Opinion on 14 inch wheels?

[Tom]

So I purchased an IPS Zero a few years ago when they were new and it has served me very well. Having just updated myself on the current EUC scene it looks like 14 inch wheels are no longer common? Is it generally agreed that 16 inch is the new ideal minimum?

I find using my bros 16 inch Ninebot is worlds smoother and makes riding off-road easy and possible to do at speed rather than a slow balance challenge, but I did feel like it was much slower to stop and turn which makes riding it in busy pedestrian areas much harder compared to my IPS Zero.

What is your opinion on 14 vs 16? If I was to upgrade my wheel I think I'd get a 16 inch but would be a shame to loose that turning and stopping advantage.

[sonicslp]

I have a KS14s and love it. I've also ridden larger wheels and like those too. I found the KS14s to be a bit easier to maneuver and it's fast enough for me. I've ridden over 30 miles on a single charge (think I could get close to 40 miles if I tried), so range isn't an issue either. With that said, I will be buying an 18" (haven't decided which one yet) soon.

[Marty Backe]

In a perfect world you would own one wheel from each size.

It's physics - the smaller the wheel the more agile it will be. If agility is number one priority, just upgrade to a better 14-inch wheel. IMO there are only two worthwhile contenders; the KS14S and MCM5. If you remove aesthetics and build quality, the MCM5 is by far the better wheel. More agile and amazingly more powerful. I own both wheels and would let my KS14S go in a heartbeat if I had to pick between the two. That being said, I've really enjoyed my KS14S, but it became antiquated when the MCM5 was released.

The 16-inch form factor is arguably the best generalist wheel. It does everything very well. From there you go smaller or bigger depending on the type of riding that you want to do. There is no perfect do-it-all wheel. So if you must have only one wheel you'll need to live with compromises.

[Shad0z]

14 inch wheels are just a twitchy unstable version of 16 inch wheels. With more responsiveness. I would say only good for portability or tricks

[yourtoys7]

I have 14" MCM5 (super agile, love it) shorter distances, crowded places, this wheel rocks. 19" MSX, longer range, road use, off road etc. 

As @Marty Backe said before, if he could have one wheel it would be 16" ACM, I agree :))

[mrelwood]

15 hours ago, Shad0z said:

14 inch wheels are just a twitchy unstable version of 16 inch wheels. With more responsiveness. I would say only good for portability or tricks

Exactly. Where the 14” is more nimble ends immediately as you lean forward (or pass walking speed). I started on a 16” but I do have a few dozen miles behind me on 14-inchers. Hard work.

My brother rode more than a year on the Zero, and was very hesitant to upgrade to a 16”. He did, after all, and right away started using the EUC a looooot more for travelling to work and everywhere. He rode more in a month than he had on the 14” in a year.

14” is a trick wheel, and requires much more concentration and energy for any travelling. Once you go a week on a 16”, a 14” will feel like a toy.

Edited October 3, 2018 by mrelwood

[LanghamP]

The highest quality 14 incher, the MCM5, is practically the same price as the bigger wheels.

However, 14 inchers have two big advantages over the larger wheels.

--More portable.

--You get more crashes per dollar spent.

The IPS zeros, the S1's, they are just awful wheels, marginal power with small batteries but get on a KS14D and you might enjoy yourself more.

In my opinion being able to easily carry a wheel around is perhaps the sole advantage a 14 incher has, and if you aren't constantly stopping to walk up steps, get on buses, shopping, then a 14 incher is bad news.

Still, most 16 inchers are also a compromise; without having ridden the KS18L, I would think that's the least compromised wheel now being sold especially if the 1600 wh version comes out.

Personally I'd buy a 16 incher if it was my only wheel, or I'd buy 14 and an 18 if I could afford two wheels, although probably the 18L is the first true do it all wheel (in 1600).

[GamingBarbecue256]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

--You get more crashes per dollar spent.

 

LOL

[houseofjob]

On 10/2/2018 at 8:28 AM, Tom said:

I find using my bros 16 inch Ninebot is worlds smoother and makes riding off-road easy and possible to do at speed rather than a slow balance challenge, but I did feel like it was much slower to stop and turn which makes riding it in busy pedestrian areas much harder compared to my IPS Zero.

