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Kingsong 16X review/wheelog/journal 🐸

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1 minute ago, houseofjob said:

I still don't believe them after falling for these fixed claims, until I can see for mysel

The euc in his video was oscillating front-back. Wobble for me is left-right.

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33 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

The euc in his video was oscillating front-back. Wobble for me is left-right.

Ah, then left-right wobble is typically technique, not the wheel. Gotta stabilize with one leg bearing more weight over the hip.

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I’ve tried tire pressures 23-29psi, same result. I can go like a bat out of hell on grass and never get a wobble, but on the road it comes out of nowhere at higher speeds. As soon as it comes I can straighten my legs a bit to get rid of it, but that takes away from the laid back riding style and carvability. Never had the issue on other wheels and have been riding confidently over one year. Like I said, this wheel is way fun, but the tire is an absolute piece of poop. I’ve yet to see a single comment on the forum yet that says OMG I love this bait and switch 16X tire.

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18 minutes ago, HarpMudd said:

I’ve yet to see a single comment on the forum yet that says OMG I love this bait and switch 16X tire.

I know right! 🤣

What's your bodyweight again? We need to get a tire pressure chart, complete with bodyweights and feedback on different tire pressures.

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43 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

I know right! 🤣

What's your bodyweight again? We need to get a tire pressure chart, complete with bodyweights and feedback on different tire pressures.

145 (66kg)

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1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said:

Before I knew it, I was in the zone. I was no longer thinking, just aggressively carving at speed, my movements taking on a rhythmic life of their own. I was definitely pushing the envelope, and a lot of things clicked.

I see you found your Bonsai moment! A month from now (if you still have the wheel) your skills will improve tenfold. You just got to have patience. And don’t forget to  breath!

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1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said:

you can initiate turns at speed quite gracefully by swiftly focusing all your weight on the inner heel. The speed you apply it is like you're squashing a bug

  • if you're feeling your turns are limited by this wheel's gyro effect, you have yet to discover this technique in turning. You don't need to do acrobatic arm waving or crazy weight throwing to turn this wheel.
  • this inner heel method has a similar feeling to motorcycle countersteering, in the sense that the amount of input force = amount of turning. This analogy is complete with the wheel maintaining the new line until you provide another steering input.
  • continuing with the motorcycle countersteering analogy: it's most effective if you focus on one side. As odd as it sounds, for motorcycles, it's much more effective turning with only one hand pushing vs the other hand pulling to help. When executed properly, I feel as if my other foot is just dangling weighlessly
  • this wheel's sweet spot for carving is ~20+ mph. It carves marvelously and effortlessly with the technique lined above
  • if you chain these heel pumps while coming to a stop, you get a dramatic increase in braking efficiency. The efficiency is a result of a two factor effect: increasing regenerative braking distance via S-curve + stronger motor response (I have two hypothesis on motor response). Essentially, you are chaining micro 5" carves
  • with that heel pumping, micro carving technique, you no longer get  braking wobbles.
  • straight line hard deceleration on this wheel results in wobbles, at that point you can start micro carving and get the wobbles to work for you
  • hard to explain, but essentially, braking wobbles are a non-issue: you either don't get them by using the heel pumping technique, or they work for you to help you begin your heel pumps
  • I am still doing a staggered/asymmetrical stance. Feet is roughly parallel though.

tl;dr this wheel is a 20+ mph carving machine, braking wobbles are a non-issue once you learn how to leverage heel pumpin

Thanks a lot for this journal. However I'm not sure to understand your technique for carving and braking. Would it be possible to show it in video?

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17 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

No. I can do decent braking from 40km/h without issues on my Z10. Doing the same deceleration on my KS16X gives me wobbles. So much that I honestly don't dare push it that hard when there is traffic around. Afraid that an emergency braking might wobble so hard I get thrown off. I have 100% confidence in my braking skills on the Z10 though.

And I have no idea on how to get rid of them. I tried bending knees, straightening knees, clamping the shell, not clamping it, changing foot position etc etc. Nothing changes it.

I usually ride without my legs touching EUC's - with the KS16x, I get wobbles breaking hard unless I do stabilize with a leg or slightly lean into a crave turn.  Hope that helps?

