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chrisjunlee

Kingsong 16X review/wheelog/journal 🐸

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Posted (edited)

About myself: I'm about 5 weeks new to electric unicycles.

Body weight: 140 lbs, 5'4.

My unique perspective: A lightweight coming from a 10" wheel as the norm. Also one of the first 30 people in the US to get the production 16X 😎.

Edited by chrisjunlee

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Posted (edited)

== Day 1 - Tues, 7/30/2019 ==

Missed my Fedex delivery :( Luckily was able to borrow a truck to drive 26 miles to the Fedex distribution center!

image.png.82a3c5a285d859e1765be74d84a6a186.png

 

[ Initial Impression ]

The 16X is quite larger than my massive tank of a MCM5. Luckily I had a chance to try out the Nikola last week, so I wasn't completely shocked. At 24.5 kg, this wheel is more than 1/3 my bodyweight!

Valve stem is installed in the wrong direction of course. Very narrow clearance, you're 100% going to want a valve stem extender.

image.png.d623f1bd4ac23bf7cc190671af59794b.png

Tire pressure arrived at 35 psi.

I take it out for a spin, and I notice a feet tickling vibration, most prominent when braking or going downhill. This shakes my confidence, and half a mile in, I decide to walk the wheel back home.

A couple hours later, it dawns on me that this vibration is as normal as motor whine. Coming from an MCM5, I expected an even smoother, luxurious ride. Hence I misinterpreted the vibration as an issue with the wheel. I gain enough confidence to take it out for a couple of miles.

== Kingsong Speed Unlock Glitch ==

To bypass the 200 km speed throttler: in the Kingsong app, set alarm 1 and 2 to 0 kmh. Set alarm 3 and tiltback to whatever you want.

Edited by chrisjunlee

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

At this point, I haven't figured out how to go uphill from a standing start. As in, I'm not able to apply enough force to get this wheel up, so I end up walking it up hills.

  • Start parallel to the hill and turn into the incline (or decline, starting downwards can be more tricky). On steeper hills that's the only way to go.
  • Just stand on your toes. You just have to do it. Your 65kg isn't that light. No grabbing needed, just literally standing on your toes and going for it. It can also help to put pressure on the pedal while one foot is still on the ground, barely before it starts moving. Then get on and push. A foot position with the feet unusually far back helps, so the toes can push right on the front of the pedal. (Same for downhill, feet forward and the heels push the back of the pedals down.)
  • You can grab the shell with your legs for better leverage.
  • Worst case: grab the shell with your hands and push it forwards/down, if it is high enough to reasonably reach. Maybe the extended handle on the 16X works too.

The wheel is strong enough, you just have to get it to lean by any means. Starting parallel is the easiest though.

Edited by meepmeepmayer

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said:

At this point, I haven't figured out how to go uphill from a standing start. As in, I'm not able to apply enough force to get this wheel up, so I end up walking it up hills.

I concur with @meepmeepmayer but will add:

Think of how you would quickly manually pedal a bicycle to acceleration from rest at the start of a hill.

The bicycle body leans side to side repeatedly, because you are trying to position each rotating pedal peak in an optimal angle so as to maximize leverage and take advantage of your full bodyweight force downward, and not just trying to use pure muscle, which is inevitably weaker and less efficient than using bodyweight.

In EUC, our pedals don't move, so you need to angle the EUC body for each press, which some riders will refer to as "always be carving", but this is not quite correct, as you are not really trying to carve/turn/slalom, you are really just trying to angle the EUC for the most advantageous initial press, then move and angle to the next foot, as just trying to hold one long press is not as powerful as quick left-right pedal push bursts.

So in practice:

  • tilt the wheel body like you are turning, but your body is relatively over the wheel center of gravity.
  • Outer Bodyweight Stabilizer Foot: with your straightened outer-turn-side leg, load & plant the good majority of your bodyweight on that pedal, concentrated on the heel. you shouldn't fall, because the wheel body is tilted to compensate, very much like how the EUC trick guys ride one-legged. (this fake one-leg position also helps eliminate the dreaded "high speed wobble")
  • Inner Accelerator Foot: then, with your bent inner-turn-side leg/foot, apply pressure to taste. Do not lean your torso too far forward (not safe for possible faceplant cutouts), but rather tip-toe straight up for increasing force for acceleration.
  • then, switch to the other turn direction, rinse, repeat.

