Marty Backe Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 28 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Kinda regretting the whole electrical transmission line example here. How about we all agree that big wires good and small wires that burn/melt/self-destruct bad. Here's a quote I found (I don't know if it's accurate or not as I'm no motorologist): Effects of high voltage. An assumption people often make is that since low voltage increases the amperage draw on motors, then high voltage must reduce the amperage draw and heating of the motor. This is not the case. High voltage on a motor tends to push the magnetic portion of the motor into saturation. This causes the motor to draw excessive current in an effort to magnetize the iron beyond the point where magnetizing is practical. http://www.ecmweb.com/design/highs-and-lows-motor-voltage http://poweroptimisa.com/uploads/documents/Electric motors & Voltage.pdf Yes, it's all @Hunka Hunka Burning Love's fault. Troublemaker I tell you. I think I'll focus more on the useability end of things instead of the electrical design. Don't worry @Carlos E Rodriguez, I'll stop talking about motors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 22 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Yes, it's all @Hunka Hunka Burning Love's fault. Troublemaker I tell you. I think I'll focus more on the useability end of things instead of the electrical design. Don't worry @Carlos E Rodriguez, I'll stop talking about motors. Lol all cool. I am good for explanations. Maybe I am a bit sensitive or intolerant. Lol. Just don't like opinions when the facts are well understood electrical principles. And I don't like leaving a incorrect recommendation without a recital but then it puts it on me to keep facts in check and I don't like it. I just which people would not make assumptions and statements of fact on technical issues. It just creates a mess of useless comments of "how about his or that" And that is why I should stop. I am worn out trying to explain is a couple or words what engineered have studied and explained in 500 page books. But maybe that is what the forum is for. Rambling and entertainment. So I am out refuting people's opinion. Just too stressful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 IT'S FRIDAY! (Or is it Saturday if you live in the future? ) Time to go rolling outside and have some fun instead of over-thinking things! My goal was just to emphasize that we need bigger axles, bearings, and wires. If we keep repeating it, maybe dealers will pressure Gotway (plus any other makers) to eventually make that leap into a new world where axle failures do not exist except for elephants riding these at the circus (or are those all gone now? ) and where Marty Backe can ride up Mount Everest or K2 on his trusty ACM16 9800KW V10+ wheel someday without worries or becoming intimate with the pavement or rockface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper0511 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 Ok so I decided to redo my motor cable soldering/bullet connector job using 'High Melting Point' solder which melts at 300C (rather than the usual 180C). This HMP solder is harder to work with and I ended up having to tin the cable ends using regular 60/40 tin and lead solder as it was super difficult with the HMP type. However added the insulators over the cables, melted the HMP solder into the end of the bullet connectors, inserted the motor cables into the end of each of the connectors, covered with shrink plastic and hey presto it looks just as it did ? Note: I don't know if it's just me (as I'm not an electronic/electrical expert) however after soldering originally using the 60/40 tin and lead (last week) my ACM seemed a little sluggish going up hills etc. When I used the new HMP solder (and same replacement bullet connectors) the ACM now feels like it has more pickup and torque... strange! Below is a link to the HMP solder I used (seemed to be best value). https://uk.rs-online.com/mobile/p/solders/0556503/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 2 hours ago, WARPed1701D said: The way I see it. For two motors of the same power (800W say) if one runs at 100V and one at 200V the 100V one will require twice the current (amps) to operate. The 200V motor and associated cabling (assuming the cable gauge (ergo resistance) is unchanged between the two) should run cooler as a result of less amps. No step up or down required as long as the power source and motor are paired for voltage. I'm probably wrong but that is my take on it. Its not the equal power which can as primary assumption lead to your conclusion. it is the maximum no load voltage in relation to the used battery voltage == the motor constant which determines this maximum speed ( number of windings, generated back emf and also the factor between current and torque) practically there are two possible ways to choose: first (as imho gw did) is to use the higher voltage to reach higher speeds. This leads to @Carlos E Rodriguez point that the current needed for a certain