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It seems to be a general issue here, those wobbles under braking. Still need to experiment more to see if I can avoid them. @chrisjunlee   @Mike Paolini I'll see what I can do with your tips.

 

Still wonder why the wheel behaves like that.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

It seems to be a general issue here, those wobbles under braking. Still need to experiment more to see if I can avoid them. @chrisjunlee   @Mike Paolini I'll see what I can do with your tips.

 

Still wonder why the wheel behaves like that.

 

 

The peddles are larger - so you muscle memory of foot placement is off from where it should be I expect (certain that is the case for me).   The tire is wide and large (but not rounded or heavy like the z10).  The magnets are strong.   And the wheel is tall so the balance point is different and higher (z10 put the weight at the axel).  I think the weight placement is the biggest factor and why I have to brace.  

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Higher CoG = less stability. Makes sense

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@ir_fuel

I just went for a hard fast ride with wobbles in mind - I had taken 2 days off to rest my legs - and I have to say, yea now that I'm looking for it, at higher speeds with no carving,  this beast wobbles more than any other.

I had to keep tight grip of it to tame it on the roads I was on today - I think previously I had chalked it up to being leg tired and rider problems.   Yes I could tame it, but man it took work.  I had to really grip with my feet and legs - which is not something I ever do on other EUC's.

Looking down at the tire while riding I was able to see what appeared to be wobble on it - I'm now wondering if it is actually tire choice or PSI or maybe even a balancing issue.    I'm at 40 PSI, going to have to play with that as I don't like having to grip it with my feet and legs...  (Carving is just fine when you have space, and does seem to address it for me, which is why I likely didn't realize it was maybe the wheel).

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, SamSuffit said:

Thanks a lot for this journal. However I'm not sure to understand your technique for carving and braking. Would it be possible to show it in video?

It's tough to show on video, especially since I don't have a filmer.

I can give you an approximate path to discover this:

  1. Carve a lot, at speed (15+ mph). When possible, the first 30 minutes, I 'calibrate' myself to a wheel by carving between road painted lines (responsibly with absolutely no cars, bikes, or pedestrians around). As the speed increases, you need to carve harder. 
  2. Focus on what your body and feet is doing (just observe). Yes you're turning your hips/shoulder, but you'll feel a weight shift cadence to your feet. With harder carves, there is a pronounced inner heel jab.
  3. This can take hundreds of miles to feel out, don't rush it, just be a mindful observer of #2. Be patient.

I first started doing this on the MCM5 at about 200 miles, and it was effective enough to cause a hip twist style traction loss. There is one other technique I do on the MCM5 which is complete muscle memory, in order to bail on a turn quickly and stand the wheel upright to go straight - that too is a heel shift, but I don't remember the timing of it.

As for heel pump braking: carve tighter and tighter turns while slowing down to a stop (< 10 mph) - this naturally means you will be using your heels to carve. I would say the cadence is 2-4 heel pumps per second, and each carve diameter is maybe 10" (25 cm), which get tighter and tighter. When you're doing this, you will feel a dramatic spike in motor resistance (maximum braking), that's your cue to switch heels.

I've probably forgotten how to do this already since last night, and it's something that will arise spontaneously as you ride and let your brain/muscle-memory process more training data. Being aware of the technique does accelerate the process, so you reading this has already planted that initial seed for your brain to start working on.

In that regard, @houseofjob is my accelerator, and I would recommend reading anything and everything he's posted.

Edited by chrisjunlee

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6 hours ago, Daniel-Son said:

I see you found your Bonsai moment! A month from now (if you still have the wheel) your skills will improve tenfold. You just got to have patience. And don’t forget to  breath!

Baka! Not like I like this wheel or anything *storms off*!

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Posted (edited)

@chrisjunlee I used to do inner heel plant too, as that came more natural, but ultimately, it's not a stable as planting outer heel.

These days at the start of a ride, I tell myself to plant the outer heel, then gradually press on the inner turn pedal, but for a deeper lean, I go tip-toes so my body is not in a position for automatic faceplant. The whole feeling is that you hook and load the majority of your bodyweight over that hip and on the outer heel, feeling almost like you're going to one-leg it (leg may kiss the shell side, but doesn't lean), then with that stabilization in place, you apply a more controlled pressure with the other inner foot/toe.