IMHO, simple wheel diameter is not why you're feeling the difference here between the 16" NB1and iPS Zero, both wheels I've owned.

• Weight: The Zero is 11.3 KG / 25 lbs, vs the 16" NB1, which is 14.5 kg / 32 lbs. This 3.2 kg / 7 lb difference is significant for handling, especially in the case of the 16" NB1, where the lone battery pack is only in one side pad, so this battery weight is not offset on the other side pad (where the board is housed). 
• Body Thickness: The Zero is significantly thinner than the 16" NB1. Combine that with increased weight for the NB1, and obviously, the NB1 will feel more sluggish initially coming from only riding the Zero

In general though, as often gets confused on the forums, handling is not directly related to wheel diameter: wheel thickness is one of the main determiners of handling (as evidenced now by the extreme end with the 4" wide NB1Z). It's just that the standard 14 x 2.125" EUC tires tend to be thinner than, say the standard 18 x 2.5 tires being commonly used now.

• Handling: Wheel thickness, body thickness, overall EUC weight
• Off-road / Potholes / Bad terrain (cruising): Wheel diameter
• Off-road / Potholes / Bad terrain (landing): Wheel thickness, tire composition

 

As to which size wheel to get, I would say one will adjust to most any EUC.

Having owned wheels of all sizes (10-22" diameter, 1.5-4.1" wide), I would say if you encounter any kind of crappy city streets (potholes, etc.) 16" or bigger diameter and 2.5" or bigger width is the bare minimum to be comfortable.

Any smaller or thinner in tire, and you start sacrificing this ideal comfort.

Now, if you're riding on perfect pavement all the time, none of this matters, even the small and thin 14" x 1.5" iPS i5 will feel great.

Edited October 3, 2018 by houseofjob

[Shad0z]

6 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Exactly. Where the 14” is more nimble ends immediately as you lean forward (or pass walking speed). I started on a 16” but I do have a few dozen miles behind me on 14-inchers. Hard work.

My brother rode more than a year on the Zero, and was very hesitant to upgrade to a 16”. He did, after all, and right away started using the EUC a looooot more for travelling to work and everywhere. He rode more in a month than he had on the 14” in a year.

14” is a trick wheel, and requires much more concentration and energy for any travelling. Once you go a week on a 16”, a 14” will feel like a toy.

after i upgraded to msx that is 19.5 inch. 14 inch feels like a joke

[Tom]

4 hours ago, houseofjob said:

 

That's all really useful info, cheers. My bro had previously borrowed my IPS Zero for daily commuter use for a year, when he saw it again after owning a Ninebot he said it felt so lightweight and small it felt like you could pocket it. Which is useful since I had to carry mine a lot more than he did.

Did you find about the Zero is the shape means you can't wedge it between your legs? Only your ankles, so it makes controlling it difficult compared to more "boxy" EUCs. Does yours still work? Lots seem to have the fault with poor quality metal being used for the pedal brackets, causing give and feedback shaking - I fixed mine by hammering a ton of screws into the bracket to wedge the axel in. Pic of the dodgy result.

I will be getting a 16" wheel for sure. Gearbest are selling Ninebot C+ for £240 which is tempting but I'd rather get a newer model.

 

Edited October 3, 2018 by Tom

[LanghamP]

I think the bare wheels such as the IPS zero, S1, MCM5 are quite appropriate for small and slow wheels. They do require you to develop perfect left-right balance and mounting can be extremely difficult are first (first time on the s1 felt impossible) but I find not touching the sides of the wheel to be the most comfortable position, albeit the slowest since even quite small bumps can lose the wheel.

Personally, I take a lot of skate steps to get a bare wheel moving then hop on it, I do see people magically getting on bare wheels but I can't do that.

[Marcglider]

50 minutes ago, Shad0z said:

after i upgraded to msx that is 19.5 inch. 14 inch feels like a joke

I understand why you say this but i can say I did a 13 mile ride this morning on my MCM5 and immediately came home and went out on my MSX for about 8 miles... That MCM5 experience was GREAT FUN!!!!  All the different wheels have their place... 

