Jump to content

My 84-volt Nikola Triumphs, Tribulations, and Failures


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

The failure was not the outsourced board. The failure was the assembly of the board to the heatsink and the failure of care in removing the protective film on the heat sink pad.  Not sure if the heat sink is supplied installed on the board by the outsourced supplier. 

Do replacement boards come with the heatsink attached? 

The replacement control boards include the heat sink. You're correct, I don't know who builds the circuit board and heat sink assembly. I assume that the circuit board / heat sink assembly is made in a separate area from the wheel assembly, but I don't actually know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I have personally witnessed three KingSong wheels blow their fuses. In two of the cases the wheels had to be walked out, one many miles. The third case (we were in the mountains) we opened the wheel and replaced the fuse with one that I had on me - I carry repair supplies on many rides.

So blown fuses are not extremely rare where I live :)

Ok, 3 KS wheels blowed their fuses…...

My guess would be that the blown fuses has Nothing todo with where you live, it is more where you ride the wheels.:) And yeah… i remember blasting on a 3 year old 800Watt KS 16b blowing it's fuses near overheat hill .

At least These KS just blown their fuses, not their mosfets/boards/wires. ;) 

So i still see them as an Advantage....

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, TuN3M@N said:

Even also the Z10 had some major issues at the beginning. The day you open the Z10 you see how the internals could be build. None of the other manufacturers are nowhere near ninebot regarding build quality. I think it was Tishawn who said a thing like a EUC could never be overengineered.

Yet in many ways the Z10 is an inferior wheel in terms of "working quality" So many people have had problems. I have to do a wheel calibration almost every time I ride the wheel.

It may look beautiful inside, but I think the Z10 is one of the most unreliable wheels built in the last year.

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, US69 said:

Ok, 3 KS wheels blowed their fuses…...

My guess would be that the blown fuses has Nothing todo with where you live, it is more where you ride the wheels.:) And yeah… i remember blasting on a 3 year old 800Watt KS 16b blowing it's fuses near overheat hill .

At least These KS just blown their fuses, not their mosfets/boards/wires. ;) 

So i still see them as an Advantage....

All I'm saying is that the fuses do blow and it would be an advantage to have easy access to the fuse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Rotciv said:

@Marty Backe can you check the resistance between all 3 motor leads?

I wonder if the insulation on the windings degraded and caused a short thus blowing the fets. 

The failure of the mosfets was from the plastic film that wasn’t removed on those 3 transistors. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

I measured the centre of gravity an it is at 12.25” above the ground with the original pedals that I will be changing to the msx ones. The centre is slightly below the middle of the INMOTION logo. So it is roughly in the middle of the wheel. 

Measured my tire on the V10f an it is 17 & 1/16”. 

One thing I don’t like about the Nikola is the handle. I think it is too wide to pick up and carry.   The V10f can be easily gripped even with gloves on. You looked like you struggled lifting it over the railing on the road to get to your hill test. 

Im curious now on what the centre of gravity is of the Nikola.  Use a pipe/tube on a table near the edge and open the pedals and place the wheel on the side on the pipe. Align the pipe so it would be parallel to the ground if the wheel was vertical or perpendicular to the vertical axis of the wheel. Then find the balance position of the wheel and then measure that distance of the pipe contact to the ground with the wheel vertical. Obviously you can’t do that now because the wheel is dismantled.  

The V10f likely is getting a bad rap with all the problems with the production but the design might still be comparable to the Nikola except Fort the battery capacity. Maybe give the V10f another spin to compare the ride. But make sure the pedals still have their original v shape. 

The handle on the Nikola looks strange but in reality it works just fine.

I can "feel" whether a wheels center of gravity is "just right" or too low or too high. I don't think I'll bother making measurements - sorry :(

The V10F is a nice wheel, no doubt about it. But it's not a performance wheel like Gotway or the newer KingSong wheels. That's a fact. It's kind of crazy to compare the Nikola to the V10F ;)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

All I'm saying is that the fuses do blow and it would be an advantage to have easy access to the fuse.

10 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

The V10F is a nice wheel, no doubt about it. But it's not a performance wheel like Gotway or the newer KingSong wheels. That's a fact. It's kind of crazy to compare the Nikola to the V10F ;)

I just can agree to all of this!!!

Edited by US69
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

The handle on the Nikola looks strange but in reality it works just fine.

I can "feel" whether a wheels center of gravity is "just right" or too low or too high. I don't think I'll bother making measurements - sorry :(

The V10F is a nice wheel, no doubt about it. But it's not a performance wheel like Gotway or the newer KingSong wheels. That's a fact. It's kind of crazy to compare the Nikola to the V10F ;)

Was it a performance wheel last year? Or is performance wheel criteria based on battery and speed?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

Was it a performance wheel last year? Or is performance wheel criteria based on battery and speed?

