SerpentineGX Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 Thanks for sharing this video. I'm glad you're okay, minus the minor bumps and scrapes. It could have been worse. I'm just curious, why did you disable the tiltback feature on your wheel? I'm seriously considering the getting this model wheel because they implemented the tiltback. Maybe it's because I have a Ninebot and am used to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 1 hour ago, lizardmech said: I still don't even understand why it would shut down. There's nothing stopping it braking downhill at top speed. All I can think of is it has a max speed value in some control loop and it over flows and crashes the program above a certain speed. Manufacturers need to explain what conditions they program shutdown on. Depends on if they know the code and check the code like it's done in bigger companies with normal software code. Look on KS16. Was it a special firmware where you got the hello kingsong message at higher speeds? Reboot or wrong loop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 5 hours ago, nomad said: I went too fast on my 820Wh wheel this morning... It stopped balancing around 45 km/h in the decline, tiltback was disabled. I was not accelerating but the slope increased the speed and triggered a cut off. (Braking was needed to keep the speed down...) No serious injury. Left hand hurt a little but already starts to feel ok now after an hour, wrist guards took most of the impact. A minor scrape on lower left arm and a tiny scrape under right knee, had three layers of clothes, no knee/elbow pads. (Face or helmet was not hit). The wheel still works I rode back home about 8km. Lesson: Obey the third/last (80%) alarm! @nomad i am glad you are ok. its pretty lucky when someone has that grand fall, get scared just enough to be careful in the future but no permanent damage. Most people need this to happen to them, as we learn from our own mistakes, but not others. i do hope though that many, after watching this video, will be more careful and wear protective gear at all times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 2 hours ago, lizardmech said: I still don't even understand why it would shut down. There's nothing stopping it braking downhill at top speed. All I can think of is it has a max speed value in some control loop and it over flows and crashes the program above a certain speed. Manufacturers need to explain what conditions they program shutdown on. You have to know that EVERY Euc cuts out o on a. certain speed!! thats no missprogramming, its just that the whell neeeds more power to balance than the battery or board can deliver! Or that the mechanics like magnets and hull sensor are able to stay controlled... when Gotway announced a 45kmh speed ...than this is meant to be on perfect condition...like straigght, flat road, certain tyre pessure, no headwind, no hill,. for a 70kg person! it is not meant 45kmh downhill, bumpy road, european overweight( just an example, do not mean OP here) Even on 30-35kmh your "45kmh" euc can cut out, just if the bump in the wheel is big enough or the wind bow to hefty or or or or... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 29 minutes ago, Greg Spalding said: ... i just wish there were something in the electronics that NEVER KILLED THE WHEEL but just SLOWED IT DOWN as quickly as SAFELY possible... only DISCONTINUING THE BALANCING OF ITSELF... as the VERY LAST DITCH EFFORT before self-destructing. i hope that isn't too much to ask ... Unfortionately that's imho only possible by tiltback, which needs some reserve power to kick in (and by this could be the last bit necessary to induce the cut off...). And as many riders seem to perfect driving with full tiltback thats also just a warning and nothing that really forces the rider to slow down,,,:( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 37 minutes ago, Greg Spalding said: a great post i love every word you said (and i agree... which i guess surprises you, but i wish it wouldn't) your CAR point is perfect i just wish there were something in the electronics that NEVER KILLED THE WHEEL but just SLOWED IT DOWN as quickly as SAFELY possible... only DISCONTINUING THE BALANCING OF ITSELF... as the VERY LAST DITCH EFFORT before self-destructing. i hope that isn't too much to ask maybe..... as it SLOWED quickly while MAINTAINING BALANCING it could announce, LOUDLY: "Your self-indulgent fun time has come to an end. We apologize for any inconvenience this might have caused you or your fragile ego." Unfortunatly all "self balancing" things, 2 or 1 wheel are not able to "break" and slow down on itself... they can only show you the "end is near" by vibrate, tiltback or some other things...but can not "slow down"...as they are in general doing nothing more than trying to let the wheel stay horizontal by rolling in the direction you are leaning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Eucist Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 4 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: Unfortunatly all "self balancing" things, 2 or 1 wheel are not able to "break" and slow down on itself... But I believe they can make it so that it "doesn't accelerate". In other words if you lean forward it doesn't "catch up" for you but just maintain speed. You may still fall (if you lean too aggressively) but at least it's a better chance of surviving than a complete power cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 7 minutes ago, John Eucist said: But I believe they can make it so that it "doesn't accelerate". In other words if you lean forward it doesn't "catch up" for you but