla so no experience with other companies' wheels.

Edited November 16, 2020 by I_Must_Bust

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, I_Must_Bust said:

Is it only gotway that's missing this feature?

Yes. Well, not sure about Veteran, but all others do have it, and it can’t be turned off by the user.

[I_Must_Bust]

8 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Yes. Well, not sure about Veteran, but all others do have it, and it can’t be turned off by the user.

I wonder if this could be accomplished in-app by a third party by automatically adjusting your tilt-back speed as the battery depletes. 

Not sure any developers would want that liability though.

[I_Must_Bust]

@mrelwood I happened to be watching this vid just now -- It seems like he implies he was getting lower speed tilt-back on the RS when low on battery. Wondering if you know whether this is the same feature that KS and Inmotion have and if it's new for the RS.

Edited November 16, 2020 by I_Must_Bust

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, I_Must_Bust said:

@mrelwood I happened to be watching this vid just now -- It seems like he implies he was getting lower speed tilt-back on the RS when low on battery. Wondering if you know whether this is the same feature that KS and Inmotion have and if it's new for the RS.

When a GW battery reaches “0%” (3.3V per cell) even momentarily for example during acceleration, it will tilt back until the voltage recovers back above the limit. If the battery is low enough not to recover, it stays tilted back until recharged.

 But this is not directly related to speed, so it brings safety near the top speed only if the wheel is running completely out of battery.

[mhpr262]

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

My blood boils slowly right now, so I shall let myself rant. To talk only about whether being drunk helps or makes the fall worse after an accident like this is disturbing to me. Why is no-one pointing out the fact that the rider fell on a wheel that does exactly that by design? Why is that feature ok?

It’s ridiculous to expect a human being (drunk or sober) to be able to take in consideration all aspects that affect the top speed capability of the vehicle at any given time

It was that guy's choice to buy and ride a Gotway, it was his choice to disable the tiltback, it was his choice to get totally pissed over a span of several hours, it was his choice to ride his EUV at excessive speeds without proper gear while still totally pissed.

It's just called personal responsibility.

 

[mrelwood]

5 minutes ago, mhpr262 said:

It was that guy's choice to buy and ride a Gotway, it was his choice to disable the tiltback, it was his choice to get totally pissed over a span of several hours, it was his choice to ride his EUV at excessive speeds without proper gear while still totally pissed.

It's just called personal responsibility.

I still see it as manufacturer responsibility. Despite the rider’s negligence, that simply wouldn’t have happened with a proper tilt-back to protect the rider.

No other vehicle throws the rider off when reaching a certain combination of speed, acceleration and battery charge level. Doesn’t that make GW the outlier, and not the rider?

[Sludog]

3 hours ago, mhpr262 said:

It was that guy's choice to buy and ride a Gotway, it was his choice to disable the tiltback, it was his choice to get totally pissed over a span of several hours, it was his choice to ride his EUV at excessive speeds without proper gear while still totally pissed.

It's just called personal responsibility.

 

Great points made. Unfortunately personal responsibility has been lost years ago. Nowadays it's look for someone or something to blame when mistakes are made. 

 

[I_Must_Bust]

3 hours ago, mhpr262 said:

It was that guy's choice to buy and ride a Gotway, it was his choice to disable the tiltback, it was his choice to get totally pissed over a span of several hours, it was his choice to ride his EUV at excessive speeds without proper gear while still totally pissed.

It's just called personal responsibility.

 

8 minutes ago, Sludog said:

Great points made. Unfortunately personal responsibility has been lost years ago. Nowadays it's look for someone or something to blame when mistakes are made. 

 

The issue is, as I understand, even if the tilt-back is on and set to 95% of the wheel's top rated speed you can still get a cutout when the battery is at 30% without the tilt-back engaging whereas other brands will dynamically adjust tilt-back speed with the battery level.

Don't know if the guy went past the rated top speed and had tilt-back turned off or if the above scenario occurred but, as a gotway owner, I'd like to see this extra safety feature. The beeps are already battery dependent, why not the tilt-back? 

[Scottie888]

12 minutes ago, I_Must_Bust said:

...but, as a gotway owner, I'd like to see this extra safety feature. The beeps are already battery dependent, why not the tilt-back? 

I don't disagree except for the fact that you don't have to be a GW/BG/VS owner. You can buy an Inmotion or a KS & get all the factory tiltback you want. That's fair & no argument/s here.

However we all know (or atleast we should do our homework & know) that GW/BG/VS operates in a different manner by design (& maybe as marketing strategy). Are we denying that some of us at least buy GW/BG/VS specifically because it isn't factory limited but instead design limited. 

I'm not saying its correct but can we say its not? Do we as endusers not bear personal responsibility? Most modern autos can break the speed limit (&then some) easily so does that mean its the mfgr's responsibility if someone crashes over the speed limit? Or would you prefer that all autos sold just do the speed limit?

Just askin 🤔

[I_Must_Bust]

16 hours ago, Scottie888 said:

I don't disagree except for the fact that you don't have to be a GW/BG/VS owner. You can buy an Inmotion or a KS & get all the factory tiltback you want. That's fair & no argument/s here.

However we all know (or atleast we should do our homework & know) that GW/BG/VS operates in a different manner by design (& maybe as marketing strategy). Are we denying that some of us at least buy GW/BG/VS specifically because it isn't factory limited but instead design limited. 

