Is bigger better?

[Designated_david]

Hi all, been reading for a while, but first time poster. 

I'm a new rider, and I just bought a KS-14S 840Wh cycle.  I have been playing around with it since Tuesday when it arrived from EWheels.com.  The first day, I spent about an hour or so falling off of the thing.  The second day, I put some air in the tire, and tried again, and discovered the art of foot placement.  For me, placing my feet farther forward, with my ankles nearer to the wheel center, and then placing my feet more outward on the pads seems to give me much more stability.  That, and looking straight ahead, or through turns, does help stability immensely.  After having taken a break on Friday and most of Saturday, I tried again Sunday, and made a huge stride in my riding...only to be put off by a moderate fall involving a knee cap and a sprained toe.  I'll be off for some days while some swelling goes down and scars form (No protection, I have a tab open to Amazon.com as we speak looking at various gear, but I was wearing the free wrist guards from EWheels).

So, from the level of instability I am experiencing, I just had a curiosity.  Is it easier to learn on a bigger wheel, or a smaller one?  I had contemplated a larger wheel, but the bigger they are, the more expensive they are.

Most people who engage in the EUC hobby would say to start off with a less expensive wheel you don't mind getting banged up while you learn, and I went for the middle of the road; something sturdy and well built, while not going straight for the Monster.  Also, I have goals of commuting home from work, and I work downtown amid a heavy sidewalk population.  My house is 10-11 miles away from my place of business, so reliable range was important as was maneuverability.  That's why I selected a 14" wheel. I know larger wheels are preferable for longer rides, and smaller ones for tighter areas, but I'm asking about the learning aspect.

What do you all think?  Is a bigger wheel or a smaller one easier to learn?  Is a 14" wheel perhaps too maneuverable for a beginner? 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Designated_david

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Wait, what?   

I think it's generally easier to learn on a 16" wheel that's heavier than a 14" one.  The heft allows it to fall to the side slower.  Plus the larger diameter and mass tend to allow it to plow over bumps and road irregularities easier.  14" was okay, but I think 16" would have been easier.  @beast@tanagra was able to learn on a 10" wheel so it's not impossible to do so, but I wonder whether it was more difficult in his case.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[Marty Backe]

Yes, in my opinion a 14-inch wheel is not ideal to learn on. I remember when I got my first 18-inch wheel, the MSuper. I was still relatively new to EUCs and my mounting skills left a lot to be desired. I remember clearly how much easier the MSuper felt to mount and ride. It was bigger and more stable than my ACM, which I learned on.

IMO, I think the MSuper may be an ideal wheel to learn on.

[Shad0z]

18 minutes ago, Designated_david said:

Hi all, been reading for a while, but first time poster. 

I'm a new rider, and I just bought a KS-14S 840Wh cycle.  I have been playing around with it since Tuesday when it arrived from EWheels.com.  The first day, I spent about an hour or so falling off of the thing.  The second day, I put some air in the tire, and tried again, and discovered the art of foot placement.  For me, placing my feet farther forward, with my ankles nearer to the wheel center, and then placing my feet more outward on the pads seems to give me much more stability.  That, and looking straight ahead, or through turns, does help stability immensely.  After having taken a break on Friday and most of Saturday, I tried again Sunday, and made a huge stride in my riding...only to be put off by a moderate fall involving a knee cap and a sprained toe.  I'll be off for some days while some swelling goes down and scars form (No protection, I have a tab open to Amazon.com as we speak looking at various gear, but I was wearing the free wrist guards from EWheels).

So, from the level of instability I am experiencing, I just had a curiosity.  Is it easier to learn on a bigger wheel, or a smaller one?  I had contemplated a larger wheel, but the bigger they are, the more expensive they are.

Most people who engage in the EUC hobby would say to start off with a less expensive wheel you don't mind getting banged up while you learn, and I went for the middle of the road; something sturdy and well built, while not going straight for the Monster.  Also, I have goals of commuting home from work, and I work downtown amid a heavy sidewalk population.  My house is 10-11 miles away from my place of business, so reliable range was important as was maneuverability.  That's why I selected a 14" wheel. I know larger wheels are preferable for longer rides, and smaller ones for tighter areas, but I'm asking about the learning aspect.