[who_the]

I commuted thousands of miles in urban traffic over pock-eyed surfaces for over a year on an IPS Zero and KingSong 14C. Counter-intuitively, my serious crashes did not result from potholes or bumps, while on my larger wheels, Tesla and MSV3, I have been brought down several times by evil, vicious potholes (and once, a pine cone!) due to me carrying too much speed and not seeing things in time. I think I was even more aware of pavement situations on my smaller wheels, and combined with lower overall speeds, gave me more time to react and avoid. So the tradeoffs work in all directions.

[Shad0z]

37 minutes ago, Marcglider said:

I understand why you say this but i can say I did a 13 mile ride this morning on my MCM5 and immediately came home and went out on my MSX for about 8 miles... That MCM5 experience was GREAT FUN!!!!  All the different wheels have their place... 

I should have clarifyed it more. The mcm5 is still fun. But for general use and crusing for longer distances. Going up and down bad terrain. Imthe msuper x just is king. While the mcm5 is more playfull. But not as relaxing and stable to ride

[Marty Backe]

4 hours ago, LanghamP said:

I think the bare wheels such as the IPS zero, S1, MCM5 are quite appropriate for small and slow wheels. They do require you to develop perfect left-right balance and mounting can be extremely difficult are first (first time on the s1 felt impossible) but I find not touching the sides of the wheel to be the most comfortable position, albeit the slowest since even quite small bumps can lose the wheel.

Personally, I take a lot of skate steps to get a bare wheel moving then hop on it, I do see people magically getting on bare wheels but I can't do that.

 Clearly you've never ridden an MCM5 

[eddiemoy]

On 10/2/2018 at 8:28 AM, Tom said:

So I purchased an IPS Zero a few years ago when they were new and it has served me very well. Having just updated myself on the current EUC scene it looks like 14 inch wheels are no longer common? Is it generally agreed that 16 inch is the new ideal minimum?

I find using my bros 16 inch Ninebot is worlds smoother and makes riding off-road easy and possible to do at speed rather than a slow balance challenge, but I did feel like it was much slower to stop and turn which makes riding it in busy pedestrian areas much harder compared to my IPS Zero.

What is your opinion on 14 vs 16? If I was to upgrade my wheel I think I'd get a 16 inch but would be a shame to loose that turning and stopping advantage.

do you do a lot of slow riding?  if so you should stick with a 14".  they are much easier to accelerate, stop and change directions.  i can go really slow on my 14D or X3.  i do feel that the 16" isn't terrible when it comes to going slow.  18" you really start to struggle to go slow, but it isn't impossible.  it just takes a lot more effort to go slow on the 18", you spend a lot more energy, get more tired.  whereas on a 14" it is really easy and you don't really break a sweat.  

I opinion is that it has to do with the wheel diameter inclusive of the tire.  as far as i can figure out it has to do with how easy it is to twist the wheel.  when you are going slow, you need to twist, you cannot lean the wheel side to side to "catch" yourself from falling.  imagine how you would go slow on a bike or if you try to stay upright on a bike.  you twist the front handlebars which are to turn the front wheel.  again it is to "catch" yourself from falling.  

if you have an office chair that you can spin on, you can try this experiment to get what i'm saying.  extend both arms as far as you can and spin yourself with your leg then keep your legs up close to you.  while you are spinning take note of how fast you are spinning.  then bring your arms to the middle like how a figure skater does the triple axle.  you will immediately notice your rate of spin goes way up.  now try to put your arms back out.  you slow down again.  physics...  

Also the wheels exterior circumference of 14" vs 18" is about 30%.  meaning the circumference of a 18" wheel is 30% bigger than the circumference of the 14" wheel.  but if you take a 2kw motor on the 18" wheel vs a 800w motor on a 14" wheel, the 14" wheel seems more powerful.  even though the 18" wheel is more than 250% more powerful.  14" with the 800w motor accelerates faster and stops faster.  but yet the 18" wheel is only 30% bigger.  

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

[mkygod]

tbh, my only EUC experience is on my 14D. I just like how zippy it feels. I can just dart in and out like a hummingbird. I feel it has the advantage in more confined places. 

But one drawback is that if you hit a bump, it feels prone to wobbling. I imagine that a bigger wheel would be less prone to wobbling just due to the increased gyro affect of having more spinning mass. 

[Marcglider]

59 minutes ago, mkygod said:

But one drawback is that if you hit a bump, it feels prone to wobbling. I imagine that a bigger wheel would be less prone to wobbling just due to the increased gyro affect of having more spinning mass. 