I think performance in EUCs is primarily related to speed. The V10F has a top speed of ~25-mph and only for a short period of time when the battery is at 100-percent. And that top speed includes tilt-back.

When the V10F was released, every Gotway wheel made could easily go 25-mph, for a long time. Most could go much faster.

Fast forward a year and the performance wheels are even faster. The Nikola can go 25-mph without any effort, all day long. When I tested the V10F I had to work hard (lots of aggressive leaning) to get it to go 25-mph and it was tilting back on me. It did not feel comfortable or safe to ride much above 22-mph.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I think performance in EUCs is primarily related to speed. The V10F has a top speed of ~25-mph and only for a short period of time when the battery is at 100-percent. And that top speed includes tilt-back.

When the V10F was released, every Gotway wheel made could easily go 25-mph, for a long time. Most could go much faster.

Fast forward a year and the performance wheels are even faster. The Nikola can go 25-mph without any effort, all day long. When I tested the V10F I had to work hard (lots of aggressive leaning) to get it to go 25-mph and it was tilting back on me. It did not feel comfortable or safe to ride much above 22-mph.

Ok, I’m not a speed demon and have it limited to 29kmh. I only ride on streets here in Sarnia Ontario Canada and the laws are not really defined on their legality so I don’t want to attract more attention than I already get. I’ve not seen anyone else in this town of 73k on a euc. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

Was it a performance wheel last year? Or is performance wheel criteria based on battery and speed?

Beside Marty's Argument i have another:

The V10F's board is just not capable of performing using it's power for a longer time. The following Video Shows this very nicely.

Inmotion with a 2000Watt Motor would have needed to make the board/Mosfets/Heatsinks better/bigger. Thats btw a fault other EUC companys have done nearly exact the same(First time using more powerful Motor). They get hot to fast....and then the rider is kicked off the Wheel:

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, US69 said:

Beside Marty's Argument i have another:

The V10F's board is just not capable of performing using it's power for a longer time. The following Video Shows this very nicely.

Inmotion with a 2000Watt Motor would have needed to make the board/Mosfets/Heatsinks better/bigger. Thats btw a fault other EUC companys have done nearly exact the same(First time using more powerful Motor). They get hot to fast....and then the rider is kicked off the Wheel:

 

 

I watch that whole video last night and hence asked questions about the comparisons. The both have similar shapes, weight, trolley handle and wheel size. I know it has an overheating problem and the fix is to improve the heat sink abilities. 

But I was mostly asking about the ride behaviour between the two wheels. I like the V10f ride but all I have to compare it is my old 9b1 C+ beginner wheel. I’m changing the pedals to msx pedals, weatherproofing it and going to try to improve the heat dissipation abilities when I have it apart to see what I can do. Giving up on it just because it tells you to get off when it gets too hot if that is fixable is not going to happen for me. 

Im not an extreme rider but I am 260 pounds an 6’3” so I need a stronger wheel than those that are much smaller. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

Giving up on it just because it tells you to get off when it gets too hot if that is fixable is not going to happen for me. 

Nobody tells you to give up on it!!!

Believe me, i am also no Speed Junkie, not at all, so i am not fixed to max speed, and Overall the V10F is praised for it's smooth and comfortable ride capabilities. When YOU are happy with it and have no Problems at all, totally fine!

It's just that you asked why we wouldnt call it a "Performance" Wheel...and Marty and i tried to explain why we dont feel like it is….and we both have 10 + EUC's to compare. (The ninebot c+ actually is "first" Generation and shouldn't be compared to anything newer than 2017, thats just not fair to the c +)

The "overheat" Thing is not fixable as far as i know….IM tried some different Firmware versions, which cut a bit away the high power, so that it doesnt overheat that fast.

But in the end you cant Firmware fix a Hardware Problem.

 

But as said: When you are happy with it, thats the absolutly most important!

My guess is:If you dont want to go faster than 29kmh....then you will not find a much better Wheel than the V10F!

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just plop something like this in there  ;) 

5087_99_silverstone_heligon_sst_he02_pas

Might be a bit tight fit... :P   No idea of the thermal resistance, apparently PC-coolers are "rated" by the TPD of the CPU, this one supposedly can handle up to 90W passively, on a quick glance didn't see any "real" numbers.

On a more serious note, Fischer Elektronik for example has a largish catalog of heatsinks:   https://www.fischerelektronik.de/web_fischer/public/$configId/fischer/$language/en/$branch/cool/index.xhtml

Edited by esaj
  • Like 2
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, US69 said:

Ok, 3 KS wheels blowed their fuses…...

My guess would be that the blown fuses has Nothing todo with where you live, it is more where you ride the wheels.:) And yeah… i remember blasting on a 3 year old 800Watt KS 16b blowing it's fuses near overheat hill .