just maintain speed. You may still fall but at least it's a better chance of surviving than a complete power cut. thats what tiltback is doing...putting up the pedals, staying on the same speed...but when you lean "in more" ...the wheel has to come with you...or you will fall over also(not "may"...you will defintly)...which is at 45 kmh no big difference! its in the DNA of allselfbalancing wheel....no way to go around this....the energy you "put in" has to be equalized...and can not be "ignored".... correction: this "stay on a speed" may help...if you accelerate real slow to max speed...but if you push...lets say from 35-45 really fast...its no different to a cut out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Eucist Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 8 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: but when you lean "in more" ...the wheel has to come with you...or you will fall over also(not "may"...you will defintly)... Well when going near speed limits, naturally one would not lean aggressively. One would perhaps apply more pressure to the front part of the pedals ("tip-toe"?) and "test the waters" gradually. If the euc refuses to accelerate then you know you have reached the software limit and there's no way to go faster. I believe it's possible to have the euc reach a point where it refuses to go faster instead of a power-cut (after warnings like tilt-backs and beeps) and the user can still not fall while actually "testing" if it can go faster. If power cuts, fall is 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 6 minutes ago, John Eucist said: Well when going near speed limits, naturally one would not lean aggressively. One would perhaps apply more pressure to the front part of the pedals ("tip-toe"?) and "test the waters" gradually. If the euc refuses to accelerate then you know you have reached the software limit and there's no way to go faster. I believe it's possible to have the euc reach a point where it refuses to go faster instead of a power-cut (after warnings like tilt-backs and beeps) and the user can still not fall while actually "testing" if it can go faster. If power cuts, fall is 100%. we discussed this on another thread before.. the problem is: what you describe as "testing the waters" is abehaviour, that normally is interpreted like "breaking"... the "DNA" of selfbalncing is to equalize the power you give in...now you want that the wheel does not do that anymore... to get a bit over what can happen if a wheel is programmed like this: you are not beeing able to slow down, because the wheel does not know, if you want to "stay on max speed" or "break"! i would say if anything like "this not speed up anymore" behavior is possible in any way...Segway, inmotion, ninebot would have found out!! But nope, they tried vibrating, tiltbacking, etc but never did a "stay on" approach! but we 2 are not need to have the same opinion ;-) for me this is unable to do...same like: if someone heavily lean in on start...just ignore...and stay upright :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Eucist Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 4 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: you are not beeing able to slow down, because the wheel does not know, if you want to "stay on max speed" or "break"! Perhaps we're misunderstanding each other. I meant (at a set software speed limit) if you apply pressure to the front part of the pedal it will not accelerate. If you apply pressure to the back part of the pedal it should slow down as it does normally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 Just now, John Eucist said: Perhaps we're misunderstanding each other. I meant if you apply pressure to the front part of the pedal it will not accelerate. If you apply pressure to the back part of the pedal it should slow down as it does normally. no, i dont think so...Sorry :-) to stay on a certain amount of speed, you have to pressure all time...(little bit)...otherwise you slow down...aka breaking... but that was just an "overdone" example...why this can not work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilmann Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 1 hour ago, Greg Spalding said: a great post i love every word you said (and i agree... which i guess surprises you, but i wish it wouldn't) your CAR point is perfect i just wish there were something in the electronics that NEVER KILLED THE WHEEL but just SLOWED IT DOWN as quickly as SAFELY possible... only DISCONTINUING THE BALANCING OF ITSELF... as the VERY LAST DITCH EFFORT before self-destructing. i hope that isn't too much to ask maybe..... as it SLOWED quickly while MAINTAINING BALANCING it could announce, LOUDLY: "Your self-indulgent fun time has come to an end. We apologize for any inconvenience this might have caused you or your fragile ego." Hi @Greg Spalding, thanks for the flowers! As for your wonderful suggested announcement: I would probably kiss the ground when it comes to the "inconvenience" part and smash the wheel to pieces myself when it adds insult to injury and mocks my "fragile ego" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Spalding Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 7 minutes ago, Tilmann said: Hi @Greg Spalding, thanks for the flowers! As for your wonderful suggested announcement: I would probably kiss the ground when it comes to the "inconvenience" part and smash the wheel to pieces myself when it adds insult to injury and mocks my "fragile ego" LOL i'm glad you loved my little bit of humor (i hope you know i was kidding) please take care of yourself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason McNeil Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 Maybe I'm a bit of a wimp, but this is really the main reason why I'm extremely cautious about GW. It's been the case on the MCMII, MCMIII, MCM IV, ACM & now MSuper III, where the claimed specs have one speed & the school-of-hard-knocks shows something quite different. Back in July they themselves posted a maximum speed test of the ACM on the Facebook forum, I think it was intended to show how terrifically fast the thing was, but at about 7:30 into the clip (one below is just the part where it fails) it shows cutting out at ~40kph. The guy gets up & rides off, so presumably he was wearing some sort of body armor. For me, this cut-out below max speed business is extremely troubling; within a blink of an eye, an over-speed cut-out can wreck a life, risk/benefit calculation seems completely out of kilter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Eucist Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 8 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said: I think it was intended to show how terrifically fast the thing was, but at about 7:30 into the clip it shows cutting out at ~40kph. Dude RUNS OFF "the fall" at "43 km/h" (without dropping the two mobile phones he was holding)? I remember when this video was first posted too. That does NOT look anywhere close to 43 km/h. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason McNeil Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 1 minute ago, John Eucist said: Dude RUNS OFF "the fall" at 43 km/h? That's mightily impressive if he did! Can you make out what he's saying? Looks fast, wouldn't it be the standard GW App margin of error? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Eucist Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 16 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said: That's mightily impressive if he did! Can you make out what he's saying? Looks fast, wouldn't it be the standard GW App margin of error? Right after the fall and approaching the ACM he said "I don't know what the situation is with the soft board". Whatever that means. The "soft board" might have been "original board" or "original version" due to how close they all sound. Can't understand the rest at the very end (because my Mandarin sucks) but it didn't sound important. Hopefully someone else can understand and tell us? As for GW app speed error, I strongly suspect this to be the case as I suspect in the OP video in this thread as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Spalding Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 20 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said: Maybe I'm a bit of a wimp, but this is really the main reason why I'm extremely cautious about GW. It's been the case on the MCMII, MCMIII, MCM IV, ACM & now MSuper III, where the claimed specs have one speed & the school-of-hard-knocks shows something quite different. Back in July they themselves posted a maximum speed test of the ACM on the Facebook forum, I think it was intended to show how terrifically fast the thing was, but at about 7:30 into the clip (one below is just the part where it fails) it shows cutting out at ~40kph. The guy gets up & rides off, so presumably he was wearing some sort of body armor. For me, this cut-out below max speed business is extremely troubling; within a blink of an eye, an over-speed cut-out can wreak a life, risk/benefit calculation seems completely out of kilter. Jason, I appreciate you posting here this particular issue Of course you and I have spoken privately about this issue because I've asked you to consider bringing GotWay into your particular arsenal of products available to the United States public. Here in the US no one is more trusted then you to provide us with this leading edge technology. Everyone here knows I've been considering adding a V8 or KS-16 to my Life but I would be remiss in not mentioning that the ACM and MSuper V3 have certainly caught my eye. I appreciate you caring about safety and those who trust YOU enough that you will always choose Ultimate satisfaction in your clientele over money in your own pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraith Rider Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 Sorry to say but this was really unsafe riding regardless of safety equipment. ~Riding past pedestrians at high speed (gotway wheels do fly after a fall due to not shutting down immediately) You are responsible for yourself as well as others when riding. ~Why disable tiltback??? People make the argument that if you have tiltback on its more dangerous for the rider. Honestly that is a bullshit excuse because if you can't handle the tiltback riding at your current speed, your going too fast for your riding ability! ~Doesn't the constant beeping bother you??? First of all its annoying as hell and second of all and most importantly its trying to tell you something! Hello??? ~Honestly I love seeing how far the wheels are coming as in longer range but people who keep saying they want more and more speed and ruining it for what the wheel was initially intended for! You want to top out the speed? Show everyone how it shuts down? Go ride on a track or in back woods like EUC extreme. At least he is being responsible about it. ~If you want to spread this EUC to the general public, making them faster and having to dress up like a professional motorcycle racer will deter anyone but the hardcore. I have nothing against fast but the safety margin has to meet the speed! Yes I'm ranting and we really need to push to ensure safety and R&D the boards and software so they are safe. Redundant