My 84-volt Nikola Triumphs, Tribulations, and Failures

[Jon Stern]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Frankly, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Other people have made the same observation of this guy. IMO.

 

3 hours ago, Bob Eisenman said:

Wow...bad tumble...hope the insta360 (and rider) are ok.

The MSX mosfet on the Nikola board was referenced earlier in this topic.

Marty’s wheel was reporting low temperatures.

If heat is poorly distributed in an electronic system, then it's local hotspots that determine the failure (or shutdown) point.

If there's a poor thermal architecture, part of the system (potentially where the thermistor measuring the temperature is) can be close to ambient temperature, while another, critical component is very hot.

Edited June 17, 2019 by Jon Stern

[Harold Farrenkopf]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

The V10F rides like a smaller wheel (which it is), so it feels a bit less stable then the Nikola. Also, the V10F has a higher center-of-gravity which is less than ideal. This is not to say that the V10F isn't a great ride, but I prefer the Nikola to essentially every wheel I own.

The V10f has a 16 x 2.5” tire while the Nikola has a 16 x 3” tire so it isn’t that much different in wheel size. The Nikola is 2” wider than the V10f because it’s batteries are on the side. I haven’t taken mine apart yet to do the battery waterproofing but when I do shortly, I’m going to see what I can do about the heat sink cooling. 

I do like the Nikola headlight and battery capacity and if I had money to spend on another wheel I would get it for sure. 

Btw, what was the production number on your failed wheel?

Edited June 17, 2019 by Harold Farrenkopf

[Bob Eisenman]

25 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

If there's a poor thermal architecture,

The Swedish hill climbing perspective has some encouraging Nikola attributes.

I'm not a big fan of potentially destructive testing.

[Marty Backe]

51 minutes ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

The V10f has a 16 x 2.5” tire while the Nikola has a 16 x 3” tire so it isn’t that much different in wheel size. The Nikola is 2” wider than the V10f because it’s batteries are on the side. I haven’t taken mine apart yet to do the battery waterproofing but when I do shortly, I’m going to see what I can do about the heat sink cooling. 

I do like the Nikola headlight and battery capacity and if I had money to spend on another wheel I would get it for sure. 

Btw, what was the production number on your failed wheel?

If you actually saw the Nikola tire up close you would realize how big the tire is. It's very thick from the rim to the ground (I don't know what that dimension is called). The actual diameter is ~17-5/8 inches. What's the diameter of the V10F tire? It looks huge compare to any other 16-inch wheel I've seen.

I don't know the production number. It was manufactured April 17th 2019.

[MaxLinux]

On 6/15/2019 at 5:57 AM, eddiemoy said:

BTW, with everywheel, you get spark fuses.

My 18XL (my first KS wheel) came with a spare fuse. I really like that, but I wish the 18XL had a little door to replace the fuse. Since I could not find one, am I correct to suppose one must disassemble the wheel if the fuse blows? 

[Marty Backe]

16 minutes ago, MaxLinux said:

My 18XL (my first KS wheel) came with a spare fuse. I really like that, but I wish the 18XL had a little door to replace the fuse. Since I could not find one, am I correct to suppose one must disassemble the wheel if the fuse blows? 

Yes, it is strange that on my KS14S I can replace the fuse by lifting a rubber flap near the USB port (or the charging port, can't remember) but on their other wheels you have to take the wheel apart (not just remove the side cover).

[Harold Farrenkopf]

30 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

If you actually saw the Nikola tire up close you would realize how big the tire is. It's very thick from the rim to the ground (I don't know what that dimension is called). The actual diameter is ~17-5/8 inches. What's the diameter of the V10F tire? It looks huge compare to any other 16-inch wheel I've seen.

I don't know the production number. It was manufactured April 17th 2019.

I roughly measured it to be 17” exactly. 

Usually the last numbers of the serial number could be the actual unit number they made. Just curious whether it was near the start of production where the assembler was just learning or getting tired. Lol

[Marty Backe]

3 hours ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

I roughly measured it to be 17” exactly. 

Usually the last numbers of the serial number could be the actual unit number they made. Just curious whether it was near the start of production where the assembler was just learning or getting tired. Lol

The failure was in the circuit board. That's probably outsourced.