What do you all think?  Is a bigger wheel or a smaller one easier to learn?  Is a 14" wheel perhaps too maneuverable for a beginner? 

bigger means more stability. but to be honest. youre way too early. you will adapt and be more stabile on the wheel you have. 

just give it some time a few weeks to a month and then ask the same question. no a 14 inch wheel is not as unstable as youre experiencing. because youre a beginner.

and just because you may be confident. there is much to learn!

and every week you notice how little control you really had the week before

 

and i cant say this enough.. dont waste money on cheap learning wheel!

you can buy endless rolls of padding for dirt cheap!

your wheel with not even get a scratch even if it falls down a mountain. as long as you put enough padding

 

i wouldnt bother with a "beginner wheel" waste of money. i just took a roll of padding and rolled it around my expensive new wheel and started learning. no scratches. much better than spendning money on a cheap wheel then later upgrading. when you can start with the better wheel

Edited May 28, 2018 by Shad0z

[ir_fuel]

4 minutes ago, Shad0z said:

and i cant say this enough.. dont waste money on cheap learning wheel!

I did ?

It took me about 3 weeks to grow out of it and never touch it again, but now it serves as a learning wheel for others. In the grand scheme of things, if you plan on spending 1800 euro on a high-end wheel, those 250 didn't really make a difference. If you end up hating it it's only 250 euro thrown away.

But I understand your point of view too.

 

[Shad0z]

Just now, ir_fuel said:

I did ?

It took me about 3 weeks to grow out of it and never touch it again, but now it serves as a learning wheel for others. In the grand scheme of things, if you plan on spending 1800 euro on a high-end wheel, those 250 didn't really make a difference. If you end up hating it it's only 250 euro thrown away.

But I understand your point of view too.

 

if i only have 1400 euro

a gotway tesla costs 1400 euro

then im not gonna waste any of my money on a learning wheel for 400 euro

and have to wait more months to get money for a tesla

 

[ir_fuel]

Yeah I got mine dirt cheap.

https://www.amazon.de/Scooter-Einrad-Elektro-Unicycle-Bike/dp/B0788TW96K/ref=sr_1_22?ie=UTF8&qid=1527542734&sr=8-22

Here is another one. 224 euro.

 

[RockyTop]

Beginner wheels are good to loan out. I still need to buy one of those.  I thought Marty was crazy!  Who needs that many wheels?  Now my underlying goal is to own fewer wheels than Marty....... You know, as not to look crazy.  I am up to 3 and I started May 15. .............Not looking good!    ptsss Marty.  How many do you have?? 

[DaveThomasPilot]

Maybe bigger wheels are a little easier to learn on, but not so much as it will get you through the curve much faster.

You just need to stick with it and keep practicing.  For many, it seems to come all at once, at least just being able to ride without falling.

[RockyTop]

I am still a beginner.  I try to find time to ride 5 miles every day.  It seems that every day (after the first mile)  I  do so much better than the day before. You become more stable and can move around without the fear of crashing. On my 6th day I was doing great until I reached up to adjust my glasses. That simple movement almost broke the rubber side down rule. But I got better. 

NOTE: SET YOUR KINGSONG RIDE MODE SETTING TO LEARNER on KS app or 2 on Darknessbot       less jumpy.

Edited May 28, 2018 by RockyTop

[Keith]

1 hour ago, Designated_david said:

So, from the level of instability I am experiencing, I just had a curiosity.  Is it easier to learn on a bigger wheel, or a smaller one?  I had contemplated a larger wheel, but the bigger they are, the more expensive they are.

I honestly think the difference, from a learning point of view is minimal. 16” is probably optimal, bigger, I think, would start to get more intimidating due to its weight and lower manoeuvrability. However if learning on a 16” wheel shaved off the time it took to learn by more than 10% I would be astonished. I learned on a 14” wheel in a few days at 60 years old. When I later rode 16” wheels they didn’t seem significantly easier but there certainly was no learning curve at all with a different wheel.

Arguably, learning on a 14” wheel will set you up well for anything bigger.

5 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

NOTE: SET YOUR KINGSONG RIDE MODE SETTING TO LEARNER on KS app or 2 on Darknessbot       less jumpy.

I absolutely would not do that - it is too soft and is actually likely to reduce confidence!

