kingsong 16x's veiled 1.08 firmware update

[DannyK]

 

On 4/14/2020 at 4:18 AM, Chriull said:

They did internal testing, beta testing with volunteers and now since they are ok they deliver new wheels with this firmware. Since they seem to have now too the new ks app they will open it to public for update.

If you are absolutely unhappy with this your reseller should be able to help you out with the soft tuner app for downgrading.

Sorry, but i can't see here any discrimination or whatever other reason to be upset!?

Well that is not the words I have received from Jack from the start so I defenitely feelt upset. I am starting to think you might even be a kingsong staff knowing so much in detail about this that Jack even forgot to mention about.

He specifically just told me that they tested it internally yes but they could not open it up to the public fully since it could have some issues and then everyone would be stuck with it. So they are rolling it out slowly to SEE if there are any issues. So I strongly objected and requested to at least make backup plans like firmware rollback to make things fair IN CASE things go sideways with new firmware and he said he understands my concerns and will address it. Do I need to post the captured conversation I had with him on here?

p.s. my friend here bought that 16x some time ago but he saw this update on his app like 3 days ago and took it. How are u going to explain that then? He didnt recently get his wheel. And one of the biggest reseller here has not even got their newest batches from china shipped just yet. But they found out about this 1.08 update after selling a stock they had. I didnt buy from this reseller but Ive got a member on our group chat who did and told me this. Now pls explain how all this is voluntary beta testing?

Edited April 15, 2020 by DannyK

[Chriull]

9 minutes ago, DannyK said:

enough with lies over lies?

Pfff... Seems you'd stay upset. So be it.

Wish you the best with your new wheel and hopefully it works well for you or you find some solution to get rid of 1.08

Have fun!

[DannyK]

On 4/14/2020 at 4:45 AM, DjPanJan said:

I'd simplify it like this @DannyK  he wants to say he would expect the ability to downgrade firmware like on a computer motherboard where as a customer you download bios / firmware from what date and type you want if it is compatible with your hardware and you can safely use it.

I also do not have a dealer in my country so a downgrade would cost me + - 100 euros / usd postage (back and forth together) plus the money for work.

I'd rather pay Kingsong for a 24h login rental and do it myself.

The drama around 1.08 too I do not understand.

I wish FW1.08 existed and made the KS16X more fun machine like  Inmotion do 2 driving modes Confort / FUN (1.05) or Classic / Battery save (1.07).

There are always things to improve The amazing example is the 18XL and the new FW 2.0 which was "revolutionary" made the engine quiet etc and came out years later and many riders like it.

Some people definitely want to have a choice to stay with current version and see if the new firmware is okay to move on to it right? But some of us new buyers or even ones who bought quite some time ago got that update on our app. I dont know if its country specific it almost look like it but I felt strange why nobody on this forum talks about the new firmware. Some dont even know that this firmware update could 'possibly' disappoint them from former experience and we cant even downgrade it even if we wanted to. I know this because how some ppl felt about 1.05 being more powerful wheel compared to 1.07. 

Now to the point, knowing at this point for a fact that some of us are being beta tested without a notice and a backup plan just did not feel right to me. And the words I was delivered from Jack was very specific unlike what some ppl up there suggests.

Edited April 15, 2020 by DannyK

[Brandin J. Mercer]

I'm excited for new firmware but, I definitely do not want it rushed. Given how successful the latest 18" firmware was, released years after release. I can imagine they'll take all they learned and used some of those improvements in the 16x firmware release. 

[DannyK]

6 minutes ago, Brandin J. Mercer said:

I'm excited for new firmware but, I definitely do not want it rushed. Given how successful the latest 18" firmware was, released years after release. I can imagine they'll take all they learned and used some of those improvements in the 16x firmware release. 

Thats my point. But they are not giving that choice to some users. Possibly country specific. There I felt bad since they are beta testing this on segmentation of users before a full release which includes me and some of 16x users in the group! So I was insisting to add at least rollback feature if they are going to test this firmware without even a notice on some of new users as well as previous ones who downloaded the update without knowing anything about what changes firmwares can bring. I do so i wanted to address it.

Edited April 13, 2020 by DannyK

[mike_bike_kite]

1 hour ago, DannyK said:

Some people definitely want to have a choice to stay with current version and see if the new firmware is okay to move on to it right? But some of us new buyers or even ones who bought quite some time ago got that update on our app. I dont know if its country specific it almost look like it but I felt strange why nobody on this forum talks about the new firmware. Some dont even know that this firmware update could 'possibly' disappoint them from former experience and we cant even downgrade it even if we wanted to. I know this because how some ppl felt about 1.05 being more powerful wheel compared to 1.07. 

