MTen3 67v 420Wh vs 84v 325Wh

[BoseHeadphones]

On 11/24/2019 at 10:37 AM, Marty Backe said:

Well, hopefully the North America sales are enough 

Gotway has made three generations of this wheel, so I'm hopeful that they'll continue making the Mten3 and eventually its replacement.

I'll put one more vote on the Mten4 pile. An upgraded Mten3 that smooths out the usability edges (trolley, handle ergonomics, liftoff switch) would be an instant buy. A little more power and battery would be welcome, but for the short jaunts I use it for downtown the ergonomics are more important.

[Ben Kim]

I don’t quite understand why there is a $400 difference between a 84V 325Wh vs a 84V 512Wh. The markup is ridiculous considering it is a 20s2p configuration (40 batteries), the only difference being the cells used (retail price difference $1.50 each so $60 total).  The BMS should be identical between the two models along with the control board.

With that said, I’d vote the 84V 325Wh. 67V anything is a waste. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Ben Kim

[Meulebeest]

On 11/24/2019 at 6:03 PM, Jason McNeil said:

Gotway rep said that apart from North America, the MTen3 has not sold well in other regions. Manufacturer logic in producing a new Wheel product is based on historical/current sales demand, rather than what we would prefer of, 'let's make something really cool, then people will buy', AKA the Tesla pickup truck approach.

I hope some product (or marketing / sales) responsibles go a bit further than this reasoning (historical/current sales), for future product development.
Certainly if you are at the beginning of some hype cycles and early adopter stages ... it can be the correct product at the wrong moment or for the wrong audience.
(But of course you need means/resources to develop something)

To be honest and imho, we are but the first niche batch of buyers, whereas current manufacturers aim for deeper adoption with a bigger audience :-)
And our segment will always tend to compare with the newest / boldest / bravest / most spec-ed product out there.
 

[Aneta]

What's the 84V/425Wh model listed on GW site?

http://www.kebye.com/productinfo/371629.html

Is it currently sold?

[Jason McNeil]

On 12/11/2019 at 2:44 AM, Ben Kim said:

I don’t quite understand why there is a $400 difference between a 84V 325Wh vs a 84V 512Wh. The markup is ridiculous considering it is a 20s2p configuration (40 batteries), the only difference being the cells used (retail price difference $1.50 each so $60 total).  The BMS should be identical between the two models along with the control board.

With that said, I’d vote the 84V 325Wh. 67V anything is a waste. 

Gotway pricing is somewhat whimsical. In this low season, the GW factory does not want to layoff employees, so they discount selective products to keep the lines churning. Normally the 84v/325Wh & 67v/420Wh is $150 more at the wholesale level. 

7 hours ago, Aneta said:

What's the 84V/425Wh model listed on GW site?

http://www.kebye.com/productinfo/371629.html

Is it currently sold?

The price difference is so small, about $50, that there's not much point buying a 425Wh.  

On 12/4/2019 at 10:52 PM, BoseHeadphones said:

An upgraded Mten3 that smooths out the usability edges (trolley, handle ergonomics, liftoff switch) would be an instant buy

MTen3 Trolley kits are now in stock. In the process of revamping the site/part section over the holiday period, there's 1000+ parts SKUs that need to be added...  

On 11/25/2019 at 7:03 PM, 7th1rt3en said:

The IPS i5 would be perfect for me if their QC was up to par and the design was not so susceptible to damage from going through puddles. Lots of sprinklers along my short commute

Seems that IPS are out of business, unfortunately, they haven't responded to several requests for ordering a new batch of the i5s.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Jason McNeil

[Cory Brown]

2 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Gotway pricing is somewhat whimsical. In this low season, the GW factory does not want to layoff employees, so they discount selective products to keep the lines churning. Normally the 84v/325Wh & 67v/420Wh is $150 more at the wholesale level. 

 

Does this mean that this low price would only be available for a limited time?

 

Also, I definitely love the idea of a cheaper mTen3. Would love to have 2 for dual wheel tricks or short rides with the girlfriend, so I also support the idea of having a BOGO deal of some sort (if possible).

As far as 84V vs 67V, I have to agree that torque should be one of the main deciding factors. The point made about charger consistency was also a good one.

[Michael Tucker]

84V please! Higher voltage seems to have better responsiveness with Gotway wheels, not just higher top end. Also this endeavor seems a bit sketchy as the only change to reach 325wh is a different battery cell (perhaps of lower quality) to reach nearly half price. If the goal is to keep the factory working, a discount on the 512wh's would be preferable. The MTen3 already had a quality control problem with their battery packs...see @Marty Backe's MTen3 burned out video. 

