zlymex Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 7 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: @zlymex have you done any experiments with your soldering iron to see at what temperature that Gotway solder melts at? Like if you set your iron low at 100C, see if the solder melts, turn up the heat 10C, check again, etc? I just want to disprove a theory that Gotway may have accidentally sourced an inferior grade solder that melts at too low of a temperature which caused wires to disconnect from connectors making them switch to crimped and soldered ones. Would you be able to check that for me if you have a chance? I've just made the test. At 220C the GW joint begin to melt. May be the real melting temperature is lower because there is some thermal mass involved(the plug and a piece of wire that conducting heat). I don't think GW use low-melting solder both from the test and because that kind of solder is more expensive and difficult to find. Anyway, I do think the soldering job is not very good for some points(there is too less solder) and maybe they should use hi-melting point solder. The top one is the bad(got loose after over current), and the bottom one I just test for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSport Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 From one of the videos I saw of them soldering connectors, it appears they are using a high quality solder, but possibly not high enough melting point for these wires. But, I think this all comes down to the wires overall. If the wires were the correct thickness for the amount of power running through them, they would not be getting so hot in the first place, and the solder would not be melting, no matter if it was high temp solder or not. The reason they are getting so hot and the solder is melting is because the wires are the weakest point, thus acting like a slow blow fuse and getting hot. Thicker wires = less heat, at least at that point. That does not mean the power would not find a new weak point to destroy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSport Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 I think if GotWay is going to continue to pursue the upper power limits of these wheels, it's time for them to go back to the drawing board and redesign everything. Heavier motor wires, bigger axles to accommodate, stronger Control Boards to accommodate, better Mosfets, better cooling, heavier cabling all around, etc... AND, finally, some redundancy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 26, 2017 Author Share Posted June 26, 2017 8 minutes ago, SuperSport said: I think if GotWay is going to peruse the upper power limits of these wheels, it's time for them to go back to the drawing board and redesign everything. Heavier motor wires, bigger axles to accommodate, stronger Control Boards to accommodate, better Mosfets, better cooling, heavier cabling all around, etc... AND, finally, some redundancy! 100% agree. But. We're talking about Gotway here. I expect them to have this 1 year after Kingsong has. Which itself may be faaaar away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSport Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 1 minute ago, meepmeepmayer said: 100% agree. But. We're talking about Gotway here. I expect them to have this 1 year after Kingsong has. Which itself may be faaaar away... Yeah, unfortunately, they change one piece at a time. That exposes a new weakness, and they change that piece, till that exposes a new weakness. And in the meantime, people are getting hurt and losing out on hard earned money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 26, 2017 Author Share Posted June 26, 2017 Exactly. Without a proper design in advance, there will be a neverending string of failures and new weak points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper0511 Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 On 26/06/2017 at 5:08 AM, Carlos E Rodriguez said: No it's not good enough. You need high temp solder. Silver solder for sure will have higher melting point. Use high temp solder. Silver solder meaning tin silver is almost 300c. Thanks for feedback. That's worrying - will think about redoing the job with higher temp tolerant solder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 3 hours ago, Thumper0511 said: Thanks for feedback. That's worrying - will think about redoing the job with higher temp tolerant solder. Also remember that if the cables already have lower temp solder, it will reduce the capabilities of the better solder. But it will be better regardless. Assuming the motor wires are getting 200 to 300 deg C then I still would not trust it. I almost think it would be better to twist the wires together and solder or use a in-line screw terminal. On otherb userb testedn theb insulation odb theb wires going to the motor and they melt easier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 @Linnea Lin Gotway @Jane Mo If you ever replace the wiring connected to your range top electrical element, you'll notice that they use heavy duty wiring with crimped connectors with no solder. If temperatures are getting that hot to melt wire, connector covers and solder, Gotway really needs to rethink their hardware components and move into the oven/range/automotive level of wiring. KingSong looks to be using a screwed-on PCB metal offset mounts on their control boards to which they screw the wiring from the motor onto using a crimped eyelet connector. Maybe screwed together (+Loctite) and crimped connectors with heavy duty oven grade wire is the way to go. At motor wire/control board wire junctions, maybe consider waterproof, vibration proof automotive grade blade connectors. How much would it cost wheel makers to specify to their motor supplier to use larger bearings and modify the axles, motor covers, and stator support? That way they can use thicker wires and eliminate melting issues entirely rather than going the patch this, this, and this route? If the axle size is a bottleneck for wiring and a weak spot for breakage, why not upgrade it? Make it an inch to an inch and a half thick so it is unbreakable, and then you can pass whatever size cabling through that you want? There's not a lot in terms of components to these wheels. Why not make everyone's life easier by setting some higher standards