MTen3 67v 420Wh vs 84v 325Wh

[mrelwood]

 

6 hours ago, Aneta said:

by removing only 8 cells, they dropped the price by $400? 50 dollars per cell?

You’ll get over it eventually.  Sale price doesn’t directly reflect manufacturing costs. This is the math you might want to focus on instead:

8 hours ago, Mono said:

The interesting number is not so much the margin per unit but the margin per unit times the number of sold units.

[Jason McNeil]

23 hours ago, /Dev/Null said:

I think it's really great to have both options.  Any idea when we'll be able to buy these?  Any possibility of the 325wh (I'm not holding my breath) being 2 removable packs of 162.5wh so we can take them on the plane?  I often travel with my family & IIRC you can bring up to 170wh/person, no?

Edit:  It's actually 160wh, maximum 2
Edit2:  Are the 84v & 67v going to be the same brand/type of battery cells?  If they are different, can you let us know what the difference is?

Will be available from mid-January, with the ACM pedals fitted. Cell count on the 325Wh is 40x, same as the 512Wh, but with the smaller capacity Panos 2.25Ah cells. 67v/420Wh uses the same Sanyo GA cells in a 16s2p configuration. We're not likely to see an modular battery MTen3 in the foreseeable future—KS, GW, IM don't believe there's a large enough market for the development cost of this type of machine. 

[PLEASE_DELETE]

Deleted.

Edited March 18 by PLEASE_DELETE

[Michael Tucker]

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

Will be available from mid-January, with the ACM pedals fitted. Cell count on the 325Wh is 40x, same as the 512Wh, but with the smaller capacity Panos 2.25Ah cells. 67v/420Wh uses the same Sanyo GA cells in a 16s2p configuration. We're not likely to see an modular battery MTen3 in the foreseeable future—KS, GW, IM don't believe there's a large enough market for the development cost of this type of machine. 

What about the cut-off switch?!

[Ben Kim]

10 hours ago, Aneta said:

What's the configuration of each?

I don't understand something, the numbers don't add up. 67V is 16s and 84V is 20s. 84V has 40 cells, so it's 20s2p, and it would be 2200mAh cells for 325Wh. Then how many cells does 67V have? If it's 16s2p, that's only 32 cells, or 3550mAh per cell for total of 420Wh. There are no 3550mAh cells available, unless there's some rounding mistake? Are they the same Sanyo GA 3500mAh as in 512Wh version? Then by removing only 8 cells, they dropped the price by $400? 50 dollars per cell? Or did they somehow manage to shove 8 more cells into the case, for 48 cells altogether, 16s3p? Then each cell must be 2365mAh. Strange number again.

Confusing.

your math is wrong. you multiply the nominal voltage by Amp-hours (60x7=420). My guess is the 420Wh model uses Sanyo GA, and yes there are 8 less cells in it. 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Ben Kim

[Aneta]

19 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

your math is wrong. you multiply the nominal voltage by Amp-hours (60x7=420). My guess is the 420Wh model uses Sanyo GA, and yes there are 8 less cells in it. 

I'm confused. I take capacity 420Wh, divide it by nominal voltage 3.7V per cell times 16 cells in series, get amp-hours: 420/(3.7*16) = 7.1Ah, divide it by 2, get 3550mAh if it's 2p config, or by 3, if it's 3p config, get 2365mAh. Where's the error in my math?

Edited December 15, 2019 by Aneta

[Aneta]

2 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

67v/420Wh uses the same Sanyo GA cells in a 16s2p configuration.

Is the controller the same as in 84V version?

[meepmeepmayer]

2*16 cells * 3.7V nominal * 3450mAh per cell = 408.48Wh = "420" Wh. Your problem was trusting the manufacturer-provided numbers But that's how "420"Wh 67.2V packs were always done wherever I know - 2p with 3500mAh(King Song)/3450mAh (Gotway).

As far as I know, Gotway only uses either 2900mAh cells or 3450mAh cells (I wouldn't be surprised if they switched to 3500mAh lately, but historically it only were these two - only two types of 18650s for them to order).

[Aneta]

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 

You’ll get over it eventually.  Sale price doesn’t directly reflect manufacturing costs. This is the math you might want to focus on instead:

Yes, exactly. Sale price can be anything they want. ($1K for 40-cell Sanyo version) It's the sale price times number of units sold that should matter to them. And when the latter is zero because customers are not stupid and figure that they're being charged 400 dollars for 8 extra cells ($50 per $3 cell!!!), they not gonna buy that $1K ripoff, and total profit becomes zero, too. And as we know from math, when positive function is zero at two points, there's a maximum somewhere between them.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Aneta

[mrelwood]

13 hours ago, Aneta said:

Yes, exactly. Sale price can be anything they want. ($1K for 40-cell Sanyo version) It's the sale price times number of units sold that should matter to them. And when the latter is zero because customers are not stupid and figure that they're being charged 400 dollars for 8 extra cells ($50 per $3 cell!!!), they not gonna buy that $1K ripoff, and total profit becomes zero, too.