I'm not saying its correct but can we say its not? Do we as endusers not bear personal responsibility? Most modern autos can break the speed limit (&then some) easily so does that mean its the mfgr's responsibility if someone crashes over the speed limit? Or would you prefer that all autos sold just do the speed limit?

Just askin 🤔

You could have a battery dependent tilt-back speed that can also be turned off...

If you want to turn it off entirely then that's your prerogative. I just don't want to have to guess if I can hit my tilt-back speed without a cutout at whatever % battery I have.

Edited November 17, 2020 by I_Must_Bust

[Planemo]

13 hours ago, I_Must_Bust said:

You can have a battery dependent tilt-back speed that can also be turned off...

Are you suggesting that is the case for Gotway…?!

[mrelwood]

 

Quote

Nowadays it's look for someone or something to blame when mistakes are made.

This is not about that. It’s about what is a reasonable result/punishment from a bad decision or a few. If you walk the red light when no cars are around and a cop sees you, a death penalty for example is not a reasonable punishment. If you fail to precisely estimate your speed, the battery level at the current temperature, and your level of acceleration, and calculate them all together on the fly, falling down on pavement at 60km/h is NOT a reasonable outcome/punishment. 

 

Quote

However we all know (or atleast we should do our homework & know) that GW/BG/VS operates in a different manner by design

Perhaps we should know. Again, what if the homework has not been made, what is a reasonable punishment? It is not reasonable to expect that a vehicle throws you off at the maximum speed if you set the settings in a way that almost every GW owner recommends.

I know a single mom of 4 young kids who rides the MCM5. I doubt she has even thought that she should’ve googled to find our forum, and searched for the exact top does behavior of her new vehicle. It’s not reasonable to expect that one should do so.

Quote

Are we denying that some of us at least buy GW/BG/VS specifically because it isn't factory limited but instead design limited.

I don’t think we do. I think GW is usually bought because of speed, despite the lack of reasonable safety features. Not because of the lack of said features.

 

Quote

Do we as endusers not bear personal responsibility? Most modern autos can break the speed limit (&then some) easily so does that mean its the mfgr's responsibility if someone crashes over the speed limit? Or would you prefer that all autos sold just do the speed limit?

Again, cars do not throw you out on the road if you failed to see the speed limit that was covered in snow. If they would, would you blame the riders for “not doing their homework”? Personal responsibility is a different matter, this issue is about manufacturer negligence.

53 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Are you suggesting that is the case for Gotway…?!

I think he meant that it could be.

[I_Must_Bust]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

Are you suggesting that is the case for Gotway…?!

No I was just wishing for the battery dependent tilt-back that other wheels have to be added to gotways. Edited to make that more clear

[cucurac]

On 11/16/2020 at 12:56 AM, mrelwood said:

My blood boils slowly right now, so I shall let myself rant...

Thank you, mrelwood! I have a Gotway Tesla V2 1020 Wh as a first EUC and I still can't figure out where the line is for a possible cut out. This seems crazy as the rider is in such a vulnerable position. When I'm going up steep hills, I hold my hands up thinking I might get pitched off. Down hill, near full charge, who knows? I don't know how different safety is between models. I bought it because it seemed like the right balance of weight (lift it up stairs) and speed and range. I don't fully understand the safety features, even though I've tried to read about them. It comes with basically nothing. Many discussions seem to think it's fine to disable safety features (like that the 20 mph beep is a pain/not needed). Although the beer drinker guy was clearly reckless, he doesn't deserve to be killed (glad he survived and is okay). The machine shouldn't cut out like this (I realized that it is complex).  

Also the whole alcohol discussion is pretty interesting (thanks other members for their thoughts on this).

ps I haven't disabled anything (I don't think). I occasionally get the ~20 mph beep. I've played around with GW app and darknessbot but am generally confused by them (all the weird settings) and don't want to deal apps every time I go somewhere. Also seems to drain phone. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[null]

On 11/16/2020 at 8:38 AM, mrelwood said:

Yes. Well, not sure about Veteran, but all others do have it, and it can’t be turned off by the user.

The Veteran behaves (AFAIK) like a Gotway, only beep is power based, TB is set to a specific speed and doesn't adapt.
Too bad, I find KSs power adaptive TB a good intuitive safety feature. 

[Scottie888]

Honestly I don't know what is the "right" mix of safety & performance but like everyone, I would like to have my cake & eat it too. However we wake up & reality bites. What I do know is I would much rather have variety than monotony so in that vein, I disagree with this rush to be the same.

As mentioned there are already wheels that fit those that want a battery/voltage associated tiltback feature. So are we implying we want a single standard for all makes/models to have this or are we just targeting GW/BG/VS for daring to be on a different train?

Hopefully most of us live in a free society with a free market system so why don't we be good members of that free society & vote with our wallets. Instead of demanding things to be one way & one way only, lets allow our free market to have a vote & weed out the products we don't want. I find it especially ironic as this particular demand have already been met. Innovation is a good thing & being different isn't necessary a bad thing either.

For those who value ignorance as an excuse, let just say that if the Romans over 2000 years ago figured out Ignorantia Juris Non Excusat, (when even paper might not be available as yet), there is no excuse in this age of the internet. Otherwise, lets ban everything & just walk but a little voice inside tells me somehow the ignoramus would come up with excuses when they trip & fall.

We're lucky to live in very interesting & exciting times but I can't help but be reminded of 2 ancient Chinese curses...."May you live in interesting times" & "May you find what you are looking for" which can be interpreted as be careful of what you wish for...... 

As usual, YMMV ofcos

Edited November 17, 2020 by Scottie888