Any wobbles usually means I've failed to do the above, along with operating the wheel leaning on a turn angle, not upright. So at the onset of a wobble, I immediately coach myself in my head back to this, and this always resolves any traditional speed wobbles (again, not the 16X bobbling issue).

Edited by houseofjob

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Morning Folks :-)

It‘s hard to jump in, as probably my opinion will be seen as biased. But:

As @houseofjob said, left/right wobbles on braking are mostly technique, and/or getting used to another shell form.

I had such braking wobbles on all my high speed wheels in the beginning, especiall on fater tires.

So at the beginning MSX and Z10 give me a harder time, because of braking wobbles.

Now? dont have any problems at all anymore on this wheels.

I can only advise, get used to it...change the tire pressure, experiment a bit.

It will go away!

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9 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

You don't need to do acrobatic arm waving or crazy weight throwing to turn this wheel.

But don't dismiss the arms, as what I always say, they move your hips more effectively, and the hips are the center and maneuver of your body with any sport, not just EUC.

We often think we move our hips enough, but the reality is, usually we aren't moving them enough, hence the arms.

And the arm motion does not need to be dramatic, unless you are really trying to pump and stab the pedals to max.

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9 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

== Day 7 - Mon, 8/5/2019 ==

I'm starting to like this wheel.

It might be placebo, but I feel the tire has worn in and gotten softer. Additionally, I've lowered my pressure to 18 PSI, and things are feeling a lot better.

Took it out for a midnight joy ride, without any destination, just me, the wheel, and the empty streets of a summer night.

Before I knew it, I was in the zone. I was no longer thinking, just aggressively carving at speed, my movements taking on a rhythmic life of their own. I was definitely pushing the envelope, and a lot of things clicked.

It's hard to form a coherent narrative, but here's some bullet points:

  • you can initiate turns at speed quite gracefully by swiftly focusing all your weight on the inner heel. The speed you apply it is like you're squashing a bug
  • if you're feeling your turns are limited by this wheel's gyro effect, you have yet to discover this technique in turning. You don't need to do acrobatic arm waving or crazy weight throwing to turn this wheel.
  • this inner heel method has a similar feeling to motorcycle countersteering, in the sense that the amount of input force = amount of turning. This analogy is complete with the wheel maintaining the new line until you provide another steering input.
  • continuing with the motorcycle countersteering analogy: it's most effective if you focus on one side. As odd as it sounds, for motorcycles, it's much more effective turning with only one hand pushing vs the other hand pulling to help. When executed properly, I feel as if my other foot is just dangling weighlessly
  • this wheel's sweet spot for carving is ~20+ mph. It carves marvelously and effortlessly with the technique lined above
  • if you chain these heel pumps while coming to a stop, you get a dramatic increase in braking efficiency. The efficiency is a result of a two factor effect: increasing regenerative braking distance via S-curve + stronger motor response (I have two hypothesis on motor response). Essentially, you are chaining micro 5" carves
  • with that heel pumping, micro carving technique, you no longer get  braking wobbles.
  • straight line hard deceleration on this wheel results in wobbles, at that point you can start micro carving and get the wobbles to work for you
  • hard to explain, but essentially, braking wobbles are a non-issue: you either don't get them by using the heel pumping technique, or they work for you to help you begin your heel pumps
  • I am still doing a staggered/asymmetrical stance. Feet is roughly parallel though.

tl;dr this wheel is a 20+ mph carving machine, braking wobbles are a non-issue once you learn how to leverage heel pumping

Mileage: 214 miles, Tire pressure:18 PSI, Firmware: v1.01

braking wobbles are due to bent legs.  if you get the wobbles, just think, straighten your legs, lock them out.  wobbles then goes away.  

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1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

@chrisjunlee I used to do inner heel plant too, as that came more natural, but ultimately, it's not a stable as planting outer heel.