[RockyTop]

14 minutes ago, Keith said:

I honestly think the difference, from a learning point of view is minimal. 16” is probably optimal, bigger, I think, would start to get more intimidating due to its weight and lower manoeuvrability. However if learning on a 16” wheel shaved off the time it took to learn by more than 10% I would be astonished. I learned on a 14” wheel in a few days at 60 years old. When I later rode 16” wheels they didn’t seem significantly easier but there certainly was no learning curve at all with a different wheel.

Arguably, learning on a 14” wheel will set you up well for anything bigger.

I absolutely would not do that - it is too soft and is actually likely to reduce confidence!

I have not been doing this long, but the new KS16s is so jumpy. I have watched videos on the older wheels and they dip on expert mode. On the new KS16s 1200w 840wh if you wiggle a toe or have a leg twitch on expert mode the thing freaks out on you. they do not dip much at all on learner mode. It will spin the tire on dry wood during acceleration on learner mode. ( just did that 2hrs ago) I am just saying , I think things have changed a bit with the newer wheels.   It dips more on learner mode than expert but not much.

Edited May 28, 2018 by RockyTop

[eddiemoy]

My opinion is that a 16” wheel is much easier to learn for a beginners.  It is much more stable.  You would think 2” difference between 16 and 14 would not make such a big difference, but it does.  At least for me.  

 

My my experience with learning was that the 14” was too squirrelly.  16” was just right.  18” requires too much effort for a beginner.  But it could be a 3 little bears and Goldie locks thing.  Could be different for you.  Only way to know is to get a 16”.  But from the opinions I’ve read on this forum, seems to sync up with my experience for the most part.  

One of the key things in learning is to suspend your fear, gear up because you will fall, and don’t give up.  

The other thing when I look back is that mostly people try to go slow.  Slow as in walking speed or lower because they fear going fast and falling.  Not knowing that going slow is the hardest or you will realize later it is an advanced skill.  You won’t get going slow until much later.  Just like with riding a bike, it takes a lot of effort to balance when going slow.  Optimal speed is a little faster than walking to about running where you can still get off and run it off.

We’ve all had the pedal bites from losing control of the wheel when getting off.  Try and get some shin guards.  I’ve gotten pedal bites from learning manual unicycling last year and the scars are still there.  

Keep at it and you will be a pro in no time.  A few months.  Have fun.  Each time you learn a new skill you will feel great!

[houseofjob]

@Designated_david Welcome and sounds like you are doing well learning! .... well, minus the fall.

 

3 hours ago, Designated_david said:

The second day, I put some air in the tire, and tried again, and discovered the art of foot placement. 

Yes, enough air is a typical rookie mistake, as in not checking. There must be enough air, or else, the wheel will turn too much, unpredictably.

 

3 hours ago, Designated_david said:

For me, placing my feet farther forward, with my ankles nearer to the wheel center, and then placing my feet more outward on the pads seems to give me much more stability. 

Foot placement is key, and note, there are no hard rules (I wish someone had elaborated on this when I was learning!)

Quite logically, spreading your feet more outwards creates a more stable base to the triangle that your legs create, especially for riding smaller diameter wheels (which have smaller body widths, thus smaller pedal width/outstretch).

Case in point, my legs on my 10" Gotway MTen3 never touch the side pads while riding (only mounting), and the outer edges of my feet almost cradle/hug the outer side edges of the pedals. In comparison, on a much thicker wheel, like the 22" Monster, my legs are in constant contact with the pads, even though I tend to ride with pretty wide legs in general, wheel model regardless.

 

3 hours ago, Designated_david said:

That, and looking straight ahead, or through turns, does help stability immensely.

Yes, this is often a visual/body cue for learning, but is not necessarily for the reason one may think.

The key is to involve less of your upper body in the act of riding, keeping it upright, straight and centered; while allowing your legs, which have better, more nuanced control (being closer to your feet/pedal pivot point); to determine the balance center involved for manipulation of the gyro for locomotion of the wheel.  

If you throw around too much of your heavier upper body, which sits at a higher height then your lower legs (thus more torque force), it's much harder to control as a beginner.