in the industry. If Gotway has indestructible, thick axles the competition will surely follow. Gotway always seems to be on the cutting edge of speed and improvements. Why not take that extra step and reduce problems so you can concentrate on making new reliable models? Can you imagine how people would be talking about Gotway with praise if they were to beat the competition in doing this? Gotway already has some of the best performing wheels available. Take them the rest of the way so they perform at the high and reliable standards people want of them, and you can guarantee profits will rise while seeing problems drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 11 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: @Linnea Lin Gotway @Jane Mo If you ever replace the wiring connected to your range top electrical element, you'll notice that they use heavy duty wiring with crimped connectors with no solder. If temperatures are getting that hot to melt wire, connector covers and solder, Gotway really needs to rethink their hardware components and move into the oven/range/automotive level of wiring. KingSong looks to be using a screwed-on PCB metal offset mount on their control boards to which they screw the wiring from the motor onto using a crimped eyelet connector. Maybe screwed together (+Loctite) and crimped connectors with heavy duty oven grade wire is the way to go. At motor wire/control board wire junctions, maybe consider waterproof, vibration proof automotive grade blade connectors. How much would it cost wheel makers to specific to their motor supplier to use larger bearings and modify the axles, motor covers, and stator support? That way they can use thicker wires and eliminate melting issues entirely rather than going the patch this this and this route? If the axle size is a bottleneck for wiring and a weak spot for breakage, why not upgrade it? Make it an inch to an inch and a half thick so it is unbreakable, and then you can pass whatever size cabling through that you want? There's not a lot in terms of components to these wheels. Why not make everyone's life easier by setting some higher standards in the industry. If Gotway has indestructible, thick axles the competition will surely follow. Gotway always seems to be on the cutting edge of speed and improvements. Why not take that extra step and reduce problems so you can concentrate on making new reliable models? Can you imagine how people would be talking about Gotway with praise if they were to beat the competition in doing this? Gotway already has some of the best performing wheels available. Take them the rest of the way so they perform at the high and reliable standards people want of them, and you can guarantee profits will rise while seeing problems drop. The axle issue is because they cut it down to fit the bicycle size but. They should tell the supplier to nut machine the shaft. Use with a full width uncut and secure the pedal handlers with set screws. That is a free improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 18 minutes ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said: The axle issue is because they cut it down to fit the bicycle size but. They should tell the supplier to nut machine the shaft. Use with a full width uncut and secure the pedal handlers with set screws. That is a free improvement. That would address a couple of problems (bolts loosening/axle breakage which are rare with Gotway), but it doesn't address the other where the wires are melting. Why not factor it all the way down to the root cause and just revamp the whole axle design while eliminating the entire slew of issues altogether? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 37 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: @Linnea Lin Gotway @Jane Mo If you ever replace the wiring connected to your range top electrical element, you'll notice that they use heavy duty wiring with crimped connectors with no solder. If temperatures are getting that hot to melt wire, connector covers and solder, Gotway really needs to rethink their hardware components and move into the oven/range/automotive level of wiring. KingSong looks to be using a screwed-on PCB metal offset mounts on their control boards to which they screw the wiring from the motor onto using a crimped eyelet connector. Maybe screwed together (+Loctite) and crimped connectors with heavy duty oven grade wire is the way to go. At motor wire/control board wire junctions, maybe consider waterproof, vibration proof automotive grade blade connectors. How much would it cost wheel makers to specific to their motor supplier to use larger bearings and modify the axles, motor covers, and stator support? That way they can use thicker wires and eliminate melting issues entirely rather than going the patch this this and this route? If the axle size is a bottleneck for wiring and a weak spot for breakage, why not upgrade it? Make it an inch to an inch and a half thick so it is unbreakable, and then you can pass whatever size cabling through that you want? There's not a lot in terms of components to these wheels. Why not make everyone's life easier by setting some higher standards in the industry. If Gotway has indestructible, thick axles the competition will surely follow. Gotway always seems to be on the cutting edge of speed and improvements. Why not take that extra step and reduce problems so you can concentrate on making new reliable models? Can you imagine how people would be talking about Gotway with praise if they were to beat the competition in doing this? Gotway already has some of the best performing wheels available. Take them the rest of the way so they perform at the high and reliable standards people want of them, and you can guarantee profits will rise while seeing problems drop. I think you need to read Don Quixote @Hunka Hunka Burning Love, if you haven't already. But that aside, when I get my new ACM control board I've been thinking of going with crimped connectors to avoid solder altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 That's one book I've been meaning to read, but I do get your meaning. I think Gotway is listening to us on the forums in lurker mode as they did seem to move from soldered bullet connectors to soldered and crimped ones as it was discussed on the forums (maybe coincidence). I had