Now to the point, knowing that some of us are being beta tested without a notice and not releasing this fully just did not feel right to me. And the words I was delivered from Jack was very specific unlike what some ppl up there suggests.

If you can't wait for the EUC World app then you could try the Kingsong SoftTuner  app v1.1.0. I believe you can download old versions of the firmware using this app. It used to be that only dealers were able to use this app but now there's a guest login (mentioned here). Personally I'd stick with the latest software though. The latest firmware 2.01 for my KS16S has been brilliant.

[travsformation]

@DannyK I understand the frustration of feeling that you or other people in your environment are being used as guinea pigs. Corporate policies can be despotic as hell; I've lost track of how many products I've bought that were complete junk and whose subsequent versions were better tuned and fully functional. It's a b*tch that it's that way, but it is...I'm not excusing it, I'm just saying it's pretty generalized... 

On the other hand, despite the arguable ethics involved, if your friends haven't experienced any negative issues with FW 1.0.8., and you haven't even received your wheel, I don't think it's worth getting that worked up about this. If you/they encounter any issues, they can be sorted then, and you have an entire community here willing to help, which is what the users you're arguing with were trying to do. What you might perceive as downplaying/defending KS is just the matter-of-fact attitude of people who are no strangers to manufacturers' often reproachable quality issues, customer service (or lack thereof), roll-out strategies, beta-testing, etc. The things you're getting so worked up about don't seem that big a deal to them compared to, for example, paying $2K+ for a wheel you can't even ride when you receive it because the OEM app crashes the second you open it, making it impossible to unlock the wheel; or having to send your wheel back for repairs after a week due lack of QC leading to a fried board; or face-planting at 45 km/h because the manufacturer rushed a release for sales purposes when the firmware wasn't safe yet...

Written language can easily lead to misunderstandings. When they occur, I find it's better to give others the benefit of the doubt than to be confrontational, which serves no purpose. Just like worrying about a problem that, at this point, has yet to appear 

[DannyK]

2 hours ago, travsformation said:

@DannyK I understand the frustration of feeling that you or other people in your environment are being used as guinea pigs. Corporate policies can be despotic as hell; I've lost track of how many products I've bought that were complete junk and whose subsequent versions were better tuned and fully functional. It's a b*tch that it's that way, but it is...I'm not excusing it, I'm just saying it's pretty generalized... 

On the other hand, despite the arguable ethics involved, if your friends haven't experienced any negative issues with FW 1.0.8., and you haven't even received your wheel, I don't think it's worth getting that worked up about this. If you/they encounter any issues, they can be sorted then, and you have an entire community here willing to help, which is what the users you're arguing with were trying to do. What you might perceive as downplaying/defending KS is just the matter-of-fact attitude of people who are no strangers to manufacturers' often reproachable quality issues, customer service (or lack thereof), roll-out strategies, beta-testing, etc. The things you're getting so worked up about don't seem that big a deal to them compared to, for example, paying $2K+ for a wheel you can't even ride when you receive it because the OEM app crashes the second you open it, making it impossible to unlock the wheel; or having to send your wheel back for repairs after a week due lack of QC leading to a fried board; or face-planting at 45 km/h because the manufacturer rushed a release for sales purposes when the firmware wasn't safe yet...

Written language can easily lead to misunderstandings. When they occur, I find it's better to give others the benefit of the doubt than to be confrontational, which serves no purpose. Just like worrying about a problem that, at this point, has yet to appear 

I understand what you mean, but this post started getting so much more worked up and messier as some started jumping in with sarcasm and started putting out false words as if kingsong never meant to or did not beta test this firmware to ppl without voluntary approval. That was so ridiculous as I know the fact and just made me get on to it.

p.s. Just because what they've been doing has been generallized, or how this is nothing compared to some of other beta testing losses, it doesnt mean its right thing to do. So just because beta testers have no issues yet, that doesnt mean they should be tested first without a notice or tested without any backup plan 'in case' things go bad especially when it can be given quite easily. Why is it wrong pointing it out and asking for at least some precautionary or fair customer oriented measures which is not even hard to accomplish? And this want of rollback system already has been stated by others quite a few times on this forum but it required a special dealer app with admin key which isnt something we can get easily depending on the reseller. And thanks to some comments I finally found out that we can do that without admin access anymore if thats true.

[DannyK]

5 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

If you can't wait for the EUC World app then you could try the Kingsong SoftTuner  app v1.1.0. I believe you can download old versions of the firmware using this app. It used to be that only dealers were able to use this app but now there's a guest login (mentioned here). Personally I'd stick with the latest software though. The latest firmware 2.01 for my KS16S has been brilliant.

