i am seriously considering it!

[Chriull]

23 minutes ago, Shad0z said:

ok thanks i weigh 80 kg with everything 

but what is the differences 425wh. 850wh 1020wh is it the battery? Do they all have the same motor? 

They all should have the same motor, motherboard, etc just the batteries and the battery configuration is different.

425Wh: 20s2p of NCR18650PF (2900mAh per Cell)

850Wh: 20s4p of NCR18650PF (2900mAh per Cell)

1020Wh: 20s4p of NCR18650GA (3500mAh per Cell)

XsYp means that there X cells in serie, and Y of this series cells in parallel. The 20s make the 84V and the 2p or 4p "deliver" the current. The more in parallel the more current is available and the lower the voltage sag is at the same load.

The total amount of cells (X*Y) is for the capacity (range) one can get. And also the safety margin.

the 2p configuration (425Wh) should be much too low for this powerful wheel - imho there should be quite some differences noticeable! (Less acceleration, softer/more wobbly feeling, less range, less safety margin for faceplants,...)

The 4p configurations are the ones to choose, depending upon the range one wants.

21 hours ago, Shad0z said:

... the real important thing is i need 30-40 km+ range ...

Both 4p configurations (850Wh and 1020Wh) should be good for this range, especially with your weight. BUT if there are some inclines, cold weather, headwind, etc it could happen that you have to walk the last couple of kilometers of the ~40km with the 850Wh pack...

Additionally the faster one drives, the lower the range gets - so could easily be that the 850Wh model is not for you. There are some Tesla owners by now in the forum and we should get same real world range tests soon.

Maybe also one of the high power EUC drivers can extrapolate ranges from the MSuper or similar down to the lower Tesla capacity?

 

Ps.: The listed cell types should be subject to change anytime without prior notice!

[Shad0z]

2 hours ago, Chriull said:

They all should have the same motor, motherboard, etc just the batteries and the battery configuration is different.

425Wh: 20s2p of NCR18650PF (2900mAh per Cell)

850Wh: 20s4p of NCR18650PF (2900mAh per Cell)

1020Wh: 20s4p of NCR18650GA (3500mAh per Cell)

XsYp means that there X cells in serie, and Y of this series cells in parallel. The 20s make the 84V and the 2p or 4p "deliver" the current. The more in parallel the more current is available and the lower the voltage sag is at the same load.

The total amount of cells (X*Y) is for the capacity (range) one can get. And also the safety margin.

the 2p configuration (425Wh) should be much too low for this powerful wheel - imho there should be quite some differences noticeable! (Less acceleration, softer/more wobbly feeling, less range, less safety margin for faceplants,...)

The 4p configurations are the ones to choose, depending upon the range one wants.

Both 4p configurations (850Wh and 1020Wh) should be good for this range, especially with your weight. BUT if there are some inclines, cold weather, headwind, etc it could happen that you have to walk the last couple of kilometers of the ~40km with the 850Wh pack...

Additionally the faster one drives, the lower the range gets - so could easily be that the 850Wh model is not for you. There are some Tesla owners by now in the forum and we should get same real world range tests soon.

Maybe also one of the high power EUC drivers can extrapolate ranges from the MSuper or similar down to the lower Tesla capacity?

 

Ps.: The listed cell types should be subject to change anytime without prior notice!

thank you for information i will buy 1020wh or 850 dpending on budget (my money i have now is: about 150$) i will have to get some cash going in someway thank you for the info i cant wait to get my first wheel i have self balancing stuff before so i kind of know what to expect other than these eucs look like the turning is done by tilting the wheel and not turn on a stick or foot pedals so it should be harder but thabnk you for the details

[Smoother]

Good luck with your plans.  A quality euc is an awesome way to get around.  Maybe if you set your sights a bit lower, you can afford one sooner.  Think about a used one.  You could save a lot buying a good used wheel.  We EUCers are always upgrading.  Suddenly, the wheel we cherished yesterday is just sitting in the corner  gathering dust. I know of a ks14d for sale  here in England for £500.  I'm thinking of selling my 14c too.  Shipping to Russia might be £30 ( convert to roubles obviously) for either.  Someone more local might have something too.  Check the private sales section of this forum.