Also, in the beginning, you tend to go where you look, but ultimately, the goal is to learn how to completely detach what your upper and lower body do (as in skiing), thus letting the lower body and hips determine the direction of motion, while the upper body sits still and only comes into play when: a.) prepping sharp turns / backwards motion, or b.) turning on a much bigger, heavier wheels (eg. V10, or 18" & plus diameter wheels), where higher center of mass/gravity (and overall higher weight) of the wheel necessitates equally proportional higher body center movement (hips and above) in order to manipulate (again, Torque = Force x Distance, so more distance means more torque).

 

3 hours ago, Designated_david said:

So, from the level of instability I am experiencing, I just had a curiosity.  Is it easier to learn on a bigger wheel, or a smaller one?

IMHO, this is not the correct question to ask here. (Wheel diameter IMHO is more about overcoming road imperfections (diameter) and balancing the shock that comes from road imperfections (width).

Personally, I believe the below (in the following order of importance) make learning EUCs the most easiest:

1. higher body, which translates more importantly to higher side pads
2. more comfortable side pads
3. the lightest wheel that meets the above conditions

 

As a newbie, the hardest concept to grasp is the balance of forces, ie. your shin pressing against the side pad in one direction (1st force), .... vs. your foot / bodyweight pressing the pedal down in the opposite direction (2nd force).

This concept is important for initial mounting and one-leg riding, but more importantly: is important for heel-toe pivot re-adjusting your feet when you haven't initially mounted in the most comfortable foot positioning.

Wheels that are too short in height don't give you the easiest of leverage, as their side pads hit your shin lower (not ideal).

Naturally, the bigger wheels tend to have higher bodies where the side pads hit your shins (albeit there is often times more mass to control). 

The perfect balance of high side pads + low wheel weight IMHO is the InMotion V5 (or 'Glide 2') series (very comfortable but not too plush/malleable side pads). This is because all InMotion EUCs mount their batteries above the wheel motor, and not on the sides (every other major EUC mfr), thus making their comparative diameter wheel models higher in height, thus having high side pads (not to mention the overall lightness of the V5).

 

While the KS14S is, in terms of spec & price, a good beginner wheel, the physics of the wheel (lower pad height + very hard pads, last I tried) make it a tad harder to learn IMHO.

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by houseofjob

[RayRay]

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

IMHO, this is not the correct question to ask here. (Wheel diameter IMHO is more about overcoming road imperfections (diameter) and balancing the shock that comes from road imperfections (width).

Personally, I believe the below (in the following order of importance) make learning EUCs the most easiest:

1. higher body, which translates more importantly to higher side pads
2. more comfortable side pads
3. the lightest wheel that meets the above conditions

I agree (mostly) with the above statements...

A really small wheel (they make smaller than 14") would be hard to manage for a beginner (but so would any wheel). A larger wheel (18" and up) also poses 'unique' learning challenges... (can somebody back me up here?)

All academic since:

1. You are still in the first week of learning
2. You already bought a 14" wheel
3. Experiences differ (you learn on one and then that seems normal to you)

I myself started on a similar wheel to yours and then moved to a lighter version. I felt comfortable and very stable on an 840Wh wheel and had to get used to the nimbleness of a wheel with half the batteries inside. The position of the padding may have had something to do with it, but I think the stance (something you will work on) and the weight distribution/center of gravity are unique to every wheel and just take time to get used to.
 

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, RockyTop said:

NOTE: SET YOUR KINGSONG RIDE MODE SETTING TO LEARNER on KS app or 2 on Darknessbot       less jumpy.

I wouldn't recommend this either. While at first any EUC will feel way too jumpy, I feel that the softest mode on KingSongs doesn't give your body the correct idea on how to control acceleration and braking. It is just way too soft. I'd go with medium so you can immediately learn into something you'll probably end up using later on. 

Yes, a 16" wheel might've been slightly easier to learn on, as it is more forgiving of unintended or overdone measures of balancing. But if you are hoping to find a feature to blame the steep learning curve on, the difference is not that big. EUC just is difficult to learn. And the overbalancing is a phase you'll have to get through anyway, no matter the wheel size.

My brother learned and rode 700km on an IPS Zero. A tiny 14" wheel I never even learned to mount on, let alone ride. He finally got over the "16 is too big" mantra and chose to buy the 16S instead of the 14S. 400km in 3 weeks, still all smile while riding, and to him the 16S is the perfect way of transportation. Point being, he still learned and rode 700km on an IPS Zero...