...which is when they’ll likely buy the $600 version, = profit. That’s how customer ”choice” has always been steered.

If not, it’ll take them 2 weeks to ”design” and start shipping a new GW model, = certain profit, in the past, present and future.

[Ben Kim]

57 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

...which is when they’ll likely buy the $600 version, = profit. That’s how customer ”choice” has always been steered.

If not, it’ll take them 2 weeks to ”design” and start shipping a new GW model, = certain profit, in the past, present and future.

few predictions for 2020:

- a wheel over 100V

- a 14x3 100V wheel

- Kingsong releasing a 100V wheel. 

 

[Aneta]

Gotway royally screwed pricing up. There's just no good choice:

- 512Wh/84V, 40pcs. top-level Sanyo GA 3500mAh cells, $1000 - ludicrously overpriced

- 325Wh/84V, 40pcs. low-level Panasonic 2250mAh cells, $650 - who wants cells with less than 3000mAh capacity in their wheel?! (2250 for EUCs is really low level, ~3000 is mid-level) It's almost like having a lead-acid battery in there.

- 420Wh/67V, 32pcs. top-level Sanyo GA 3500mAh cells, $600 - who wants 67V in 2020?! That's not only 20% lower speed, but 20% lower thrust margin at the same speed, too. And probably most people have 84V chargers already.

 

 

[ir_fuel]

16 minutes ago, Aneta said:

Gotway royally screwed pricing up. There's just no good choice:

- 512Wh/84V, 40pcs. top-level Sanyo GA 3500mAh cells, $1000 - ludicrously overpriced

- 325Wh/84V, 40pcs. low-level Panasonic 2250mAh cells, $650 - who wants cells with less than 3000mAh capacity in their wheel?! (2250 for EUCs is really low level, ~3000 is mid-level) It's almost like having a lead-acid battery in there.

- 420Wh/67V, 32pcs. top-level Sanyo GA 3500mAh cells, $600 - who wants 67V in 2020?! That's not only 20% lower speed, but 20% lower thrust margin at the same speed, too. And probably most people have 84V chargers already.

You presume people think all of this through?

 

"who wants cells with less than 3000mAh capacity in their wheel?"

Pretty sure plenty of people don't care about this.

 

"And probably most people have 84V chargers already."

There is a charger included, so that doesn't matter.

 

People will look at usable range and price and decide based on that. Well, actually, they first decide they want an Mten3, see that the top model is too expensive but that the version just below is a lot cheaper and has enough battery for the distance they want to use it: one unit sold.

It's the same with iPhone memory, it's the same with car engines. That's just how it works. Top priced versions are for those with lots of disposable income and to make the versions below appear "affordable" to get "nearly the same thing", all while keeping the actual production cost difference between both to an absolute minimum.

And to consider $1000 overpriced you need to see what other wheels you can get today for $1000. "Overpriced" is always relative to the market.

[ir_fuel]

In a way this wheel has no competition. Which other wheel with this range and speed can you carry along in a normal backpack? Pretty hard to put a "non overpriced" price on it, in that case.

[Darrell Wesh]

2 hours ago, Ben Kim said:

few predictions for 2020:

- a wheel over 100V

- a 14x3 100V wheel

- Kingsong releasing a 100V wheel. 

 

A 100v 14” wheel with a 3” tire for sure! Take my money!

[7th1rt3en]

I'm interested in specs on these units. Weight, top speed, range. I don't think I would opt for a less efficient battery...so the 420wh unit is looking good for $600. It's my first wheel anyway, 67v might be fine. 84v for a little more might have been the sweet spot and I would have paid more for it, but oh well... Are we sure the 512wh unit will not have a price drop? What are the chances they are clearing inventory for a new model? These will be on the site soon?

Edited December 16, 2019 by 7th1rt3en

[meepmeepmayer]

Offtopic stuff (removable batteries and plane-suitable EUCs) split into its own topic:

[meepmeepmayer]

5 hours ago, 7th1rt3en said:

Are we sure the 512wh unit will not have a price drop?

End of January is Chinese new year. If there are price drops and discounts, it will be then (from the Chinese sellers - Aliexpress etc. - nothing to do with ewheels.)

5 hours ago, 7th1rt3en said:

What are the chances they are clearing inventory for a new model?

The mten3 isn't a mass seller. Personally, I wouldn't bet on a new model any time soon.

-

Range: 20-25Wh/km or 32-40Wh/mile is a realistic estimate. Maybe closer to the lower number (= more range) due to the lower average speed. So divide the battery size by 33 for a realistic range estimate (result in miles).

-

Weights:

...if you can't look them up somewhere...

A battery cell weighs about 50g. 84V batteries come in multiples of 20 cells. 67.2V batteries come in multiples of 16 cells. Gotway uses either 2.9Ah cells or 3.45Ah cells. (edit: maybe not for these special models, I'm confused).