[meepmeepmayer]

4 hours ago, Shad0z said:

ok thanks i weigh 80 kg with everything 

but what is the differences 425wh. 850wh 1020wh is it the battery? Do they all have the same motor? 

As the others explained, they are the same wheels* (motor and everything), just the battery capacities are different. Bigger battery = more range, that's all.

[*As long as we talk about the 84V models. I recommend NOT getting one of the 67.2V models, they will be weaker.]

Here's some rough range estimates from my experience with my 1300Wh ACM (a similar wheel, more or less the Tesla's older brother). 80kg rider, like you.

• Warm weather (25°C) and not riding too fast - ~20km/h average speed/~25km/h max speed:
  ACM 1300Wh 70km | Tesla 850Wh 45km | Tesla 1020 55km
• Cold weather (5°C) and fast riding -  >25km/h average speed/~30km/h max speed
  ACM 1300Wh 55km | Tesla 850Wh 35km | Tesla 1020 45km
• This isn't so important, but I might mention it:
  25°C and slow city riding/sightseeing - maybe around 10-15 km/h for most of the time:
  ACM 1300Wh 90km | Tesla 850Wh 60km | Tesla 1020 70km

(I use 80% of each wheel as usable capacity (100% battery down to 20% battery) and then make the comparison.)

Because the Tesla is a bit faster than the ACM, it might need more battery. Maybe also it is more efficient and uses less battery. I don't know. So these are only very rough ideas of your ranges with these wheels.

Looks like the 1020Wh might be the safer choice for you (based on the cold weather worst case), although the 850Wh seems close. But it's always good to have some reserve battery, for extra range and for safety.

If you're saving money now, maybe later when you have it there will be a better option and new models. Also plan to spend some money on protection: wrist guard, helmet, etc.

The tip with the used wheel is also very good, sometimes you can be lucky and find excellent offers for a used wheel (with crazy good prices).

[Shad0z]

7 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

As the others explained, they are the same wheels* (motor and everything), just the battery capacities are different. Bigger battery = more range, that's all.

[*As long as we talk about the 84V models. I recommend NOT getting one of the 67.2V models, they will be weaker.]

Here's some rough range estimates from my experience with my 1300Wh ACM (a similar wheel, more or less the Tesla's older brother). 80kg rider, like you.

• Warm weather (25°C) and not riding too fast - ~20km/h average speed/~25km/h max speed:
  ACM 1300Wh 70km | Tesla 850Wh 45km | Tesla 1020 55km
• Cold weather (5°C) and fast riding -  >25km/h average speed/~30km/h max speed
  ACM 1300Wh 55km | Tesla 850Wh 35km | Tesla 1020 45km
• This isn't so important, but I might mention it:
  25°C and slow city riding/sightseeing - maybe around 10-15 km/h for most of the time:
  ACM 1300Wh 90km | Tesla 850Wh 60km | Tesla 1020 70km

(I use 80% of each wheel as usable capacity (100% battery down to 20% battery) and then make the comparison.)

Because the Tesla is a bit faster than the ACM, it might need more battery. Maybe also it is more efficient and uses less battery. I don't know. So these are only very rough ideas of your ranges with these wheels.

Looks like the 1020Wh might be the safer choice for you (based on the cold weather worst case), although the 850Wh seems close. But it's always good to have some reserve battery, for extra range and for safety.

If you're saving money now, maybe later when you have it there will be a better option and new models. Also plan to spend some money on protection: wrist guard, helmet, etc.

The tip with the used wheel is also very good, sometimes you can be lucky and find excellent offers for a used wheel (with crazy good prices).

i will got for the 850 or the 1020wh

is the 1020 better in any other way than range?

[meepmeepmayer]

9 minutes ago, Shad0z said:

is the 1020 better in any other way than range?

No

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, Shad0z said:

i will got for the 850 or the 1020wh

is the 1020 better in any other way than range?

The cells just have different capacity - something like 3 vs 3,5Ah. Same manufacturer and quite similar characteristics.

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

No

So yes - no ?

Ps: ... Means i join @meepmeepmayers no...

[Shad0z]

1 hour ago, Chriull said:

The cells just have different capacity - something like 3 vs 3,5Ah. Same manufacturer and quite similar characteristics.

So yes - no ?