Ultimately, we have to do this because our bodies are not optimally designed to press the fronts of the pedals, as our whole body stands over our heels, which would mean braking when our feet and body sit fully erect, upright, and flush on the EUC pedals.

What the above does is angle the EUC body in a manner that gets your bodyweight (centered by the hip), more efficiently over the fronts of the pedals where they can press harder, and in a more controlled manner.

Edited by houseofjob

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

I concur with @meepmeepmayer but will add:

Think of how you would quickly manually pedal a bicycle to acceleration from rest at the start of a hill.

The bicycle body leans side to side repeatedly, because you are trying to position each rotating pedal peak in an optimal angle so as to maximize leverage and take advantage of your full bodyweight force downward, and not just trying to use pure muscle, which is inevitably weaker and less efficient than using bodyweight.

In EUC, our pedals don't move, so you need to angle the EUC body for each press, which some riders will refer to as "always be carving", but this is not quite correct, as you are not really trying to carve/turn/slalom, you are really just trying to angle the EUC for the most advantageous initial press, then move and angle to the next foot, as just trying to hold one long press is not as powerful as quick left-right pedal push bursts.

So in practice:

  • tilt the wheel body like you are turning, but your body is relatively over the wheel center of gravity.
  • Outer Bodyweight Stabilizer Foot: with your straightened outer-turn-side leg, plant the good majority of your bodyweight on that pedal, concentrated on the heel. you shouldn't fall, because the wheel body is tilted to compensate, very much like how the EUC trick guys ride one-legged. (this fake one-leg position also helps eliminate the dreaded "high speed wobble")
  • Inner Accelerator Foot: then, with your bent inner-turn-side leg/foot, apply pressure to taste. Do not lean your torso too far forward (not safe for possible faceplant cutouts), but rather tip-toe straight up for increasing force for acceleration.
  • then, switch to the other turn direction, rinse, repeat.

Ultimately, we have to do this because our bodies are not optimally designed to press the fronts of the pedals, as our whole body stands over our heels, which would mean braking when our feet sit flush on the EUC pedals.

What the above does is angle the EUC body in a manner that gets your bodyweight (centered by the hip), more efficiently over the fronts of the pedals where they can press harder, and in a more controlled manner.

Wow. Now that is good instruction. Thank you so much. Enjoy your cookie 🍪 😘

Thank you @meepmeepmayer as well. I found myself trying to build up momentum parallel or downhill first, so good to know this is normal to do :)

Edited by chrisjunlee

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Posted (edited)

== Day 3 - Wed, 8/1/2019 ==

It was one of those rare beautiful sunny days in Seattle, so took off from work early to soak in that vitamin D ☀️.

I've been having a hard time figuring out the tire pressure on this wheel. Dropped by REI and picked up a pricey high accuracy pressure gauge and a hand pump. 

image.png.cb7f351d59c4d8064ff94a78a626a9e3.png

Took measurements with the high I compared the readings to my stand pump, and wow, the stand pump was waaay off. 

My current wheel pressures:

  • Gotway mten3: 28 PSI. feel: rock hard - perfect, since I want this to be a low speed, turn on an ant nimble
  • Gotway MCM5: 28 PSI! feel: cushy - almost as if I have suspension! bizarre how the same PSI feels so different on this tire (width maybe?)
  • Kingsong 16X: was at 18 PSI. Bumped it to 30 PSI. Feel: hard. almost rock hard as the mten3, but a tiny bit of bounce. I couldn't tell the difference between 18 and 30 PSI. 

Went out to my favorite place to ride aggressively (criteria mostly being out of public view). I haven't figured out a good workflow to edit videos with music, so be sure to mute:

@houseofjobhas been coaching me, and pointed out my stance needs adjustment (rear foot is too angled out, needs to be parallel or pointed in - but that feels so odd on my knees @_@). I'm glad we can pinpoint these things before it becomes too deeply ingrained.
image.png.60f929282008a454cd82e6e8a8390fbb.png

 

Edited by chrisjunlee

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10 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Gotway mten3: 28 PSI. feel: rock hard - perfect, since I want this to be a low speed, turn on an ant nimble

That's not much. I just inflated mine to approx. 40.