These days at the start of a ride, I tell myself to plant the outer heel, then gradually press on the inner turn pedal, but for a deeper lean, I go toes up so my body is not in a position for automatic faceplant. The whole feeling is that you hook and load the majority of your bodyweight over that hip and on the outer heel, feeling almost like you're going to one-leg it (leg may kiss the shell side, but doesn't lean), then with that stabilization in place, you apply a more controlled pressure with the other inner foot/toe.

Any wobbles usually means I've failed to do the above, along with operating the wheel leaning on a turn angle, not upright. So at the onset of a wobble, I immediately coach myself in my head back to this, and this always resolves any traditional speed wobbles (again, not the 16X bobbling issue).

So let's say you're carving hard to the right. Your left foot would be planted? But also, your center mass is to the left (on outside of turn)?!

I can understand left foot plant, with weight to the right (on inside of turn) - that's motorcycle style.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

braking wobbles are due to bent legs.  if you get the wobbles, just think, straighten your legs, lock them out.  wobbles then goes away.  

That's what I thought too, but it doesn't change a thing.

Edited by ir_fuel

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1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

braking wobbles are due to bent legs.  if you get the wobbles, just think, straighten your legs, lock them out.  wobbles then goes away.  

Exactly! Every time I start to wobble I save myself from death by straightening my legs.

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11 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

== Day 7 - Mon, 8/5/2019 ==

I'm starting to like this wheel.

It might be placebo, but I feel the tire has worn in and gotten softer. Additionally, I've lowered my pressure to 18 PSI, and things are feeling a lot better.

Took it out for a midnight joy ride, without any destination, just me, the wheel, and the empty streets of a summer night.

Before I knew it, I was in the zone. I was no longer thinking, just aggressively carving at speed, my movements taking on a rhythmic life of their own. I was definitely pushing the envelope, and a lot of things clicked.

It's hard to form a coherent narrative, but here's some bullet points:

  • you can initiate turns at speed quite gracefully by swiftly focusing all your weight on the inner heel. The speed you apply it is like you're squashing a bug
  • if you're feeling your turns are limited by this wheel's gyro effect, you have yet to discover this technique in turning. You don't need to do acrobatic arm waving or crazy weight throwing to turn this wheel.
  • this inner heel method has a similar feeling to motorcycle countersteering, in the sense that the amount of input force = amount of turning. This analogy is complete with the wheel maintaining the new line until you provide another steering input.
  • continuing with the motorcycle countersteering analogy: it's most effective if you focus on one side. As odd as it sounds, for motorcycles, it's much more effective turning with only one hand pushing vs the other hand pulling to help. When executed properly, I feel as if my other foot is just dangling weighlessly
  • this wheel's sweet spot for carving is ~20+ mph. It carves marvelously and effortlessly with the technique lined above
  • if you chain these heel pumps while coming to a stop, you get a dramatic increase in braking efficiency. The efficiency is a result of a two factor effect: increasing regenerative braking distance via S-curve + stronger motor response (I have two hypothesis on motor response). Essentially, you are chaining micro 5" carves
  • with that heel pumping, micro carving technique, you no longer get  braking wobbles.
  • straight line hard deceleration on this wheel results in wobbles, at that point you can start micro carving and get the wobbles to work for you
  • hard to explain, but essentially, braking wobbles are a non-issue: you either don't get them by using the heel pumping technique, or they work for you to help you begin your heel pumps
  • I am still doing a staggered/asymmetrical stance. Feet is roughly parallel though.

tl;dr this wheel is a 20+ mph carving machine, braking wobbles are a non-issue once you learn how to leverage heel pumping

Mileage: 214 miles, Tire pressure:18 PSI, Firmware: v1.01

im glad you enjoying the wheel.

so i take it your ideal purchase price is now higher than $800😁😁😁

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26 minutes ago, ray rokni said:

im glad you enjoying the wheel.

so i take it your ideal purchase price is now higher than $800😁😁😁

Yes, my happy price point has gone up to $1200 :D.

On another note, I do feel slight radial oscillations at speed, in soft mode. It feels like the wheel is fighting itself back and forth. When going ~22mph, I would say it's a low 5 hertz oscillation. It's a bit disconcerting if I focus on it, but at this point I've learned to just trust the wheel.

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