Ps: ... Means i join @meepmeepmayers no...

you joined someones no 

shit the western world is really getting out of hand..

but how much further will the 1020 go vs the 850 and how many km do they go on one charge (no need to be very specefic)

 

[meepmeepmayer]

1020 will go 20% further than the 850 (taking 80% of each capacity because the last 20% is very slow and with beeps, and making the comparison, gives you 20% difference).

For km estimates, see my post above. It depends on speed and temperature.

9 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Here's some rough range estimates from my experience with my 1300Wh ACM (a similar wheel, more or less the Tesla's older brother). 80kg rider, like you.

• Warm weather (25°C) and not riding too fast - ~20km/h average speed/~25km/h max speed:
  ACM 1300Wh 70km | Tesla 850Wh 45km | Tesla 1020 55km
• Cold weather (5°C) and fast riding -  >25km/h average speed/~30km/h max speed
  ACM 1300Wh 55km | Tesla 850Wh 35km | Tesla 1020 45km
• This isn't so important, but I might mention it:
  25°C and slow city riding/sightseeing - maybe around 10-15 km/h for most of the time:
  ACM 1300Wh 90km | Tesla 850Wh 60km | Tesla 1020 70km

(I use 80% of each wheel as usable capacity (100% battery down to 20% battery) and then make the comparison.)

Because the Tesla is a bit faster than the ACM, it might need more battery. Maybe also it is more efficient and uses less battery. I don't know. So these are only very rough ideas of your ranges with these wheels.

[Shad0z]

would you say 850wh is too little fir everyday 3 km from and to school and then some around the city i will be driving hihg speed 15 kmh is a little slow when i get this my ninebot mini can drive 18 and when it reduce speed limit to 14-15 oh so slow 

when does tesla begin to reduce speed and how drasticly

my problem with my current ninebot mini is that afyer 80% speed decrease to 16kmh 

60% 14kmh

40% 12kmh

20% 7kmh 

way too much slow down

how is the tesla? (rough estimate)

[Chriull]

2 hours ago, Shad0z said:

would you say 850wh is too little fir everyday 3 km from and to school and then some around the city i will be driving hihg speed 15 kmh is a little slow when i get this my ninebot mini can drive 18 and when it reduce speed limit to 14-15 oh so slow 

Depends upon how long you drive around in the city and how much how strong inclines you have  - the range examples from @meepmeepmayer above is about all you can get - the rest is your decission!

Quote

when does tesla begin to reduce speed and how drasticly

my problem with my current ninebot mini is that afyer 80% speed decrease to 16kmh 

60% 14kmh

40% 12kmh

20% 7kmh 

way too much slow down

how is the tesla? (rough estimate)

I don't know if gotways have this kind of speed reduction at all? Does the tiltback start at lower speeds for lower battery voltages? But anyhow tiltback can be disabled for gotway wheels - so there stays "just" the "80% beep" which cannot be disabled and "just" warns you. (Please correct me if i'm wrong with this - most of my gotway knowledge is from hearsay)

(All the following numbers are just guesses, which hopefully are in about sane ranges. Thats just to show the battery charge/voltage implications on speed)

Maximum reachable speed is directly depending on the battery voltage (and the load one asks from the wheel). So if you can drive in a specific situation safely 40 km/h with full batteries (100% charge ~ 4 - 4,2V per cell) you can drive in the same situation with about the same (proportional) safety margin and low batteries (?10% charge ~ 3,2 V?) 40/4,2*3,2=30 km/h to 40/4*3,2=32 km/h.

So since the safety margin gets also proportional smaller "recomended" speed for empty battery should be a bit slower than this 30-32 km/h. (Also some other factors make a wheel with low charged batteries especially after some burdening more "sensitive" so more cautious driving is very recomnendable)

If "safe" driving speed with full batteries for the tesla is above 40 km/h, the "safe" driving speed for low batteries raises accordingly.

And somewhere in this 5-15% capacity left range presumably the gotway will also switch to some kind of "limp home" mode where driving abilities will be severely limited to protect the driver and the batteries.

[meepmeepmayer]

5 hours ago, Shad0z said:

would you say 850wh is too little fir everyday 3 km from and to school and then some around the city i will be driving hihg speed

Easily enough! 850Wh at 30 km/h should guarantee you at least 35km, more in warmer weather. See my estimates above.