That cut-off switch is a requirement on any new Gotway wheel, even the new 70lb monster has it!!!!

[Jason McNeil]

19 hours ago, Cory Brown said:

Does this mean that this low price would only be available for a limited time?

This batch of the 67v/420Wh & 84v/325Wh will be offered at the reduced price, while the stock holds out. The 67v/420Wh is $599, while the 84v/325Wh is $650, this reflects the GW pricing—I know it doesn't make much sense from a materials basis, but GW set the wholesale prices... 

15 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

The MTen3 already had a quality control problem with their battery packs...see @Marty Backe's MTen3 burned out video. 

For the past 18 months, I have requested that the conducting junction between the two twenty cell pack halves are double layered. Apart from the Marty's MTen3, I'm not aware of any other cases that have had this failure before. Based on our defect data, the MTen3 has an extremely low rate of failure, compared to other models.  

Edited December 14, 2019 by Jason McNeil

[PLEASE_DELETE]

Deleted.

Edited March 18 by PLEASE_DELETE

[Ben Kim]

4 hours ago, /Dev/Null said:

I think it's really great to have both options.  Any idea when we'll be able to buy these?  Any possibility of the 325wh (I'm not holding my breath) being 2 removable packs of 162.5wh so we can take them on the plane?  I often travel with my family & IIRC you can bring up to 170wh/person, no?

Edit:  It's actually 160wh, maximum 2
Edit2:  Are the 84v & 67v going to be the same brand/type of battery cells?  If they are different, can you let us know what the difference is?

It’s actually one pack housed in a separate black enclosure within the wheel. Taking this wheel apart is reasonably easy though, it’s a fairly light pack so shipping it USPS priority should be reasonably cheap, at least within the USA. 

[Aneta]

7 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

The 67v/420Wh is $599, while the 84v/325Wh is $650

What are the cells used in these? And the same question for existing 512Wh model.

[Ben Kim]

9 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

This batch of the 67v/420Wh & 84v/325Wh will be offered at the reduced price, while the stock holds out. The 67v/420Wh is $599, while the 84v/325Wh is $650, this reflects the GW pricing—I know it doesn't make much sense from a materials basis, but GW set the wholesale prices... 

For the past 18 months, I have requested that the conducting junction between the two twenty cell pack halves are double layered. Apart from the Marty's MTen3, I'm not aware of any other cases that have had this failure before. Based on our defect data, the MTen3 has an extremely low rate of failure, compared to other models.  

Sorta like how the 84V monster costs the same as the 100V, even though the 100V has 16 less cells in it. 

[Ben Kim]

4 hours ago, Aneta said:

What are the cells used in these? And the same question for existing 512Wh model.

they claim the 512Wh has Sanyo GA 3500mAh (actually 3350-3400mAh)  cells,  (72V * 7Ah = 504Wh) 

I would guess the 325Wh would be a 2250mAh cell of some sort. (72V * 4.5Ah = 324Wh) That capacity screams Sincpower though since I’m unaware of any other cell with that capacity in an 18650 form. 

Edit- Turns out Panasonic CH cells (gray wrapper) is also 2250mAh, which is a plausible cell given its 10A max discharge comparable to the Sanyo GA. I do hope these cells are the ones being used because Sincpower batteries have horrible cycle life. 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Ben Kim

[Aneta]

28 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

they claim the 512Wh has Sanyo GA 3500mAh (actually 3350-3400mAh)  cells,  (72V * 7Ah = 504Wh) 

I would guess the 325Wh would be a 2250mAh cell of some sort. (72V * 4.5Ah = 324Wh) That capacity screams Sincpower though since I’m unaware of any other cell with that capacity in an 18650 form. 

Edit- Turns out Panasonic CH cells (gray wrapper) is also 2250mAh, which is a plausible cell given its 10A max discharge comparable to the Sanyo GA. I do hope these cells are the ones being used because Sincpower batteries have horrible cycle life. 

Given $350 price difference between 84V/512Wh Sanyo cell version ($1000) and 84V/325Wh Unknown cell version ($650) and that it's 20s2p, that comes to $350/40 = $9 per cell difference. Wait, wha?!?!

(take into account that it makes absolutely no difference to the worker assembling batteries what brand cells are used, if the configuration is the same)

This shows that 512Wh is ridiculously overpriced. Sanyo GA go for 3-4 bucks a piece even for end consumers, not bulk purchases. See https://eu.nkon.nl/sanyo-18650ga.html

This Unknown Brand 2200mAh cells must "cost" negative 6 dollars to make sense of this pricing.

Has Gotway lost its mind?