 

Did the same with my KS16X. Going to test it now and see what it gives.

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18 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

@houseofjobhas been coaching me, and pointed out my stance needs adjustment (rear foot is too angled out, needs to be parallel or pointed in - but that feels so odd on my knees @_@). I'm glad we can pinpoint these things before it becomes too deeply ingrained.

LOL, no, you misread me I think. I was just noting mainly your rear foot heel bing being narrower than your rear foot toe. I advocate the opposite. Also, if you can get that front foot out wider, not against the shell that would be good (albeit not easy to do).

But also, the asymmetric stance will help you learn to be freer with your foot positioning and mobility mid-ride (I rode like this for a period of my learning/exploration process as well), but ultimately it is limited for maneuvering in both directions, so you should slowly focus on coming back to parallel and centered on the pedals, but not hugging the wheel body, and if you can, heels wider than the the toes, for the ultimate hinge-turning action versatility IMHO (I know, I know, video)

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Thanks very nuch for the journal. Would it be possible, at the beginning or end of each post, to indicate the firmware version you are using?

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9 hours ago, SamSuffit said:

Thanks very nuch for the journal. Would it be possible, at the beginning or end of each post, to indicate the firmware version you are using?

Sure. The firmware is still 1.01 since Kingsong hasn't released anything yet.

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200 miles on the 16X, and so far, I don’t like it. This boring wheel is worth at most $800 to me. 

If I wanted something so conservatively tuned and boring, I would’ve just went with a class 1 electric bicycle. Yes, class 1, not class 2 - that’s how underpowered this wheel feels.

I like the idea of a 3” tire. What I don’t like is how we were duped with a rock hard tire. 

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57 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

200 miles on the 16X, and so far, I don’t like it. This boring wheel is worth at most $800 to me. 

If I wanted something so conservatively tuned and boring, I would’ve just went with a class 1 electric bicycle. Yes, class 1, not class 2 - that’s how underpowered this wheel feels.

I like the idea of a 3” tire. What I don’t like is how we were duped with a rock hard tire. 

i’ll buy it for $1000 then😁

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5 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

I like the idea of a 3” tire. What I don’t like is how we were duped with a rock hard tire. 

Yeah, I have to agree with you here. We got the official statement that KS was switching to the CST tire and then we didn't get what we paid for. I'm still enjoying the wheel, but it seems extremely difficult to dial in with this tire. Off-road it's decent, but on the road it's squirrely, for me changing the tire pressure doesn't really alter that effect.

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A rock hard tire? 

Try the Z10 :lol:

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8 hours ago, ray rokni said:

i’ll buy it for $1000 then😁

It means I would've paid at most $800, not that I would sell it for $800.

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3 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

A rock hard tire? 

Try the Z10 :lol:

Right? Z10, mten3, onewheel: all rock hard :)

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3 hours ago, HarpMudd said:

Yeah, I have to agree with you here. We got the official statement that KS was switching to the CST tire and then we didn't get what we paid for. I'm still enjoying the wheel, but it seems extremely difficult to dial in with this tire. Off-road it's decent, but on the road it's squirrely, for me changing the tire pressure doesn't really alter that effect.

OMG yes! As for the squirrely part, I just assumed it was me. Lowering the tire pressure did make it a lot stabler, at the cost of responsiveness. 

What's your weight and what pressures have you tried?

I'm tempted to try 15 PSI, but I don't even know where to begin if I pinch flat this inner tube. Apparently it's an unusual size you need to special order + I can't think of a shop that would work on this.

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What do you mean with "squirrely"?

The thing I experience is wobbling under hard braking, which I have zero issues with on my Z10. Doesn't give me confidence when going fast.

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2 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

What do you mean with "squirrely"?

The thing I experience is wobbling under hard braking, which I have zero issues with on my Z10. Doesn't give me confidence when going fast.

For 30 psi, I get wobbly around 20 mph. Lowering it to 20psi, I can go to 25 mph. I think that's more me than the wheel though, but I haven't had the same issue on the MCM5.