5 hours ago, Shad0z said:

when does tesla begin to reduce speed and how drasticly

I don't know about the Tesla, but every other Gotway has no speed reduction.

It will beep at you at low voltage, usually at 15% battery and maybe starting earlier (20%) if you go up a hill. Basically, at 20% it starts beeping and then it gets worse (more beeps unless you go very slow) really fast and ends with the tiltback at empty battery. Also, I don't believe the low battery tiltback can be disabled (and you should not disable it if you could!). I disabled tiltback on my wheel, but still get the low battery tiltback (which starts like 1 or 2 km before the battery is totally empty).

So 100% to 80% there are no reductions (on every Gotway until now), so you have to be careful when your battery goes below 30% or 35% so you don't accidentally overlean.

You can ask in the Tesla threads if there really are no (new) reductions.

[Shad0z]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Easily enough! 850Wh at 30 km/h should guarantee you at least 35km, more in warmer weather. See my estimates above.

I don't know about the Tesla, but every other Gotway has no speed reduction.

It will beep at you at low voltage, usually at 15% battery and maybe starting earlier (20%) if you go up a hill. Basically, at 20% it starts beeping and then it gets worse (more beeps unless you go very slow) really fast and ends with the tiltback at empty battery. Also, I don't believe the low battery tiltback can be disabled (and you should not disable it if you could!). I disabled tiltback on my wheel, but still get the low battery tiltback (which starts like 1 or 2 km before the battery is totally empty).

So 100% to 80% there are no reductions (on every Gotway until now), so you have to be careful when your battery goes below 30% or 35% so you don't accidentally overlean.

You can ask in the Tesla threads if there really are no (new) reductions.

ok good

[LanghamP]

It gets worse.

Since you can extend the battery life by not charging to 100%, say to 85%, and you find 40% (depending on manufacturer) to be about as low of a soggy wheel you'd want to go, then actually your wheel has a very narrow range of performance. If you live at the top of a hill then you might not even have a choice to fully charge; you have to do a partial charge, or else.

[US69]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

It gets worse.

Since you can extend the battery life by not charging to 100%, say to 85%, and you find 40% (depending on manufacturer) to be about as low of a soggy wheel you'd want to go, then actually your wheel has a very narrow range of performance. If you live at the top of a hill then you might not even have a choice to fully charge; you have to do a partial charge, or else.

Thats all correct...but imho this hole „battery longevity saving“ is much overrated...

Even without any of those methods the liIon batteries in our cycles are stated for 300-500 cycles...while a cycle is a complete charge from 0-100. So 2 charges from 30—80 AND from 50-100 are only counted as ONE cycle. Btw after these 3-500 cycles the batterys are not meant to be dad...after these cycles they just loose capacity and go under 80% of their original watthours.

So if you drive a LOT....on a 1020wh wheel you might hit not much more than 2 (full!) cycles per week....which means that you have about 150-250weeks and than capacity is lost ....i guess before you reach that margin...you allready have bought  5 new wheels :-)

 

(while i have to admit that i do this 90% loading, also...but only to my very, very beloved and favorite wheel :-)..i even have a kinda diary for loading on it, haha )

 

[meepmeepmayer]

58 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

If you live at the top of a hill then you might not even have a choice to fully charge; you have to do a partial charge, or else.

If you live at the top of a hill, you either will have no problems with overcharging, or your batteries will be full when you're down (if not, you can charge to a higher percentage until they will be full after the descent) So as far as range is concerned, no difference. You can alway start at 100% in some way, at home or at the bottom of the hill. Only thing to consider is getting up the hill at the end of each ride, that indeed reduces the overall range you can have while still getting back home

[LanghamP]

35 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

Thats all correct...but imho this hole „battery longevity saving“ is much overrated...

Even without any of those methods the liIon batteries in our cycles are stated for 300-500 cycles...while a cycle is a complete charge from 0-100. So 2 charges from 30—80 AND from 50-100 are only counted as ONE cycle. Btw after these 3-500 cycles the batterys are not meant to be dad...after these cycles they just loose capacity and go under 80% of their original watthours.

So if you drive a LOT....on a 1020wh wheel you might hit not much more than 2 (full!) cycles per week....which means that you have about 150-250weeks and than capacity is lost ....i guess before you reach that margin...you allready have bought  5 new wheels :-)

 

(while i have to admit that i do this 90% loading, also...but only to my very, very beloved and favorite wheel :-)..i even have a kinda diary for loading on it, haha )

 

I love all my wheels. They're like my children.