Battery size = number of cells * 3.7V * 3.45Ah (or 2.9Ah or whatever the size is)

For example, 16*3.7V*2.9Ah = 171.68Wh is the smallest size (67.2V with one group of 16 cells). 2*20*3.7*3.45 = 510.6Wh is the biggest model (84V with 2 groups of 20 cells). These numbers will not be exactly what is advertised!

This way, you can guess the battery configuration of a given wheel from the battery size (especially since you know the voltage). 16 or 2*16 cells for 67.2V, 20 or 2*20 cells for 84V (I don't think there's 3*xx). You only need the number of cells.

If you also have the known weight of a certain model (probably the 510Wh? it has 40 cells), you can guess the weight of the other models by adding or substracting the weight from the different battery count.

Enjoy(or don't waste your time).

At most, the difference between 1*16 and 2*20 cells is 1.2kg/2.7lbs, so the weight differences don't matter much anyways.

-

Top speeds:

Top speed should be identical (at least in theory) for all 67.2V models and all 84V models, with the 84V having a higher top speed. The speed beeps (the ones you cannot disable = the ones that you should not ignore) depend on the battery charge (= battery voltage). They are between 39kph (full) and 30kph (10% battery) for the 84V mten3 and between 31kph and 24kph for the 67V mten3, see here.

There's a Youtube video of someone crashing a 84V mten3 at 38kph or so. You should stay away from the "speed beep" speeds, especially with smaller batteries. At what speeds the beeps appear in reality (the beeps mean you should stay a bit below the speed range they indicate) I don't know.

Edited December 16, 2019 by meepmeepmayer

[Ben Kim]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

39kph (full) and 30kph (10% battery) for the 84V mten3 and between 31kph and 24kph for the 67V mten3, see here.

There's a Youtube video of someone crashing a 84V mten3 at 38kph or so. You should stay away from the "speed beep" speeds, especially with smaller batteries. At what speeds the beeps appear in reality (the beeps mean you should stay a bit below the speed range they indicate) I don't know.

I got it up to 24.4 MPH with a nearly flat tire, and the scary part was the pedals dipped forward which appears to mean that I was about to cutout but caught it early.  The NYC guys were talking about that, if the pedals start to dip forward pull back immediately.

[Mrd777]

Putting the acm pedals on the mten3 really makes a difference. A perfect match, I highly recommend them.

[MexicanBatman]

What is the top speed of these

 

my 84V 512wh has a zero load speed of 57km/h

 

I’ve taken it to 33.5km/h

 

even had it doing 30km/h on grass
 

but now I’ll just take it easy 

 

also how do you turn the silly lights off, no matter the setting in the gotway app I can’t turn them off, and it won’t connect to darknessbot

 

lastly confirming they are tubeless? They tyre says so, just wondering if I should put some stans in it just in case

 

[Marty Backe]

3 hours ago, Trevor Phillips said:

What is the top speed of these

 

my 84V 512wh has a zero load speed of 57km/h

 

I’ve taken it to 33.5km/h

 

even had it doing 30km/h on grass
 

but now I’ll just take it easy 

 

also how do you turn the silly lights off, no matter the setting in the gotway app I can’t turn them off, and it won’t connect to darknessbot

 

lastly confirming they are tubeless? They tyre says so, just wondering if I should put some stans in it just in case

 

I know someone who has ridden theirs at 38km/h.

The LED lights are always on. The only Gotway wheel that allows you to change the LED status via their app is the Nikola.

The original models used a tubeless tire with a tube. It's pretty easy to know whether you have a tubeless model - look at the valve stem. Tubeless tires have the value integrated with the wheel/motor. With a tubed tire you can clearly see gaps between the stem and wheel/motor hole.

[MexicanBatman]

Cool mines tubeless

 

odd about the LEDS

 

in the gotway app on my MSX the disco lights are turned off when I select LED0

 

but the Mten3 it wont even change, off well I’ll put some electrical tape over it

 

i hate disco lights

[Marty Backe]

2 minutes ago, Trevor Phillips said:

Cool mines tubeless

 

odd about the LEDS

 

in the gotway app on my MSX the disco lights are turned off when I select LED0

 

but the Mten3 it wont even change, off well I’ll put some electrical tape over it

 

i hate disco lights

The LEDs on my original MSX cannot be controlled by the app. I guess the firmware has been updated.

I believe the Mten3 is the only Gotway wheel that does not allow you to configure the ring LEDs. They are always on.

You could do what I did and cut the wires. Mine runs silent 

[MexicanBatman]

Thanks for the tip, my MSX is very new I’m sure I saw a October 2019 build date somewhere 

 

ill definitely look into it snipping the wires soon

 

strill trying to figure out the tyre pressure, the sidewall is so stiff being a tubeless tyre and I like it a bit squishy

that aside I rode 28km on it and the calfs are more sore than 80km on the MSX

 

i suppose it’s a good thing, means they are getting a solid workout

 

also how fun is this thing, it’s like I’ve gone from a 5/10 rider to an 8/10 in skill, then I hopped on my MSX When I got home and I couldn’t ride it around the house like I previously could LOL

Edited December 21, 2019 by Trevor Phillips