[Simone Malicius]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

The failure was in the circuit board. That's probably outsourced.

woaw been reading for almost an hour looking for... :

@Marty Backedid you get an official reply from them? are they considering your test and try to make sure future Nikola wheel will be checked about that thing? cause our theories are all valid but they should kmow(gotway) that people might consider it too dangerous and move to other brands, well not me newbie on a V5f but you changing wheel often lol 😂👍💯

[Marty Backe]

41 minutes ago, Simone Malicius said:

woaw been reading for almost an hour looking for... :

@Marty Backedid you get an official reply from them? are they considering your test and try to make sure future Nikola wheel will be checked about that thing? cause our theories are all valid but they should kmow(gotway) that people might consider it too dangerous and move to other brands, well not me newbie on a V5f but you changing wheel often lol 😂👍💯

Gotway probably doesn't know that I exist. They really don't interact much outside of China.

This all just happened. I think Jason shot them an e-mail that they may see when they get back to work on Monday.

[US69]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

Gotway probably doesn't know that I exist. They really don't interact much outside of China.

This all just happened. I think Jason shot them an e-mail that they may see when they get back to work on Monday.

Actually on FB you got one of the very seldom reactions from Jane Mo, where she stated that "Lukas" - a kind of suppprt guy, would contact you…..

[US69]

5 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Yes, it is strange that on my KS14S I can replace the fuse by lifting a rubber flap near the USB port (or the charging port, can't remember) but on their other wheels you have to take the wheel apart (not just remove the side cover).

btw:

This is reverted on latest 14S models! There the fuse now also sits back on the board….

[Marty Backe]

1 minute ago, US69 said:

btw:

This is reverted on latest 14S models! There the fuse now also sits back on the board….

[Marty Backe]

6 minutes ago, US69 said:

Actually on FB you got one of the very seldom reactions from Jane Mo, where she stated that "Lukas" - a kind of suppprt guy, would contact you…..

I'm not going to hold my breath for Lukas. I've seen his interactions in the past. He'll probably ask me what my tire pressure was 

They don't even know that I get my Gotway EUCs from EWheels and that Jason is taking care of me.

Anyway, yeah, Gotway reached out to me in a small way 

[US69]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

You might not believe it:

But there have been 14s users "misusing" the "outside fuse"....they -just for Fun, put it in or out, which made the Fuse loose, or they pulled it out, while the Wheel was still powered on and received a  spark. So for security reason it went back to the board… This Fuses are just the very last protection for battery and board and IF they Pop(what you should never see), something such serious happened that your board/battery was in danger.

3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm not going to hold my breath for Lukas. I've seen his interactions in the past. He'll probably ask me what my tire pressure was 

That was a good one, haha....Yeah, or what you had for breakfast….

Totally agree!

[Scatcat]

It's a bit of a sad story, that Gotway for once got it all right with the MSX in terms of durability and dependability. Then they go and screw up again. The whole outfit seems more than a bit happy-go-lucky.

I would like to say to all manufacturers: Don't design for the specs, design with a 50% headroom above the specs. You have no idea what kind of wringer these wheels will be put through. And the customers actually don't care that much if they have to spend a few tenths of dollars more, or even a hundred or two, if in return they know they will not face-plant because some electronic part just hit its limit.

So this time Gotway "promised" that the new design and firmware would make sure the 220s would be plenty good enough - but in reality they weren't. It took just a bit of glue/silicone in the wrong spot, and three MOSFETs went barbecue, while the rest of the board reported no critical temperatures.

The price difference as far as I can see is about ~$5 per MOSFET in retail, which begs the question why they chose to go with the smaller one. Sure there is a difference in footprint, but not that bad.

Also, for those who mount their boards on top of the wheel: Why not take a leaf from Rockwheel, and make the heatsink part of the wheel well? After all, if the heat has nowhere to go, it will stay where it shouldn't.

[Simone Malicius]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Gotway probably doesn't know that I exist. They really don't interact much outside of China.

This all just happened. I think Jason shot them an e-mail that they may see when they get back to work on Monday.

well you don't "exist" until you become a lighthouse for euc community and people will follow you (as most do) i know it takes time and efforts but if you wish I can let my gf translated in Chinese whatever you wanna moan to them 😂 just to be sure they don't lose one word! I'm also sure that Jason will play an important role in this exchange with them! Good luck 👍

[Harold Farrenkopf]

6 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

The failure was in the circuit board. That's probably outsourced.

The failure was not the outsourced board. The failure was the assembly of the board to the heatsink and the failure of care in removing the protective film on the heat sink pad.  Not sure if the heat sink is supplied installed on the board by the outsourced supplier. 