While this seems to make sense, I can tell you most wobbles are caused by the rider and not the wheel... my best example for myself is that on all my wheels, I find if I bend my knees and "squat down" in a motion like I am tying my shoes, all my wheels wobble... this is definitely rider induced, may be more or less on different size wheels, but it seems to do it on all sizes... actually it has gotten better but I know the issue and avoid doing it... now that you brought it up, I am going to work on that and see if I can eliminate it... 

[mkygod]

7 minutes ago, Marcglider said:

While this seems to make sense, I can tell you most wobbles are caused by the rider and not the wheel... my best example for myself is that on all my wheels, I find if I bend my knees and "squat down" in a motion like I am tying my shoes, all my wheels wobble... this is definitely rider induced, may be more or less on different size wheels, but it seems to do it on all sizes... actually it has gotten better but I know the issue and avoid doing it... now that you brought it up, I am going to work on that and see if I can eliminate it... 

Yes, i know the feeling. I tried to squat down to sit on my 14D while riding and its virtually impossible to do because it gets way too wobbly.

But what i meant was if you go over a speed bump too fast, or roll off a curb, I think a bigger wheel would be able to do that with less wobble, regardless of the skill of the rider. Mainly because it just takes more to upset a more massive wheel in rotation.

Edited October 4, 2018 by mkygod

[Marcglider]

1 minute ago, mkygod said:

Yes, i know the feeling. I tried to squat down to sit on my 14D while riding and its virtually impossible to do because it gets way too wobbly.

But what i meant was if you go over a speed bump too fast, or roll off a curb, I think a bigger wheel would be able to do that with less wobble, regardless of the skill of the rider.

I have a 14D also and never had a wobble problem with it... but just general physics yes, bigger wheel is more stable, wants to go straight and harder to turn at speed... I still think 16" is the best all around size for everything... I sold it but I loved my 16S, put 670 miles on it, the Tesla is becoming my favorite for zipping around, but the most fun is a Z10 for me right now, it takes more effort but it's a blast to ride.

[Marty Backe]

7 hours ago, mkygod said:

Yes, i know the feeling. I tried to squat down to sit on my 14D while riding and its virtually impossible to do because it gets way too wobbly.

But what i meant was if you go over a speed bump too fast, or roll off a curb, I think a bigger wheel would be able to do that with less wobble, regardless of the skill of the rider. Mainly because it just takes more to upset a more massive wheel in rotation.

Out of all my wheels, the 18-inch ones are more susceptible to wobbles than the larger and smaller wheels. That's been my experience although I haven't rigorously studied it. 

[houseofjob]

19 hours ago, Tom said:

Did you find about the Zero is the shape means you can't wedge it between your legs? Only your ankles, so it makes controlling it difficult compared to more "boxy" EUCs. Does yours still work?

I wasn't a big fan of the Zero due to the underpowering for my bodyweight (esp. when hard braking) and lack of speed, so I sold it a few months after purchasing. 

The Zero was too small/short to hug with your legs, plus the pedals were relatively small-ish. But for almost every EUC size, I never really squeeze the sides with both my legs at the same time, preferring to have my legs wide, only contacting one side at a time with my straightened outer turn leg. The smaller, thinner 14" EUCs are the easiest to turn because, with your feet wide, you can just pivot-swing the EUC body side-to-side between your legs, instead of fully leg-weight leveraged turns.

Edited October 4, 2018 by houseofjob

[Afeez Kay]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Out of all my wheels, the 18-inch ones are more susceptible to wobbles than the larger and smaller wheels. That's been my experience although I haven't rigorously studied it. 

Unrelated topic sorry, but Marty, been trying to get hold of you. In LA from the 9th. Will be awesome to say hi and meet in person ? how do I get in touch offline. In New York now, from London

[Marty Backe]

31 minutes ago, Afeez Kay said:

Unrelated topic sorry, but Marty, been trying to get hold of you. In LA from the 9th. Will be awesome to say hi and meet in person ? how do I get in touch offline. In New York now, from London

Hi Afeez.  If that's the 9th of October it may be tough to meet up unless you're going to be here for a couple of weeks. My day schedule is not conducive to outside activities and the weekend of the 13th I'll be participating in an all day group ride in the mountains.