Funky Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 2 hours ago, Forwardnbak said: Heya, I will make a full vid asap. Can I ask opinion on the dip/cut out at the end of this clip? I have replayed it and cant rule out user error/new wheel experience. Suspension not dialled in, pad placement. I am biased but it felt ok on all the hops I made my position felt ok, it just dipped unexpectedly. But it kept happening on small jumps, I have made all these hops fine on V11/V13 the speed bump hurt, smashed my cam and did some gear wheel damage. Confidence a little shot I did it a few times to make sure. It felt similar to a dip i had on the extreme once. As far as I know this is a one off, but wanted to show incase. Maybe FW? sucks a bit cam costs a bit :/ Lift switch? It looked like it powered off (tail light) Doh it should not power off while in motion. But as it got hit up and landed, it may sensed like it was not moving.. Edited January 21 by Funky 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) On 1/19/2024 at 11:25 PM, Mono said: Doesn't this suggest that the buyers "determine" the price, simply by their willingness to pay (or not pay)? I do think that's pretty much how it works, and, secondarily, the lower limit for the price is determined, over the long haul, by production and selling costs. Let some workers off.. Makes less products in general. Buy parts for cheaper. Put bigger prices. ??? Profit. Less workers - less salaries to pay. More $$$ in pockets. Making less products, less cost in storing/renting place for storing. Ship 100 vs 1000 wheels. Sell wheel for 2000$ vs 4000$? You will sell 2k$ wheels in more numbers. But by selling them at 4k$ you will get more profits. As less workers are needed and no rush in making more wheels. At the end your income is the same. Sell 1 or 2 wheels at same time period. I personally think selling one wheel at higher price point is way better for company. Less costumer/warranty cases. And things like that. Also by not being in constant rush making wheels, the maker can source cheaper parts over time period. In general this works for anything, not only for wheels. They can sell wheels even for 8000$ - people still will buy them. You only will sell 1 out of 4 wheels, for 1 out of 4 customers. Time to make that one wheel vs 4 also is big thing. More profits for company in short run. Yes short run.. Because there will not be many who will pay that price. Doh quick $$$ grab it's perfect. Good thing in about 1 year there will be new wheel released in stores. So new $$$ income. Edited January 21 by Funky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpong Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 no matter how much i see or read about the V14, its not getting better for those looking at the V14 as a trail wheel. im sure an owner using the V14 as strictly a street machine would not experience those dips but... there are older models like the S22 Pro and latest master that may exhibit more stable performance strictly for street riding and cost less than the V14. there are supporters of inmotion products in this forum no doubt, and im sure they will simply dismiss F&Ws dipping experience as a one-off and confidently say "inmotion will fix that". i dont see consistency in the QC yet for this model. but i still read alot of statements giving this model a thumbs up for its innovations. so, setting the innovations aside, what is the final current verdict of one of the latest V14 rider videos and how it performed ? to me its neither a thumbs up or down, just "it is what it is...". one may have better odds on the craps table in vegas...still waiting for more convincing evidence on the V14... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 3 minutes ago, bpong said: ...still waiting for more convincing evidence on the V14... From an early batch issues POV, I am not seeing how the V14 is better than the Extreme. The V14 is in its 2nd batch now. I am glad I bought the S22, on hindsight. Now I can patiently wait for the 4P 20" wheels to come out. (1) S22 Pro (not for me since I want to upgrade.) (2) Master V4 (3) Lynx (4) Commander GT Pro (5) ET Max (6) 20" 4P from Inmotion? (7) 20" 4P from Kingsong? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpong Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 3 hours ago, techyiam said: ..., (1) S22 Pro (not for me since I want to upgrade.) the S22 Pro is still on my list and a contender even though it is 'old'. not as old as me but from an electronics and firmware perspective, maybe perhaps...but its still good for up to 70kph and thats plenty fast for my commuting needs...plus i dont mind working on a "rube goldberg" style of suspension either... also Master V4 is on there as well but perhaps abit too much speed and its suspension may not be as well sorted out as the S22 Pros... if indeed the V14 is in its second batch, then the next few months of rider reviews should be more optimistic i would hope, and then it will be put back on my list...thanx for the reminder of your listing techyiam, it always tempers my desire for a new euc against trusting what has been proven and improved over the past few years. new is not always better and in the euc world of never ending new model releases, it just keeps reinforcing that cliché... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 7 hours ago, Funky said: Let some workers off.. Makes less products in general. Buy parts for cheaper. Put bigger prices. ??? Profit. Less workers - less salaries to pay. More $$$ in pockets. Making less products, less cost in storing/renting place for storing. Ship 100 vs 1000 wheels. Sell wheel for 2000$ vs 4000$? You will sell 2k$ wheels in more numbers. But by selling them at 4k$ you will get more profits. As less workers are needed and no rush in making more wheels. At the end your income is the same. Sell 1 or 2 wheels at same time period. I personally think selling one wheel at higher price point is way better for company. Less costumer/warranty cases. And things like that. Also by not being in constant rush making wheels, the maker can source cheaper parts over time period. In general this works for anything, not only for wheels. They can sell wheels even for 8000$ - people still will buy them. You only will sell 1 out of 4 wheels, for 1 out of 4 customers. Time to make that one wheel vs 4 also is big thing. More profits for company in short run. Yes short run.. Because there will not be many who will pay that price. Doh quick $$$ grab it's perfect. Good thing in about 1 year there will be new wheel released in stores. So new $$$ income. There are other things to consider as well as company profit. In my locale there are lots of boneheads on scooters. The greater cost of EUCs has some benefits. I know you often read on EUC forums about "growing the community" but let's be honest. The reason we can ride uninsured, unregistered and unlicensed is because we are so scarce. Here the scooters are getting all the flack. A few weeks ago the local top cop was boasting in the press that they had confiscated over 80 PEVs which were then crushed (presumably with batteries removed). It was and interesting article. Up until then I had been under the illusion if you stayed under 25 and the PEV weighed less then 25kg it was legal. Why would I not think this? After all the Gov advertised extensively saying "you must not go faster than 25kmh" . However, this is not what they wrote into law. No, they wrote the PEV "must not be capable of going more than 25kmh". So with this tool in hand the local police are culling PEVs. I haven't heard of any local EUC riders having their wheels confiscated just yet and judging by their YT vids they don't seem too concerned. However, pretty much all EUCs are capable of more than 25kmh. So if you come across a grumpy cop your $4000 wheel could legally be confiscated and crushed. This is where scarcity helps. High cost of EUCs keeps them niche. I'm with Funky on the weight thing as well. More so as I get older. The Tesla V2 and Rockwheel GT were 19kg and 17.4kg. 16 inch wheels with ~1030Wh and ~860Wh with ~1900-2000W motors. Both easy to improve but Gotway added 3.8kg (+20%) with the T3 and those with access to both (Monocat) preferred the earlier version. Rockwheel had an uncomfortable chassis (also easy to fix, but not done) and disappeared. These concepts had potential and still do. Just changing Rockwheel from 18650 cells to 21700 cells (there was room inside ) would take capacity to 1250Wh for only a 1.6kg penalty. So 19kg all up. Gotway had breaking axles. To be expected given they were using axles that had the top and bottom machined off so there was almost no metal left. I guess in China with the girls being 45kg and the guys 60kg it was not an issue to install them like the e-bikes hub motors. When westerners started breaking axles they went hollow bore. Those hollow bore 61824 bearings weighed 16x more than the 6203s (1kg extra) and cost about 50x more! All they had to do was rotate the axle 90*. Problem solved. Of course the hollow motor also meant you had to basically completely disassemble the wheel to change the tire. There is still a place for good 18-19kg commuter wheels but instead we get 5-6 year old designs or the A2 and 30kg s16. Come on China you can do better. Edited January 21 by DavidB 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Feel for Forwardnbak. He was so looking forward (no pun intended) to the arrival of his V14. It kind of reminds me of the sudden intermittent balancing issues on some V12s. This could really harm the brand if they don't sort it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 12 hours ago, Forwardnbak said: Heya, I will make a full vid asap. Can I ask opinion on the dip/cut out at the end of this clip? I have replayed it and cant rule out user error/new wheel experience. Suspension not dialled in, pad placement. I am biased but it felt ok on all the hops I made my position felt ok, it just dipped unexpectedly. But it kept happening on small jumps, I have made all these hops fine on V11/V13 At the moment when the wheel touches ground, the tire has a different speed over ground than the wheel. The tire sticks the moment it touches ground and this is the reason why the