Do replacement boards come with the heatsink attached? 

[meepmeepmayer]

19 minutes ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

Do replacement boards come with the heatsink attached? 

Yes. They come fully assembled (as far as I have seen).

[Rotciv]

@Marty Backe can you check the resistance between all 3 motor leads?

I wonder if the insulation on the windings degraded and caused a short thus blowing the fets. 

[US69]

4 hours ago, Scatcat said:

Also, for those who mount their boards on top of the wheel: Why not take a leaf from Rockwheel, and make the heatsink part of the wheel well? After all, if the heat has nowhere to go, it will stay where it shouldn't.

Just saying: Only the 18A/S has the heatsink not exposed to the tire. All other wheels like 14c/d/s, 16b/s/x, 18l/Xl have the heatsink exposed to the tire or as you say "part of the Wheel"

Only on the 18A/S (Shell design 4 years old) that is just not possible. as there is a big 840wh pack between tire and board. Therefore the 18S has the most massive heatsink i have ever seen, a fan and slots for getting air out on top of the board.

[Marty Backe]

5 hours ago, US69 said:

You might not believe it:

But there have been 14s users "misusing" the "outside fuse"....they -just for Fun, put it in or out, which made the Fuse loose, or they pulled it out, while the Wheel was still powered on and received a  spark. So for security reason it went back to the board… This Fuses are just the very last protection for battery and board and IF they Pop(what you should never see), something such serious happened that your board/battery was in danger.

That was a good one, haha....Yeah, or what you had for breakfast….

Totally agree!

Funny about people taking the fuses out "for fun". Oh well.

I have personally witnessed three KingSong wheels blow their fuses. In two of the cases the wheels had to be walked out, one many miles. The third case (we were in the mountains) we opened the wheel and replaced the fuse with one that I had on me - I carry repair supplies on many rides.

So blown fuses are not extremely rare where I live 

Edited June 17, 2019 by Marty Backe

[Marty Backe]

4 hours ago, Simone Malicius said:

well you don't "exist" until you become a lighthouse for euc community and people will follow you (as most do) i know it takes time and efforts but if you wish I can let my gf translated in Chinese whatever you wanna moan to them 😂 just to be sure they don't lose one word! I'm also sure that Jason will play an important role in this exchange with them! Good luck 👍

Thanks for the translation offer    I'll let Jason communicate directly with Gotway - he obviously has a lot more influence.

[Harold Farrenkopf]

13 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

The V10F rides like a smaller wheel (which it is), so it feels a bit less stable then the Nikola. Also, the V10F has a higher center-of-gravity which is less than ideal. This is not to say that the V10F isn't a great ride, but I prefer the Nikola to essentially every wheel I own.

I measured the centre of gravity an it is at 12.25” above the ground with the original pedals that I will be changing to the msx ones. The centre is slightly below the middle of the INMOTION logo. So it is roughly in the middle of the wheel. 

12 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

If you actually saw the Nikola tire up close you would realize how big the tire is. It's very thick from the rim to the ground (I don't know what that dimension is called). The actual diameter is ~17-5/8 inches. What's the diameter of the V10F tire? It looks huge compare to any other 16-inch wheel I've seen.

I don't know the production number. It was manufactured April 17th 2019.

Measured my tire on the V10f an it is 17 & 1/16”. 

One thing I don’t like about the Nikola is the handle. I think it is too wide to pick up and carry.   The V10f can be easily gripped even with gloves on. You looked like you struggled lifting it over the railing on the road to get to your hill test. 

Im curious now on what the centre of gravity is of the Nikola.  Use a pipe/tube on a table near the edge and open the pedals and place the wheel on the side on the pipe. Align the pipe so it would be parallel to the ground if the wheel was vertical or perpendicular to the vertical axis of the wheel. Then find the balance position of the wheel and then measure that distance of the pipe contact to the ground with the wheel vertical. Obviously you can’t do that now because the wheel is dismantled.  

The V10f likely is getting a bad rap with all the problems with the production but the design might still be comparable to the Nikola except Fort the battery capacity. Maybe give the V10f another spin to compare the ride. But make sure the pedals still have their original v shape. 

[TuN3M@N]

Even also the Z10 had some major issues at the beginning. The day you open the Z10 you see how the internals could be build. None of the other manufacturers are nowhere near ninebot regarding build quality. I think it was Tishawn who said a thing like a EUC could never be overengineered.