At least These KS just blown their fuses, not their mosfets/boards/wires. ;) 

So i still see them as an Advantage....

In case of blowing fuse you risk your health vs control board and performance. 
Because with fuse you need to design in such a way that it will blow faster than board. Again in this case the mosfets could still burn before fuse gets blown, as fault lied mostly in assembly mistake... 

For example I build some circuits (tube headphone amp), where the fuse blow up during start up once in a while (overdraw of capacitor during start up) so I was forced to move to a next larger fuse...

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, esaj said:

Just plop something like this in there  ;) 

5087_99_silverstone_heligon_sst_he02_pas

Might be a bit tight fit... :P   No idea of the thermal resistance, apparently PC-coolers are "rated" by the TPD of the CPU, this one supposedly can handle up to 90W passively, on a quick glance didn't see any "real" numbers.

On a more serious note, Fischer Elektronik for example has a largish catalog of heatsinks:   https://www.fischerelektronik.de/web_fischer/public/$configId/fischer/$language/en/$branch/cool/index.xhtml

Lol. I’ve got a heatpipe heat sink from a laptop that I was going to see how to put tat in there. I know it requires a hardware fix. I have never updated the firmware and it runs fine. 

36791145-D2BC-4541-95DB-A83DE94232D8.jpeg

Edited by Harold Farrenkopf
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Harold Farrenkopf said:

Lol. I’ve got a heatpipe heat sink from a laptop that I was going to see how to put tat in there. I know it requires a hardware fix. I have never updated the firmware and it runs fine. 

36791145-D2BC-4541-95DB-A83DE94232D8.jpeg

I’m also thinking of putting fins on the wheel where the heat sink is to act like a fan as the wheel turns. But I need to figure out the best material for that since it needs to be flexible and shaped to fit in the groove. 

Now I’m  off topic now so I’ll stop 

Edited by Harold Farrenkopf
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well in these theories let me say mine too (lol) 

there could be some sort of air vent in the front? the air would be forced to cool euc due to it's movement! those vents will create a problem with water but I suppose they could create a sort of window to close them (and yes you open it when weather is good and you are going for long rides) 

why not? 

Edited by Simone Malicius
Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, Nils said:

The Nikola is a much better ride in my opinion. Coming from the V10F I expected that the ride would be less comfortable since the V10F is very comfortable. Happily, I found that this wasn't the case. The riding experience definitely suggests a lower center of gravity, it's more of a powerful ball running closer to the ground that you cruise around on. The pedals are superior to the V10F ones in my opinion  - slightly smaller than the V10F's I believe but not much that I notice any difference with my 46 size (US 12.5) feet and the angle is right on for me. I don't ride the V10F after having gotten the Nikola, but had a short ride when a friend tried out my Nikola - wow that felt weird. Very weird feeling mostly due to the pedal which felt super flat and strange. A matter of getting used to the angle of course, but the angle is definitely a good thing in my book. The ride feels much more stable on the Nikola, a result of both the lower center of gravity and the wide tire I'd say. The wide tire makes the wheel want to right itself in a way you don't get with the V10F, so turning is a different affair on the Nikola compared to the V10F. Last but not least the wheel handles both load and speed, and the V10F does not. With the V10F it's frequent beeps and the occasional overloads, and at least I constantly adjusted my riding to cope with this. Not what I want to have to worry about when riding. With the Nikola, I just ride up the climbs and don't worry about it. I'm not a speed demon either, but if need to do some bursts to adjust to traffic for instance it's no worries.

This is compared to the stock V10F of course. If you actually manage to fix the heat dissipation and also replace the pedals you'll no doubt have a different experience, it will be more like another wheel I guess, but some things like the more stable ride experience of the Nikola you won't achieve.

:thumbup:

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, US69 said:

That is a great misconception….

Actually the Ninebot Quality inside the Wheel is Pretty poor. Starting by a over 10%failure rate of the boards…..

Ohh come... until you post sources for reliable figures regarding overall sales figures for ALL markets and in addition to that detailed claim statistics goingt downt to part level :clap3: this is not more then an other online forum bullshit fairytale.

Why is everyone sticking to such kind of statements? Simply stay by the facts and we get a serious discussion.

 

Another Point is the possible failure potential. For sure burned voltage regulators, level problems(never had, didn´t know anyone had), battery drain, different charge levels and so on should not be neglected, BUT even the burned boards did not eject the drivers during ride. I myself do not know of any case in which his happened. 

It frightens me that Nils said "The Nikola is a much better ride in my opinion" over the V10F and Marty likes it. Serious… this thing is not able to read current as well as temperature in the correct way. There is no cooling concept at all... And NO a closed compartment air cooling is not a concept. At this point it doesn´t matter how it rides. With this configuration it is life-threatening not more not less.

Edited by TuN3M@N
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...