To make the charge to usually be below 85% is very easy. I use this, and just multiply my riding time by two. So a 20 minute ride I give a 40 minute charge.

Century smart digital countdown timer with repeat function https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01D3QEK4E/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_LAGbAbAW7QC3R

However, a 100% charged MSuper on hard setting is frighteningly fast, so I occasionally charge it up that high.

[meepmeepmayer]

3 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

However, a 100% charged MSuper on hard setting is frighteningly fast, so I occasionally charge it up that high.

Shouldn't the wheel behave identically no matter the charge state???? (At least til the overlean.)

The simple timer is a nice idea.

[LanghamP]

29 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Shouldn't the wheel behave identically no matter the charge state???? (At least til the overlean.)

The simple timer is a nice idea.

What? No way. Pedals get noticeably softer when below 40% or so.

I suspect some experienced riders would be able to estimate the charge given a partially charged wheel.

[US69]

3 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

What? No way. Pedals get noticeably softer when below 40% or so.

I suspect some experienced riders would be able to estimate the charge given a partially charged wheel.

Like meepmeep i also doubt that...

The motor is drawing/asking the needed power, the batterys deliver that (with even a caps sitting before). Sure, when the battery are lower, to go to a certain amount of Watts, the amperage has to go -a bit- higher. But in the end they deliver the dame amount of Watts....100% or 50% battery, doesnt matter.

Whatever...if you want to discuss that, perhaps another thread should be used ;-)

[LanghamP]

Is there a delay between when the wheel is asked for power and when it is delivered? If so, would something like wheellog be able to measure it? How would I go about doing this? The human eye often sees what the human mind wants to see, this would be a good way of ascertaining if one is able to feel the difference between a full power wheel and one that is half empty.

[US69]

4 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

Is there a delay between when the wheel is asked for power and when it is delivered? If so, would something like wheellog be able to measure it? How would I go about doing this? The human eye often sees what the human mind wants to see, this would be a good way of ascertaining if one is able to feel the difference between a full power wheel and one that is half empty.

If you lean in...and there would be a delay...faceplant (or overlean) would be the result...so, no, there isnt. Or better, any delay,that is because of the battery reacting slow, is covered by the Caps....

 

[Marty Backe]

4 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

Thats all correct...but imho this hole „battery longevity saving“ is much overrated...

Even without any of those methods the liIon batteries in our cycles are stated for 300-500 cycles...while a cycle is a complete charge from 0-100. So 2 charges from 30—80 AND from 50-100 are only counted as ONE cycle. Btw after these 3-500 cycles the batterys are not meant to be dad...after these cycles they just loose capacity and go under 80% of their original watthours.

So if you drive a LOT....on a 1020wh wheel you might hit not much more than 2 (full!) cycles per week....which means that you have about 150-250weeks and than capacity is lost ....i guess before you reach that margin...you allready have bought  5 new wheels :-)

 

(while i have to admit that i do this 90% loading, also...but only to my very, very beloved and favorite wheel :-)..i even have a kinda diary for loading on it, haha )

 

EXACTLY!  What he said 

[Marty Backe]

3 hours ago, LanghamP said:

What? No way. Pedals get noticeably softer when below 40% or so.

I suspect some experienced riders would be able to estimate the charge given a partially charged wheel.

I've never heard of such a thing in my life, and have never experienced it. That's really bizarre  

[steve454]

7 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

  3 hours ago, LanghamP said:

What? No way. Pedals get noticeably softer when below 40% or so.

I suspect some experienced riders would be able to estimate the charge given a partially charged wheel.

 

8 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I've never heard of such a thing in my life, and have never experienced it. That's really bizarre  

Oh yeah,  I've felt the loss of power, also.  But my wheel has a 320wh battery, which might make it more noticeable.  @LanghamP has better wheels than me, but also has more experience with them.

To me it makes sense, when the battery is full it is at about 62 volts.  At 50 percent it is about 57 volts.  (or at least about 5 volts lower)  I know people have said it shouldn't change the performance, because the firmware should adjust, but maybe some wheels read the voltage and change the available power?

(Or maybe I expect less power and am imagining things again)