[Ben Kim]

1 hour ago, Aneta said:

Given $350 price difference between 84V/512Wh Sanyo cell version ($1000) and 84V/325Wh Unknown cell version ($650) and that it's 20s2p, that comes to $350/40 = $9 per cell difference. Wait, wha?!?!

(take into account that it makes absolutely no difference to the worker assembling batteries what brand cells are used, if the configuration is the same)

This shows that 512Wh is ridiculously overpriced. Sanyo GA go for 3-4 bucks a piece even for end consumers, not bulk purchases. See https://eu.nkon.nl/sanyo-18650ga.html

This Unknown Brand 2200mAh cells must "cost" negative 6 dollars to make sense of this pricing.

Has Gotway lost its mind?

Considering Apple charges $300 for $7 worth of flash memory in their iPhones, can you blame them? They don’t sell enough of these at scale to reduce margins. 

[Mono]

1 hour ago, Aneta said:

This Unknown Brand 2200mAh cells must "cost" negative 6 dollars to make sense of this pricing.

Has Gotway lost its mind?

Prices are not created from the costs, but as attempted maximizer of the margin, where the demand is some (non-linear) function which decreases with increasing price.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Mono

[Aneta]

15 minutes ago, Mono said:

Prices are not created from the costs, but as maximizer of the margin, where the demand is some (non-linear) function which decreases with increasing price.

Exactly, that's why they're launching these "budget" versions, because the demand for $1K version is too low, they hope to maximize the profit with these.

[Ben Kim]

10 minutes ago, Aneta said:

Exactly, that's why they're launching these "budget" versions, because the demand for $1K version is too low, they hope to maximize the profit with these.

considering it only uses 40 cells, i would safely guess the margins on the mten3 are very high at $1000 per. 

[Mono]

1 minute ago, Ben Kim said:

considering it only uses 40 cells, i would safely guess the margins on the mten3 are very high at $1000 per. 

The interesting number is not so much the margin per unit but the margin per unit times the number of sold units.

[Aneta]

10 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

considering it only uses 40 cells, i would safely guess the margins on the mten3 are very high at $1000 per. 

Oops, I meant "total profit from sales", not "profit per unit". Yes, the margin per Mten3 is ridiculous, Apple-like. That's why I don't buy neither. (except for that iPhone SE for $60) Mten3 should be no more than $600 with Sanyo 512Wh battery, and correspondingly less with cheaper cells.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Aneta

[Mono]

59 minutes ago, Aneta said:

Mten3 should be no more than $600 with Sanyo 512Wh battery, and correspondingly less with cheaper cells.

How did you figure that this would maximize the margin? (We established that the price should maximize the margin, right?)

[Mrd777]

I’m still lost on the attention this is getting. What we need is a Mten 4 !

[Aneta]

18 minutes ago, Mono said:

How did you figure that this would maximize the margin? (We established that the price should maximize the margin, right?)

I didn't. It's just the price that would trigger the buy impulse for me, for 512Wh. Anything higher $$ is a straight no. 325Wh version - if it's less than $500. (the difference of $100 for 40pcs. top brand cells is reasonable, too ($2.50/pc.) - not the laughable $350 difference ($9/pc.))

[mrelwood]

Gotway’s impulsive pricing has been brought up before, especially with ridiculous prices for spare parts. But I still wonder how they decide to be that irrational within a product line, such as the Mten. Perhaps they have high hopes for clearing parts inventory, or prefer to use the other battery cell distributor over the Sanyo one.

While on 67/84V, I’m pretty sure I’d go for the bigger battery if I were longing for an Mten, despite being a 67V one. Even if there is a clear difference in sparkyness on a full battery, I’d rather take a bit less spark at full battery and keep it for longer. These are seriously limiting battery sizes for what an EUC could be. My first wheel was a 320Wh 67V one. Yes, it was a slouch, but it was also only good for a max 8 miles per charge. That’s ”nothing”, unless the purchase is indeed intended to be used just for a few miles at a time.

[Aneta]

17 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

67v/420Wh & 84v/325Wh

What's the configuration of each?

I don't understand something, the numbers don't add up. 67V is 16s and 84V is 20s. 84V has 40 cells, so it's 20s2p, and it would be 2200mAh cells for 325Wh. Then how many cells does 67V have? If it's 16s2p, that's only 32 cells, or 3550mAh per cell for total of 420Wh. There are no 3550mAh cells available, unless there's some rounding mistake? Are they the same Sanyo GA 3500mAh as in 512Wh version? Then by removing only 8 cells, they dropped the price by $400? 50 dollars per cell? Or did they somehow manage to shove 8 more cells into the case, for 48 cells altogether, 16s3p? Then each cell must be 2365mAh. Strange number again.

Confusing.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Aneta