And braking, yes! Unless I brake slowly with a gradual center of mass shift back, I get wobbles. Again, I figured it's me and my technique (I don't have a symmetrical stance, one foot forward, one foot back). However, on the MCM5, I can max brake with one foot (rearmost foot).

I'm trying a more symmetrical stance, with both feet same distance and parallel. I'm not sure if it's helping since I'm re-learning this stance.

It's good to know you're getting wobbles as well during braking coming from the Z10! I heard the Z10 has very slow braking - could it be a placebo effect? As in, if you were to effectively brake slowly on the 16X, the wobbles disappear?

But then again, I vaguely recall when they fixed the Kuji-wobs issue, @US69 or some other KS representative said something to the extent of: "see, we fixed it! And don't you dare mention the wobbles, it's normal during braking"

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said:

But then again, I vaguely recall when they fixed the Kuji-wobs issue, @US69 or some other KS representative said something to the extent of: "see, we fixed it! And don't you dare mention the wobbles, it's normal during braking"

Those are not comparable. I am talking left-right wobbling, instability. On that video the EUC was rocking back to front

Edited by ir_fuel

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

200 miles on the 16X, and so far, I don’t like it. This boring wheel is worth at most $800 to me. 

LOL, you make these harder comments AFTER you sell the wheel, not before :lol::lol:

1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said:

For 30 psi, I get wobbly around 20 mph. Lowering it to 20psi, I can go to 25 mph. I think that's more me than the wheel though, but I haven't had the same issue on the MCM5.

And braking, yes! Unless I brake slowly with a gradual center of mass shift back, I get wobbles. Again, I figured it's me and my technique (I don't have a symmetrical stance, one foot forward, one foot back). However, on the MCM5, I can max brake with one foot (rearmost foot).

I'm trying a more symmetrical stance, with both feet same distance and parallel. I'm not sure if it's helping since I'm re-learning this stance.

Just keep messing around, keep riding.

I've found after riding many, many miles, and just f-ing around with feet position, body angling, I've stumbled most of the best techniques for EUCs I ride with today.... mostly subconsciously mining the technique I already know from skiing.

One-press braking IMHO just isn't the best, gotta combo it with successive left-right press power peaks, drift the legs forward + butt cock back, and s-curving. You can get away with straightline, 1 press braking on wheels like the MCM5 cuz of the lesser wheel weight and lower top speed.

1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said:

It's good to know you're getting wobbles as well during braking coming from the Z10! I heard the Z10 has very slow braking - could it be a placebo effect? As in, if you were to effectively brake slowly on the 16X, the wobbles disappear?

But then again, I vaguely recall when they fixed the Kuji-wobs issue, @US69 or some other KS representative said something to the extent of: "see, we fixed it! And don't you dare mention the wobbles, it's normal during braking"

I find the guys who complain about the Z10 braking are the type that just wanna jam once and straightline, which won't cut it really on most of the top model, heavier wheels in today's market, esp last minute brakes.

The Z10 braking is on the weaker side of today's generation of wheels, yes. But not anywhere near where braking technique can't supplement it.

1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said:

But then again, I vaguely recall when they fixed the Kuji-wobs issue, @US69 or some other KS representative said something to the extent of: "see, we fixed it! And don't you dare mention the wobbles, it's normal during braking"

I still don't believe them after falling for these fixed claims, until I can see for myself. There are still too many mixed reports on early 16X guys with bobble.

 

Edited by houseofjob

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1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said:

It's good to know you're getting wobbles as well during braking coming from the Z10! I heard the Z10 has very slow braking - could it be a placebo effect? As in, if you were to effectively brake slowly on the 16X, the wobbles disappear?

No. I can do decent braking from 40km/h without issues on my Z10. Doing the same deceleration on my KS16X gives me wobbles. So much that I honestly don't dare push it that hard when there is traffic around. Afraid that an emergency braking might wobble so hard I get thrown off. I have 100% confidence in my braking skills on the Z10 though.

And I have no idea on how to get rid of them. I tried bending knees, straightening knees, clamping the shell, not clamping it, changing foot position etc etc. Nothing changes it.

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