Thank you for the information. Where could I download this app?

And I wasnt saying it has issues right now so that i have to roll back, i was pointing out ethical problems with unnoticed beta testing on segmentation of users and a need for at least providing a back up plan for them if they get any issues with new software since there isnt any for now that are officially provided.

[EUCMasterRace]

New EUC member here. Received my KS 16x on 3-8-2020 and it came with FW 1.8. I just learned how to ride but I haven’t noticed any issues. So far I’ve topped out at 26mph but that’s because I set that limit. I’m wearing all my protective gear but you guys are making me nervous. 

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, EUCMasterRace said:

New EUC member here. Received my KS 16x on 3-8-2020 and it came with FW 1.8. I just learned how to ride but I haven’t noticed any issues. So far I’ve topped out at 26mph but that’s because I set that limit. I’m wearing all my protective gear but you guys are making me nervous. 

I don't think there is anything to be nervous about.

I can think about 3 reasons why 1.08 are out on new wheels.

It can be due to new control board.  This mean only those with latest controll board need it. So no need to make it public.

Or they want a slow rollout in similar way as Microsoft do on windows. Could be because all manpower is directed to S18 in afford to not having IM getting out too early ahead is KS.

Or that they know fw updates done by KS app have a risk to brick a wheel. This would give KS time to collect feedback too before a major roll out.

[mike_bike_kite]

A staged rollout is pretty normal in the software industry. Initial testing would be done by those at the company. Further testing may be available for those who've set themselves up as testers in the community. Then you'd release to a small subset of your community, usually it's done randomly but here they seem to have done it for those in the same timezone as themselves which makes it easier to support if anyone has any questions. Then they'll slowly roll it out to everyone. It makes perfect sense to me.

[travsformation]

7 hours ago, DannyK said:

Thank you for the information. Where could I download this app?

Only authorized distributors have access to it, you'll have to ask your retailer/distributor

[travsformation]

7 hours ago, DannyK said:

p.s. Just because what they've been doing has been generallized, or how this is nothing compared to some of other beta testing losses, it doesnt mean its right thing to do. So just because beta testers have no issues yet, that doesnt mean they should be tested first without a notice or tested without any backup plan 'in case' things go bad especially when it can be given quite easily. Why is it wrong pointing it out and asking for at least some precautionary or fair customer oriented measures which is not even hard to accomplish? And this want of rollback system already has been stated by others quite a few times on this forum but it required a special dealer app with admin key which isnt something we can get easily depending on the reseller. And thanks to some comments I finally found out that we can do that without admin access anymore if thats true.

I never said it's right, but I don't see the point in condemning something based on mere speculation. You don't know for a fact that this is random beta-testing. There are many other possibilities (mentioned in comments above) that are just as (or more) feasible. Why choose the most sinister road? 

You've got an awesome wheel headed your way! That's all you should be thinking about! 

[WI_Hedgehog]

16 hours ago, DannyK said:

He specifically just told me that they tested it internally yes but they could not open it up to the public fully since it might have some issues and then everyone would be stuck with it. So they are rolling it out slowly to SEE if there are any issues. So I strongly objected and requested to at least make backup plans like firmware rollback to make things fair IN CASE things go sideways with new firmware and he said he understands my concerns and will address it. Do I need to post the captured conversation I had with him on here?

I think this is more to the point, KS tested it internally and think it's stable, and are slowly rolling it out close to home, which is indeed a good stragegy.

However, users should be able to pick which firmware version they want to install, especially given a bad firmware can make a wheel useless or dangerous (the point @DannyK is making). Users should not have to wait for weeks for the manufacturer to write/test an update when a previous version would solve the problem this minute.

The reason I left Segway and went with an EUC is because I bought 2 hoverboards (a significant investment) that go 15 MPH (17 max) and through forced firmware upgrades now have two boards that have firmware bug fixes but only go 9 MPH (10.5 max). That's not the product I purchased, it's 2/3 of it. Further, the speed limit I can set is 2 to 6.5 MPH, so instead of Segway allowing users to set a reasonable speed limit (like 8 or 12) they have either "slow" (9 MPH) or "really slow" (6.5 MPH or less). Segway has the most advanced firmware I've seen--but I can no longer use the product I purchased, so I will no longer purchase their products.

I'm looking forward to @Seba's update to EUC World so we can create firmware repositories and flash as needed, instead of having a downed wheel if a firmware is found buggy. (Thank you good sir.)