wheel starts to dip forward. Having the sound additional to the pics may give some more hints as to what happened exactly. I'd expect to see what we see when the wheel started spinning backwards in the air. It does look like the wheel caught a backwards tilt in the air, but it's really hard to say for sure. Maybe a softer ride mode could prevent the spinning? More leeway for the turn-off tilt angle or a negative default forward tilt could be helpful? Edited January 21 by Mono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 11 hours ago, Forwardnbak said: yea i sent footage to IM i think engineers are looking at it. Damn took the fun out a little, I kept trying to make sure I was feeling such extreme dip. Then tried one speed bump and smashed my rig. Tough on a new wheel, been waiting a while for jump fun and day 2 wheels scratched up again :/ That hit hurt but rode away and still riding. You should upload the "black box" logs the Inmotion wheel collects. This data Inmotion are pretty good at analysing. It gives them move to work with than video footage. Now I am not experienced in jumping with EUCs. But what I think you need to consider is forward momentum and how wheel is tilted and how you hit the landing. If these are not fairly aligned I could see you ending up dipping forward or backwards before the wheel can react. Jumping EUCs is very different than street and trail riding. I would think a bigger rim diameter would make landing slightly easier too, maybe not much but it is about how big an angel you touch down on of the center line (tilted from center). When I get my V14 I am not going to jump ride it because I don't have this desire or skill to do so. Now I don't thing the video thread is a good place to discuss crashes as this can become rather big discussions. I would this it would be better to create own thread for this in general threads instead maybe. Now the good thing is you were up and riding again @Forwardnbak. I think this makes this easier to rider against n later. And please keep in mind I am no crash analyst expert, so I could be all wrong. Jumping a bmx bike vs EUC is very different because of the n ed to self balance of EUC and what power is needed at impacts. Hitting a bump at low speeds generates huge power spikes vs hitting it as higher speeds due to momentum caring you over the bump. This I beleave you need to consider too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 12 hours ago, Forwardnbak said: Heya, I will make a full vid asap. Can I ask opinion on the dip/cut out at the end of this clip? I have replayed it and cant rule out user error/new wheel experience. Suspension not dialled in, pad placement. I am biased but it felt ok on all the hops I made my position felt ok, it just dipped unexpectedly. But it kept happening on small jumps, I have made all these hops fine on V11/V13 the speed bump hurt, smashed my cam and did some gear wheel damage. Confidence a little shot I did it a few times to make sure. It felt similar to a dip i had on the extreme once. As far as I know this is a one off, but wanted to show incase. Maybe FW? sucks a bit cam costs a bit :/ V14 may have that setting "on". (Doh V14 don't have that setting in the APP..?? Maybe manufacturers simply forgot to add the setting in APP. But by default wheel have some kind buggy version on.) Forgot some Inmotion wheels have that function.. As always Inmotion doesn't disappoint in their "software" department. I think they need to get new people in their software department... As most Inmmotion wheels have had something wrong with software. Built wise they are awesome. But software is their achilles heel.. Video by our truly @mrelwood - Props go to him.<3 Edited January 21 by Funky 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forwardnbak Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 another rider posted in comments their wheel started dipping on jumps after the latest FW update and it was fine before. Maybe a buggy FW 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 6 hours ago, DavidB said: This is where scarcity helps. High cost of EUCs keeps them niche. I think the primary reason for EUCs going to remain niche is because many people consider them dangerous, and there is a somewhat steep to very steep learning curve. One analog would be that unicycles has remained rare for so many decades, and the reason for it is not cost. Additionally, I ride my EUC to replace car miles, enabling me to lower my personal transportation costs. Edited January 21 by techyiam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WheelGoodTime Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 1 hour ago, Forwardnbak said: another rider posted in comments their wheel started dipping on jumps after the latest FW update and it was fine before. Maybe a buggy FW Yeah you are not alone at all in this. Another person I know was saying the same thing. Extremely sketchy issue. I hope they acknowledge it and fix it ASAP because that's a dangerous firmware bug 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forwardnbak Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) Yep, for sure it was not feeling safe. No way I am keen to jump it at the moment. 