Edit: In my understanding the 14S is a magnificent wheel, and it is highly regarded by many advanced riders. I'm sure it's a great first wheel for you!

Edited May 29, 2018 by mrelwood

[houseofjob]

@RayRay Well, yes, everything is relative ?. 

My learning as a 5'8" 170-175lb person will not be the same as Shaquille O'Neal's learning at 7'1" 325 lbs, or your's at a different body height & weight.

EUC is a balancing act, and every lb/kg & inch/meter counts, both your's and the wheel's in juxtaposition. So results may vary, yes.

 

But remember, the question posed was "is bigger better [for learning]", which I still think is not the direct and clear question to ask, but rather "is higher/taller better [for learning]", which I still DO think taller body EUC's are easier to theoretically learn on, relative to your dimensions. 

The weight consideration part was in reference to the fact that a larger wheel, thus proportionally taller wheel, could variably (according to the model & battery config) be much heavier and harder to manipulate / bend-the-weight-of, in counterbalance.

 

And FWIW, my reference of the V5 (I was thinking the highest V5F+ 480Wh config) vs an 840Wh wheel is not exactly half the batteries, but rather 62% of the batteries (840Wh: 16s4p, 64 total cells; V5F+/ 480Wh: 20s2p 40 total cells), which, if you rough calculate the difference, based on a typical 18650 cell weight as 50g, comes to 50g x 24 cells = 1200g, or a 2.65 lbs difference.

Edited May 29, 2018 by houseofjob

[mrelwood]

19 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

But remember, the question posed was "is bigger better [for learning]", which I still think is not the direct and clear question to ask, but rather "is higher/taller better [for learning]"

This is a good point to bring out, that "bigger" can mean several things in our 3-dimensional world. Taller body? Yes (up to a point), easier to learn on since you get more control. Wider tire? Yes, 2.5" tire would be more relaxed and stabile to turn.

But larger diameter tire alone only affects sensitivity to turning and bumps. I would choose the tire diameter first, and the preferred leg contact point (= EUC body height) second, as the latter can be fairly easily modified to preference.

Edit: For me the Msuper (18") is more nimble than InMotion V10 (16"). Can't think of any other reason than the body contact point being higher on the V10.

Edited May 29, 2018 by mrelwood

[gr8ps]

5 hours ago, Designated_david said:

Is a bigger wheel or a smaller one easier to learn?

No contest. Bigger is easier. I learned on a 10" Luffy, almost turned me off to the whole thing. Small wheels are squirrely and less forgiving. I've been riding for about 6 months now and I still find the Luffy difficult to mount and ride. I've also ridden a KS14D and i would say it is a very nimble wheel. However, it is big enough to properly brace your foot against the wheel which makes a world of difference. I always felt with the Luffy, the inability to brace against my leg due to the short height was a very large detriment to it. 

[beast@tanagra]

2 hours ago, gr8ps said:

I always felt with the Luffy, the inability to brace against my leg due to the short height was a very large detriment to it. 

I echo this sentiment from my experience learning on the MTen3. With the assistance of someone walking beside me, balancing came easily enough. But learning to mount was... a process. Getting on the thing no longer holds me up, but it does still give me pause. It's an activity with a very tight timeline. I've managed to stretch that timeline out longer as my skill increases, but it's not the leisurely triangle mounting you'll see people demonstrate on bigger wheels.

I'm pretty sure the lack of regular contact with the side pads also made everything harder in the beginning, which is why I soon added a layer to said pads (and have since removed this).

[Designated_david]

18 hours ago, RockyTop said:

I am still a beginner.  I try to find time to ride 5 miles every day.  It seems that every day (after the first mile)  I  do so much better than the day before. You become more stable and can move around without the fear of crashing. On my 6th day I was doing great until I reached up to adjust my glasses. That simple movement almost broke the rubber side down rule. But I got better. 

NOTE: SET YOUR KINGSONG RIDE MODE SETTING TO LEARNER on KS app or 2 on Darknessbot       less jumpy.

Got mine set to cycling for now, it's plenty soft in response.

[GoinPostal]

20 hours ago, Designated_david said:

Hi all, been reading for a while, but first time poster. 