mentioned that one link where a wheelchair guy crimped and soldered his connectors for extra security and safety. I don't think we realized how hot things were getting back then though with the EUCs. They also moved to thicker motor wiring after Rehab1's epic thread. When Zlymex documented the connector housing melting issue, and I suggested maybe just using a heavy duty heatshrink wrap over the entire connector area to join things together, they ultimately moved to a clear plastic cover over the connectors which I hope has a higher temperature resistance. Maybe just another coincidence? Now if we suggest moving to even thicker wiring to help reduce wire melting and axle breakage by increasing axle size maybe they might make that move eventually. It's all for the best really. It's difficult to say whether their new motors with the thicker wires will be the end of these wire melting issues that are arising. I guess it will ultimately be a wait and see, trial and error, customer test pilot experiment to see if it helps or not. If your motor was one of the new ones with matching wire thickness to the control board, then it might be axle diameter increasing time? It's going to happen sooner or later I'm sure of it. They are watching us. EDIT: Now imagine if they used super thick Monster cables from the motor to the control board. There's no way they would heat up that much or ever have a chance of melting... that would be so cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 3 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: That's one book I've been meaning to read. I think Gotway is listening to us on the forums in lurker mode as they did seem to move from soldered bullet connectors to soldered and crimped ones as it was discussed on the forums (maybe coincidence). I had mentioned that one link where a wheelchair guy crimped and soldered his connectors for extra security and safety. I don't think we realized how hot things were getting back then though with the EUCs. They also moved to thicker motor wiring after Rehab1's epic thread. When Zlymex documented the connector housing melting issue, and I suggested maybe just using a heavy duty heatshrink wrap over the entire connector area to join things together, they ultimately moved to a clear plastic cover over the connectors which I hope has a higher temperature resistance. Maybe just another coincidence? Now if we suggest moving to even thicker wiring to help reduce wire melting and axle breakage by increasing axle size maybe they might make that move eventually. It's all for the best really. It's difficult to say whether their new motors with the thicker wires will be the end of these wire melting issues that are arising. I guess it will ultimately be a wait and see, trial and error, customer test pilot test to see if it helps or not. If your motor was one of the new ones with matching wire thickness to the control board, then it might be axle diameter increasing time? It's going to happen sooner or later I'm sure of it. Jane Mo was last here April 21st and Linnea Lin on June 17th. So I guess it's possible. I do agree that we will eventually have better wheels. At some point advertised reliability will become a differentiator as wheels become more similar in speed, range, and power. Maybe 2018 will be the year. Lets hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSport Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 42 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: I think Gotway is listening to us on the forums in lurker mode as they did seem to move from soldered bullet connectors to soldered and crimped ones as it was discussed on the forums (maybe coincidence). If this is the case, I'm going to suggest they lower the price to $500. Hopefully they are listening and will make the change... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlymex Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 On 2017/3/20 at 9:07 AM, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Ah remember that some of you might need future warranty help from Gotway reps. Might not be wise to burn those bridges yet. Linnea has always tried to be helpful as far as I have seen. I don't think she has a personal say in how these wheels are spec'd out and put together. Is Linnea a she? I thought Jane Mo is. Over the period of about one year, the local riding group where I am in is the most notorious for frying MOSFETs of the new generation GW EUCs(namely ACM, V3) among GW community, because there are a lot of hills here, and 'wild riding style'. The way GW handles this is quite simple: send us new boards, we ourselves exchange them, and send the bad ones back. I'm now still in possession of two V3 boards, one is bad waiting for repair/return, the other is new waiting for somebody the moment. The first ever incident happened here was an ACM of one of my fellow last August when we were climbing a hill together at night. His ACM just stopped, smell and smoke were coming out, and we opened the cover on site to exam, here are some photos: As can be seen that at least one MOSCFET burned, cable fastener melted, and outer tube of the motor cable also burned. Fortunately, nobody was hurt because of those(may be ten) incidents. Among these incidents, there are three exceptions: one is the shorting connector(result to burnding of MOSFET anyway), the other two were not related to burning MOSFETs(one is the bad 5V, the other is mine showing on the right of the first photo that unable to switch on) But why these MOSFETs burn before any warning? I had a conjecture that drive circuit/firmware is mulfunction in some rare situations resulting the direct shortage of the 3 phase bridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 9 minutes ago, zlymex said: Is Linnea a she? I thought Jane Mo is. Over the period of about one year, the local riding group where I am in is the most notorious for frying MOSFETs of the new generation GW EUCs(namely ACM, V3) among GW community, because there are a lot of hills here, and 'wild riding style'. The way GW handles this is quite simple: send us new boards, we ourselves exchange them, and send the bad ones back. I'm now still in possession of two V3 boards, one is bad waiting for repair/return, the other is new waiting for somebody the moment. The first ever incident happened here was