(You should not post private conversations in public forums without permission from all parties in the conversation.) 

Edited April 14, 2020 by WI_Hedgehog
Private conversation note.

[DannyK]

On 4/14/2020 at 12:43 PM, travsformation said:

I never said it's right, but I don't see the point in condemning something based on mere speculation. You don't know for a fact that this is random beta-testing. There are many other possibilities (mentioned in comments above) that are just as (or more) feasible. Why choose the most sinister road? 

You've got an awesome wheel headed your way! That's all you should be thinking about! 

OMG Ive already mentioned that it is a fact like so many times with detailed explanation and I dont know how many more to make u admit it but they have not released it openly yet right? But they did with new users and one of original users in my country also had that update option on his app and he downloaded it a few days ago obviously without knowing he will be a beta tester^^ or anything about firmwares actually.

Point is they definitely hell did not agree to be beta testers like some ridiculous comments up there which you still support.

Plus I said that I have shared messages with Jack(Kingsong staff) and he specifically stated that they have not opened it up FULLY but slowly rolling out to see the feedbacks because he doesnt want the firmware to have issues with everyone. Okay?? What are u saying is my speculation exactly? You want to see the captured conversation?  If you are going to start blaming me of making speculations which is in fact what you are doing, at least try reading all their previous posts carefully. It just makes you look no more than just a big kingsong worshiper.

Edited April 16, 2020 by travsformation

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

I think your case can only be solved with your dealer.

If he also lost his patience, you can also try here:

info@szkingsong.com

Tel:86-755-23193478

Fax: 86(755)-23193477

Address:
Bldg 7 No 71 Xinghu Rd Hongxing 8th Ind-park Yutang Guangming Shenzhen China 518132

 

If this does not lead to success I can only recommend you to send the wheel back and buy a Gotway, then you are safe from such discrimination.

Edited April 14, 2020 by buell47

[DannyK]

50 minutes ago, buell47 said:

I think your case can only be solved with your dealer.

If he also lost his patience, you can also try here:

info@szkingsong.com

Tel:86-755-23193478

Fax: 86(755)-23193477

Address:
Bldg 7 No 71 Xinghu Rd Hongxing 8th Ind-park Yutang Guangming Shenzhen China 518132

 

If this does not lead to success I can only recommend you to send the wheel back and buy a Gotway, then you are safe from such discrimination.

Go ahead and continue to throw out those sarcasms^^ All the reason this post is gettin this long and worked up is becos some you folks making ridiculous suggestion about how kingsong is not beta testing on new users or that they are testing it only on a consent from specific users. This just makes you look:

1. Kingsong worshiper

2. Kingsong staff or related

3. simply selfish lot to the core who's happy that the new firmware is out but you will be getting a fully safety proven one after the beta testers(us) experience it first^^ so trying to get the lab rat to shut up so that this beta testing could be done in silence and kingsong provide u with that new firmware proven as soon as possible. 

p.s. unless you have a sight problems you can see from posts above that Ive talked to the staff like loong time ago and he admitted my concern and said he will address it. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by DannyK

[null]

Your agressive stance is frankly disgraceful, this forum is a place for civil exchanges, not to throw tantrums and attack anyone who don’t prop up your theories.
This place doesn’t owe you anything.

Good we got the ignore user function, it’s sadly becoming increasingly useful lately as it seems the public change from a passionate users to something else.

Edited April 14, 2020 by null

[DannyK]

12 minutes ago, null said:

Your agressive stance is frankly disgraceful, this forum is a place for civil exchanges, not to throw tantrums and attack anyone who don’t prop up your theories. This place doesn’t owe you anything.

Good we got the ignore user function, it’s sadly becoming increasingly useful lately as it seems the public change from a passionate users to something else.

All this fuss and this post getting this worked up started from those who threw sarcasm and saying that im making speculations! Thats like telling me im making this whole thing up only on conjecture. And thats how this got so messy trying to prove that I am talking based only on facts even posting pictures of the conversation with staff member. And most importantly I have living evidences around me with that new update!

So what is my theory are u saying? That some of us are beta testers? How can that be a 'theory'? Many times have I said the ones who have this update so far that I know around me have never agreed to it or didnt even know about the update happened. 

Even after explanations over explanations saying its a fact, they would simply just continue throwing those sarcasms and tell me to stop making speculations. Would you not get more on edge if you were in my shoes? 

[Unventor]

In very short and objective as I can put it to you @DannyK.

In all the countries I know (which isn't all on the planet) warranty claims are done between the consumer buyer yo the seller/dealer.

If there are things you are unhappy with you need to direct that to the seller. In some cases the manufactor might assist directly but most laws make a purchase only between buy and seller. 