boards? Auto slow down and tiltback when hitting a designated speed well below the max? Not advertising the actual top speed? Using high quality grade components to begin with instead of just upgrading because they were just enough to meet the specs and safe a few dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 7 hours ago, Greg Spalding said: glad you mentioned that just now i was watching this new video on YouTube and i commented that: 1. i liked the video 2. nice to see a family riding together 3. WHERE ARE THE HELMETS FOR THE KIDS? we want to enjoy our EUCs and folks will take away those "rights" if people don't take care of themselves while riding People just don't like helmets. It's such cheap insurance, so I don't get it. Cool video though - the whole family including the wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 2 hours ago, Jason McNeil said: Maybe I'm a bit of a wimp, but this is really the main reason why I'm extremely cautious about GW. It's been the case on the MCMII, MCMIII, MCM IV, ACM & now MSuper III, where the claimed specs have one speed & the school-of-hard-knocks shows something quite different. Back in July they themselves posted a maximum speed test of the ACM on the Facebook forum, I think it was intended to show how terrifically fast the thing was, but at about 7:30 into the clip (one below is just the part where it fails) it shows cutting out at ~40kph. The guy gets up & rides off, so presumably he was wearing some sort of body armor. For me, this cut-out below max speed business is extremely troubling; within a blink of an eye, an over-speed cut-out can wreck a life, risk/benefit calculation seems completely out of kilter. Thank god these are only Gotways with cutouts.. For the V3 -anounced with 45kmh- we have here on the Forum now 2 cutouts reported, at 45kmh... For. the Ks18 1200 Watt -aunounced with 40km- we have -i dont know exactly- about 5-7 or more cut outs? Some of them at just 32kmh? Sorry for beeing ironic ;-) I love KingSong wheels, but they -or better say all EUC's- are in no way better than Gotway performance wise... Kinsong lately anounced their wheels with a certain speed, and than on later firmwares restrict this speed when batterie under 50%....i always would suggest not to the highest announced speed with any of these racers...always stay in a good safty margin..or listen to your wheel, like in this case here has been totally ignored! but to get out of this crash a general "Gotway" warning? than it would be better to stay away from all wheels, perhaps beside inmotion, where i havent heard a bad thing(as "slow"-safety they are) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 Nice ride video and great follow-through footage after the fall. I never turn off tilt-back and never ride when the 3rd alarm is sounding, so I never expect to experience a shut-off. These machines are wonderful - if only people wouldn't ignore all the safety features provided - but we should always have the freedom to break our hardware and bodies, and people always will. It's human nature. Looking forward to my MSuper from Speedyfeet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 4 hours ago, Greg Spalding said: <snip> i just wish there were something in the electronics that NEVER KILLED THE WHEEL but just SLOWED IT DOWN as quickly as SAFELY possible... only DISCONTINUING THE BALANCING OF ITSELF... as the VERY LAST DITCH EFFORT before self-destructing. i hope that isn't too much to ask <snip> There is - it's called tilt-back. Because people decide to disable that feature you (I know 'you' weren't) can't blame the manufacturer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mik3 Posted October 9, 2016 Share Posted October 9, 2016 As you mentioned @KingSong69 I've also noticed the "hate" towards GW in the forums tho lots of cut-offs have also happened with KS and numerous other brands. Maybe it is because they are making EUCs that really raise the max speed by every version and use it in the marking also. Who knows. I for one hope for even more max speed because that gives me more headroom - for this reason only I ordered the 84V version and I really hope that it really is faster(and not only marketing gimmick). BUT here comes our responsibility as EUC drivers to NOT to drive it as fast as it goes but to limit(tilt-back) the speed for lets say 40km/h. Now we have 5km/h overhead to the max speed and hopefully more in the 84V version. I think most of us can concur that 40km/h is high enough speed. Specially if you are driving with other people and still I think one should always lower the speed around pedestrians. As @Soju said - if you are driving in forest/track/places with no other people then by all means test the limits of your EUCs and please use somekind of heavy protection. Now some might think that shouldn't that be the manufacturers responsibility to limit the EUCs, but for me it's the same with cars. If you have a sports car you should only use its max abilities in closed circuits - again it comes down to being responsible driver. Worst case situation isn't that EUC driver kills him or herself, but that 20kg unicycle smashes to someone else and harms or kills them. And in the situation where we have only handful of countries where you can legally drive we really should drive as responsible as possible because we are under the microscope. But still I don't think that we should kill the fun for the people who really want to enjoy the speed, because that can also be enjoyed by choosing the right place - tracks, forest ect. Just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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