an ACM of one of my fellow last August when we were climbing a hill together at night. His ACM just stopped, smell and smoke were coming out, and we opened the cover on site to exam, here are some photos: As can be seen that at least one MOSCFET burned, cable fastener melted, and outer tube of the motor cable also burned. Fortunately, nobody was hurt because of those(may be ten) incidents. Among these incidents, there are three exceptions: one is the shorting connector(result to burnding of MOSFET anyway), the other two were not related to burning MOSFETs(one is the bad 5V, the other is mine showing on the right of the first photo that unable to switch on) But why these MOSFETs burn before any warning? I had a conjecture that drive circuit/firmware is mulfunction in some rare situations resulting the direct shortage of the 3 phase bridge. So it's because of you that Gotway experimented with the firmware which resulted in the worldwide recall of control boards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlymex Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 4 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: So it's because of you that Gotway experimented with the firmware which resulted in the worldwide recall of control boards We don't speak loud about these incidents because we love GW EUCs and the service here is good and prompt. However, I reckon that there are some inherent issues(burning MOSFETs, quivering , poor step down DC-DC) that are difficult for them to solve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSport Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 26 minutes ago, zlymex said: We don't speak loud about these incidents because we love GW EUCs and the service here is good and prompt. However, I reckon that there are some inherent issues(burning MOSFETs, quivering , poor step down DC-DC) that are difficult for them to solve. I had some "quivering" yesterday at the skate board park. Very slight, but concerned me. Do you know if that's inherent of the board about to go out? Or just a random issue that I should not worry about? I've had it once or twice before, then it goes away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 2 minutes ago, SuperSport said: I had some "quivering" yesterday at the skate board park. Very slight, but concerned me. Do you know if that's inherent of the board about to go out? Or just a random issue that I should not worry about? I've had it once or twice before, then it goes away. This is the first that I've heard about quivering. Let's hope it's inconsequential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlymex Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 8 minutes ago, SuperSport said: I had some "quivering" yesterday at the skate board park. Very slight, but concerned me. Do you know if that's inherent of the board about to go out? Or just a random issue that I should not worry about? I've had it once or twice before, then it goes away. I don't think the quivering is a problem so far we can bear. As a matter of fact, my v3s+ is quivering one foot slide, or the speed over 30 when ascending, but I didn't ask for replacement. The quivering happened to my old V2 as well when the speed is over 25 and ascending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSport Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 21 minutes ago, zlymex said: I don't think the quivering is a problem so far we can bear. As a matter of fact, my v3s+ is quivering one foot slide, or the speed over 30 when ascending, but I didn't ask for replacement. The quivering happened to my old V2 as well when the speed is over 25 and ascending. Thank you for your input. Mine happens when I'm going super slow or stopped. It's sort of like a high-speed vibration. Not very strong, but I feel it and sometimes can hear it. It doesn't feel dangerous yet, but I was just wondering if it was leading up to something worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 29, 2017 Author Share Posted June 29, 2017 Wow, that's the first time I hear about this issue happening now (instead of last year or whenever) from someone else but Marty and me! Looks like you guys reliably burn your wheels on these mountain rides In the future, if you could have wheellog running so we can see the entire current history of such a trip that killed a wheel (if it happens again), that would be greatly appreciated! Finally, some specific data! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 38 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: Wow, that's the first time I hear about this issue happening now (instead of last year or whenever) from someone else but Marty and me! Looks like you guys reliably burn your wheels on these mountain rides In the future, if you could have wheellog running so we can see the entire current history of such a trip that killed a wheel (if it happens again), that would be greatly appreciated! Finally, some specific data! zlymex, i guess, was the first here to report about shorted connectors because of overheat! He deserves the credit for warning us from those issues.....As we have seen he is in a big rider group, and as they are in asia they mostly got their hands on new stuff, new wheels, a good time before us.... When i remember correctly he HAS data about those incidents....before people here in the forum did not know so much, that the motor current is that much bigger-higher than the batterie current. Its nice to see zlymex back here, as -for me- it seamed like he took a little break from visiting the EUC forum. when i get it right its not that easy to have access to social media and forums from where he is living.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 2 hours ago, SuperSport said: Thank you for your input. Mine happens when I'm going super slow or stopped. It's sort of like a high-speed vibration. Not very strong, but I feel it and sometimes can hear it. It doesn't feel dangerous yet, but I was just wondering if it was leading up to something worse. I would only worry if it is a forward band bacward rocking oscillation/quivering. I think quivering refers to fast oscillation. If it's just a wobble with tipping left and right and shifting then it's just tired legs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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