torque ( air drag, incline, acceleration, etc) stays the same - no matter how high the battery voltage was choosen. This just leads too more speed. the second way would be to take a different motor with more windings per coil so that the maximum possible speed stays the same with the higher battery voltage- then one has the proportional current "savings". But thats until now just a theoretical possibility since no manufacturer used the higher voltage with such a different motor till now! Maybe just the inmotion v8 - but for this i have no data to come to any valid conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 16 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: IT'S FRIDAY! (Or is it Saturday if you live in the future? ) Time to go rolling outside and have some fun instead of over-thinking things! My goal was just to emphasize that we need bigger axles, bearings, and wires. If we keep repeating it, maybe dealers will pressure Gotway (plus any other makers) to eventually make that leap into a new world where axle failures do not exist except for elephants riding these at the circus (or are those all gone now? ) and where Marty Backe can ride up Mount Everest or K2 on his trusty ACM16 9800KW V10+ wheel someday without worries or becoming intimate with the pavement or rockface. I really want one of those Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 If you do any serious hill climbing, it might be wise to incorporate some sort of physical separation of the motor wiring away from each wire and other lower voltage cabling like the hall sensor wires where possible. Kinda like on cars, they have these spark plug brackets that separate the lines from each other and the engine. I wouldn't trust thermal looms that bunch wiring together just going by some of the photos I've seen of wires melting. Did you see @zlymex 's collection of photos where the plastic coil organizer melted? Maybe something similar to these might work as long as they don't melt easily? http://www.gearbest.com/cables-connectors/pp_76250.html Or maybe better yet - individually cover each motor cable line with high temperature wire sleeving or tubing. If the mountain will not come to Muhammad, then Muhammad must go to the mountain 19 minutes ago, Thumper0511 said: Ok so I decided to redo this job using 'High Melting Point' solder which melts at 300C (rather than the usual 180C). This HMP solder is harder to work with and I ended up having to tin the cable ends using regular 60/40 tin and lead solder as it was super difficult with the HMP type. However added the insulators over the cables, melted the HMP solder into the end of the bullet connectors, inserted the motor cables into the end of each of the connectors, covered with shrink plastic and hey presto it looks just as it did ? Note: I don't know if it's just me (as I'm not an electronic/electrical expert) however after soldering originally using the 60/40 tin and lead (last week) my ACM seemed a little sluggish going up hills etc. When I used the new HMP solder (and same replacement bullet connectors) the ACM now feels like it has more pickup and torque... strange! Below is a link to the HMP solder I used (seemed to be best value). https://uk.rs-online.com/mobile/p/solders/0556503/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 2 minutes ago, Chriull said: Its not the equal power which can as primary assumption lead to your conclusion. it is the maximum no load voltage in relation to the used battery voltage == the motor constant which determines this maximum speed ( number of windings, generated back emf and also the factor between current and torque) practically there are two possible ways to choose: first (as imho gw did) is to use the higher voltage to reach higher speeds. This leads to @Carlos E Rodriguez point that the current needed for a certain torque ( air drag, incline, acceleration, etc) stays the same - no matter how high the battery voltage was choosen. This just leads too more speed. the second way would be to take a different motor with more windings per coil so that the maximum possible speed stays the same with the higher battery voltage- then one has the proportional current "savings". But thats until now just a theoretical possibility since no manufacturer used the higher voltage with such a different motor till now! Maybe just the inmotion v8 - but for this i have no data to come to any valid conclusions. Exactly! I am soooo happpyyyyyy!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 30, 2017 Author Share Posted June 30, 2017 11 minutes ago, Thumper0511 said: Ok so I decided to redo my motor cable soldering/bullet connector job... Cool! Looks nice. Merely to make it clear to every reader, I want to stress that the motor connectors failing, and the cable insulation melting and subsequent shorting of wires (what this thread was originally about), are two entirely separate issues. It's just that now we have better connectors, the cable issue is the next weak spot (with the old connectors, it was close but usually the connectors failed first, hence the well known and solved connector issues). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fat Unicyclist Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 21 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: IT'S FRIDAY! (Or is it Saturday if you live in the future? ) Time to go rolling outside and have some fun instead of over-thinking things! That's me! I live in the future!!! So much in fact that next Saturday I'm leaving NZ at 21:30 and will still be able to make the Griffiths Park group ride at 17:00 on the same day (with a few hours to spare even). Over-think that @Hunka Hunka Burning Love. Thinking about it... if I ride my wheel in NZ at 17:00 on Saturday, and then ride another wheel in CA at 17:00 on Saturday, then I'll be riding two wheels on two continents at the same time! @jrkline - That has to be a world first that you have to let me have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 The Fat Unicyclist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 4 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: The Fat Unicyclist LMAO! But when I do, I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper0511 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 48 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: If you do any serious hill climbing, it might be wise to incorporate some sort of physical separation of the motor wiring away from each wire and other lower voltage cabling like the hall sensor wires where possible. Kinda like on cars, they have these spark plug brackets that separate the lines from each other and the engine. I wouldn't trust thermal looms that bunch wiring together just going by some of the photos I've seen of wires melting. Did you see @zlymex 's collection of photos where the plastic coil organizer melted? Maybe something similar to these might work as long as they don't melt easily? http://www.gearbest.com/cables-connectors/pp_76250.html Or maybe better yet - individually cover each motor cable line with high temperature wire sleeving or tubing. If the mountain will not come to Muhammad, then Muhammad must go to the mountain Hi please see pic of final job.... everything separated with thermal shielding too. 49 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: If you do any serious hill climbing, it might be wise to incorporate some sort of physical separation of the motor wiring away from each wire and other lower voltage cabling like the hall sensor wires where possible. Kinda like on cars, they have these spark plug brackets that separate the lines from each other and the engine. I wouldn't trust thermal looms that bunch wiring together just going by some of the photos I've seen of wires melting. Did you see @zlymex 's collection of photos where the plastic coil organizer melted? Maybe something similar to these might work as long as they don't melt easily? http://www.gearbest.com/cables-connectors/pp_76250.html Or maybe better yet - individually cover each motor cable line with high temperature wire sleeving or tubing. If the mountain will not come to Muhammad, then Muhammad must go to the mountain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 30, 2017 Author Share Posted June 30, 2017 @The Fat Unicyclist Don't forget the best thing, you leave in winter and arrive a few hours earlier that day in summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 10 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: @The Fat Unicyclist Don't forget the best thing, you leave in winter and arrive a few hours earlier that day in summer. Air travel, don't just change time zones, change seasons! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 @Thumper0511 - excellent job on the wheel. I don't think I've seen the control board side wiring melt as it's generally thicker gauge I think, but it would be good to see thermal sheaths or high temperature tubing covering that portion of the wires too with them separated. It's kinda too late now, but maybe something to consider in the future. I might have removed the motor wire black covering sheath as well and placed the thermal coverings all the way to the axle if possible. In the axle you really can't do much but hope the metal acts like a heat sink... Maybe cut open and remove the black bundle sheath and try to separate the wires? If you have some thermal sheathing, you can cut a slit lengthwise and slip them over then zip tie to keep them on strategically. Electrical tape might work too, but I find it gets gummy with heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fat Unicyclist Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 26 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: @The Fat Unicyclist Don't forget the best thing, you leave in winter and arrive a few hours earlier that day in summer. The funny thing... even when I leave NZ in our summer and go to CA (LA) in their winter - the weather there is still better than at home! Then again... we have more water than we know what to do with... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 I just hope LA and the space time continuum is ready for two time travellers in the same location. @The Fat Unicyclist, do you have like a black leather jacket and black sunglasses? It's gonna be like Backe From the Future Meets Terminator! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer" Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 1 hour ago, The Fat Unicyclist said: That's me! I live in the future!!! So much in fact that next Saturday I'm leaving NZ at 21:30 and will still be able to make the Griffiths Park group ride at 17:00 on the same day (with a few hours to spare even). Over-think that @Hunka Hunka Burning Love. Thinking about it... if I ride my wheel in NZ at 17:00 on Saturday, and then ride another wheel in CA at 17:00 on Saturday, then I'll be riding two wheels on two continents at the same time! @jrkline - That has to be a world first that you have to let me have? If NZ is to be considered a continent,I guess it would be considered part of the Aussie continent? And yes you own the "2 different wheels on 2 continents at the same time".However,on my 1st. trip back from Shenzhen,I rode my H1 wheel around HK Itnl.before I boarded and then rode it around LAX after I landed in 3/15.(Back then you could still check a wheel on a plane.)So the "same wheel at the same time on opposite sides of the planet" was already taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSport Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 2 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: I just hope LA and the space time continuum is ready for two time travellers in the same location. TFU, do you have like a black leather jacket and black sunglasses? It's gonna be like Backe From the Future Meets Terminator! Great Job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer" Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 10 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: I just hope LA and the space time continuum is ready for two time travellers in the same location. TFU, do you have like a black leather jacket and black sunglasses? It's gonna be like Backe From the Future Meets Terminator! You show his only remaining "GetoffwayTM" wheel on its side and in flames? Just how much time traveling have you been doing lately? Are you suggesting @Marty Backe needs to stick to the 14c? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 Rule number one of Time Travellers' Club: There is no Time Travellers' Club. Rule number two of Time Travellers' Club: Go back in time to change rule number one or else there will be no Time Traveller's Club. I just hope the Monster survives being ridden by the Terminator... er... The Fat Unicyclist... Just sayin'. We're not allowed to tell you about the future, but we can hint at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 29 minutes ago, jrkline said: If NZ is to be considered a continent,I guess it would be considered part of the Aussie continent? And yes you own the "2 different wheels on 2 continents at the same time".However,on my 1st. trip back from Shenzhen,I rode my H1 wheel around HK Itnl.before I boarded and then rode it around LAX after I landed in 3/15.(Back then you could still check a wheel on a plane.)So the "same wheel at the same time on opposite sides of the planet" was already taken. @jrkline, are you trying to dissuade @The Fat Unicyclist from joining our ride. You guys haven't even met and he's probably already thinking, "what have I gotten myself into. The @jrkline dude seems hell bent on being first" Now @The Fat Unicyclist, I can tell you from first hand experience that you better watch your back, literally, when riding near @jrkline. He'll lock wheels with you a la Ben Hur style at the first opportunity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer" Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 13 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: @jrkline, are you trying to dissuade @The Fat Unicyclist from joining our ride. You guys haven't even met and he's probably already thinking, "what have I gotten myself into. The @jrkline dude seems hell bent on being first" Now @The Fat Unicyclist, I can tell you from first hand experience that you better watch your back, literally, when riding near @jrkline. He'll lock wheels with you a la Ben Hur style at the first opportunity According to @Hunka Hunka Burning Love's time premonition, @Marty Backe's Monster ends up on its side and in flames.Seems reasonable for a "GetoffwayTM".So,if @Marty Backe rides his 14c and loans the Monster to @The Fat Unicyclist,that'll change the timeline and I'll still be able to do the Charlton Heston moves on @The Fat Unicyclist as planned.I of course will conveniently "forget" to bring a loaner wheel for our "guest" because I cannot Ben Hur my own wheel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 Let make some trouble. A la broke back mountain @Hunka Hunka Burning Love Style. Jack and Jill went up the mountain. Riding on a goatway. Hear many versions some x rated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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