So because you have a different FW version it us not the same as you have a broken/faulty product. If you don't want the things updating firmware then ther is only one option to buy GW they are the only company doing locked FW. Imho that us not ideal but if this is so important to you GW would be a better choice. 

About freedom to choose a fw. Imho and this is something people don't know what goes on in fw and fault reporting would say. We want freedom to chose. I do not think this is correct one bit. You can only choose wisely if you have the full picture and end users never do. 

But back to top this community cannot help you. You need to work this out between you and the seller. This is also why picking the place you buy from is important.

[DannyK]

13 hours ago, Unventor said:

In very short and objective as I can put it to you @DannyK.

In all the countries I know (which isn't all on the planet) warranty claims are done between the consumer buyer yo the seller/dealer.

If there are things you are unhappy with you need to direct that to the seller. In some cases the manufactor might assist directly but most laws make a purchase only between buy and seller. 

So because you have a different FW version it us not the same as you have a broken/faulty product. If you don't want the things updating firmware then ther is only one option to buy GW they are the only company doing locked FW. Imho that us not ideal but if this is so important to you GW would be a better choice. 

About freedom to choose a fw. Imho and this is something people don't know what goes on in fw and fault reporting would say. We want freedom to chose. I do not think this is correct one bit. You can only choose wisely if you have the full picture and end users never do. 

But back to top this community cannot help you. You need to work this out between you and the seller. This is also why picking the place you buy from is important.

Ok I dont think you have understood my point at all of all these posts. I clearly have not stated the new firmware is having issues nor that I dont like having firmware systems.

I was pointing at the ethical problem that they are releasing the firmware to only partial group to see if there would be issues or not. I do understand why they do this but that just might make those partial group which in this case are new buyers feel like they are being tested with the prototype firmware for the good of others. Especially when there has been no option for the users to go back to previous firmware, to sensative users like me it doesnt feel safe with trying the new one. And you should know how these companies had issues with firmwares before and all.

Plus there is whatsoever no information about what changes has been made with the new firmware. Customers have right to know what changes there are with updates.

p.s. I just got an answer from Jack that from newest kingsong app, you can now choose to roll back to fully tested firmwares that has been out. 

Edited April 15, 2020 by DannyK

[DannyK]

19 hours ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

I think this is more to the point, KS tested it internally and think it's stable, and are slowly rolling it out close to home, which is indeed a good stragegy.

However, users should be able to pick which firmware version they want to install, especially given a bad firmware can make a wheel useless or dangerous (the point @DannyK is making). Users should not have to wait for weeks for the manufacturer to write/test an update when a previous version would solve the problem this minute.

The reason I left Segway and went with an EUC is because I bought 2 hoverboards (a significant investment) that go 15 MPH (17 max) and through forced firmware upgrades now have two boards that have firmware bug fixes but only go 9 MPH (10.5 max). That's not the product I purchased, it's 2/3 of it. Further, the speed limit I can set is 2 to 6.5 MPH, so instead of Segway allowing users to set a reasonable speed limit (like 8 or 12) they have either "slow" (9 MPH) or "really slow" (6.5 MPH or less). Segway has the most advanced firmware I've seen--but I can no longer use the product I purchased, so I will no longer purchase their products.

I'm looking forward to @Seba's update to EUC World so we can create firmware repositories and flash as needed, instead of having a downed wheel if a firmware is found buggy. (Thank you good sir.)

(You should not post private conversations in public forums without permission from all parties in the conversation.) 

Thank you for understanding my point! Possibly you are the only one that gets it. 

Good news I just got a message from Jack that the newest official kingsong app will now allow rollback to previous versions that are only fully tested and proven. 

Edited April 15, 2020 by DannyK

[CampDylan]

I just want this random, slow tilt-back issue to go away on mine.  FW 1.07.  Every time I get past 22mph I get a very slow, gradual, incremental tilt-back until I have to slowly slow down to at least 12mph before it nearly dumps me on my ass backward.  Anyone experience this?  Doesn't always happen but more often than not.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

2 minutes ago, CampDylan said:

I just want this random, slow tilt-back issue to go away on mine.  FW 1.07.  Every time I get past 22mph I get a very slow, gradual, incremental tilt-back until I have to slowly slow down to at least 12mph before it nearly dumps me on my ass backward.  Anyone experience this?  Doesn't always happen but more often than not.

If you did the Bluetooth patch and calibration correctly and it still occurs, I assume you need a new control board just like I did last year. Your problem honestly doesn't look like a Bluetooth problem or a wrong calibration.