3 times it kicked me off. Scratched a few panels ripped off a bumper and killed my insta360 one x3. I know someone else said they reported this error to IM just after installing latest FW but they had no footage. I wasn't aware it was buggy and kind of expected the testing of FW to be done by this release. I understand there are bugs though, 1st batch so... yep. It will be ok with an update im sure. Im only sour about busting my camera up and on a speed bump hop.. ! Edited January 21 by Forwardnbak 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 1 hour ago, Forwardnbak said: Yep, for sure it was not feeling safe. No way I am keen to jump it at the moment. 3 times it kicked me off. Scratched a few panels ripped off a bumper and killed my insta360 one x3. I know someone else said they reported this error to IM just after installing latest FW but they had no footage. I wasn't aware it was buggy and kind of expected the testing of FW to be done by this release. I understand there are bugs though, 1st batch so... yep. It will be ok with an update im sure. Im only sour about busting my camera up and on a speed bump hop.. ! We - the riders are the testers.. That's why no-one want's to be the owner of first batch wheels. Same goes for newly released firmware. I never once updated my wheel in 3 years. Why? Because it works fine and i don't want an new firmware that may or may not brick my wheel. Or firmware where it stops operating mid ride. Edited January 21 by Funky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 1 hour ago, Funky said: I never once updated my wheel in 3 years. Why? Because it works fine and i don't want an new firmware that may or may not brick my wheel. Or firmware where it stops operating mid ride. It is already risky enough updating PC motherboards. For EUC's, it is just ridiculous, because it may slam your face into the ground. Bricking your wheel is also another possibility. Edited January 21 by techyiam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punxatawneyjoe Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 2 hours ago, Forwardnbak said: 3 times it kicked me off. Yeah be careful, glad you didn't get hurt. I think Funky might be onto something about the lift cutoff. It definitely seemed to kill the wheel from spinning up again when you landed regardless of the tilt angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 6 hours ago, Funky said: V14 may have that setting "on". +1 "No load detection", nice feature, maybe not quite appropriate for jumping when it takes 1/2 seconds to reactivate the motor Edited January 21 by Mono 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mono said: +1 "No load detection", nice feature, maybe not quite appropriate for jumping when it takes 1/2 seconds to reactivate the motor The thing is - does V14 even have it in the settings..? I heard V13/14 doesn't have that option in the APP. Is it true or not - i don't know. So i figure it may have some kind "BUGGY" version on by default, that may work 1 out 5xx times. Inmotion wanted to get V14 out to costumer fast as possible.. Resulting in buggy firmware/app. Edited January 21 by Funky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punxatawneyjoe Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 39 minutes ago, Funky said: does V14 even have it in the settings..? I heard V13/14 doesn't have that option in the APP. It's not in the app. and the v13 doesn't seem to have it like the v11 does. I can't lift/free spin my v11 even if i try to do it slowly and trick it. But the v13 will spin right up. That being said, i have jumped the v11 many times without that sort of behavior. It definitely seems like something like that is happening though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 48 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said: It's not in the app. and the v13 doesn't seem to have it like the v11 does. I can't lift/free spin my v11 even if i try to do it slowly and trick it. But the v13 will spin right up. That being said, i have jumped the v11 many times without that sort of behavior. It definitely seems like something like that is happening though. Kinda simple to test now for the specific wheel which took part in the crash. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forwardnbak Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forwardnbak Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 I have uploaded logs to IM now 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 I know how to fix this! Very simple solution really. My mind actually got blown how easy this fix was. Not hard at all to do it yourself. Spoiler Don't jump. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punxatawneyjoe Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 (edited) 2 hours ago, Forwardnbak said: I have uploaded logs to IM now Unfortunately, they made the Begode clone a bit too realistic. Edited January 22 by Punxatawneyjoe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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