I'm a new rider, and I just bought a KS-14S 840Wh cycle.  I have been playing around with it since Tuesday when it arrived from EWheels.com.  The first day, I spent about an hour or so falling off of the thing.  The second day, I put some air in the tire, and tried again, and discovered the art of foot placement.  For me, placing my feet farther forward, with my ankles nearer to the wheel center, and then placing my feet more outward on the pads seems to give me much more stability.  That, and looking straight ahead, or through turns, does help stability immensely.  After having taken a break on Friday and most of Saturday, I tried again Sunday, and made a huge stride in my riding...only to be put off by a moderate fall involving a knee cap and a sprained toe.  I'll be off for some days while some swelling goes down and scars form (No protection, I have a tab open to Amazon.com as we speak looking at various gear, but I was wearing the free wrist guards from EWheels).

So, from the level of instability I am experiencing, I just had a curiosity.  Is it easier to learn on a bigger wheel, or a smaller one?  I had contemplated a larger wheel, but the bigger they are, the more expensive they are.

Most people who engage in the EUC hobby would say to start off with a less expensive wheel you don't mind getting banged up while you learn, and I went for the middle of the road; something sturdy and well built, while not going straight for the Monster.  Also, I have goals of commuting home from work, and I work downtown amid a heavy sidewalk population.  My house is 10-11 miles away from my place of business, so reliable range was important as was maneuverability.  That's why I selected a 14" wheel. I know larger wheels are preferable for longer rides, and smaller ones for tighter areas, but I'm asking about the learning aspect.

What do you all think?  Is a bigger wheel or a smaller one easier to learn?  Is a 14" wheel perhaps too maneuverable for a beginner? 

Here is my take. Like you, I learned on a 14” wheel.  When I got 180 miles under my belt, I bought a KingSong Ks18s.  I basically hated the 18 inch for the first month. I tried to sell it, and nearly succeeded. Luckily for me the sale fell through, because I am convinced the Ks18s is the best wheel available (not including all the new wheels just coming available).  So, point being, whatever you learn on, you will have to relearn for a different sized wheel.  The one you bought was a great first purchase! 

 

[Joey Serrin]

Be prepared for a 25inch wheel (25x3.0). Its feeling pretty great I must say during testing. 

[RayRay]

On 5/28/2018 at 10:12 PM, mrelwood said:

This is a good point to bring out, that "bigger" can mean several things in our 3-dimensional world. Taller body? Yes (up to a point), easier to learn on since you get more control. Wider tire? Yes, 2.5" tire would be more relaxed and stabile to turn. 

But larger diameter tire alone only affects sensitivity to turning and bumps. I would choose the tire diameter first, and the preferred leg contact point (= EUC body height) second, as the latter can be fairly easily modified to preference.

Edit: For me the Msuper (18") is more nimble than InMotion V10 (16"). Can't think of any other reason than the body contact point being higher on the V10.

Bigger = More batteries + taller shell + larger tire (diameter) + thicker tires (maybe) = More better!

On 5/29/2018 at 1:59 PM, GoinPostal said:

Here is my take. Like you, I learned on a 14” wheel.  When I got 180 miles under my belt, I bought a KingSong Ks18s.  I basically hated the 18 inch for the first month. I tried to sell it, and nearly succeeded. Luckily for me the sale fell through, because I am convinced the Ks18s is the best wheel available (not including all the new wheels just coming available).  So, point being, whatever you learn on, you will have to relearn for a different sized wheel.  The one you bought was a great first purchase! 

Easiest to learn, dunno.

Consensus seems bigger (but not too big) may make a small difference. Eventually, you will want a bigger (and better) wheel...

Note: I am an anomaly. Got a lighter wheel (not smaller) for better portability. (Less 'better', but more practical for 'last-mile' situations...)

Edited May 30, 2018 by RayRay
Sometimes bigger is just larger and heavier

[yourtoys7]

LOOOOOL, not better but different for sure, lol. At the moment I have Msuper v3s and Monster and I absolutely love both of them for different reasons. Monster feels like it has no end, you can't feel a single thing on the road, literally feels like you gliding about pavement. Msuper v3s feels a little sports car that you zips around town that can take any corner, accelerate and stop on a dime.