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Msuper v3 top speed crash - wrecked shell


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The Msuper v3 starts beeping at 37 km/h GPS speed which seems to be no matter riders weight or battery, as others report the same 36 or 37 km/h alarm. Going 35 km/h is more stable than my V5F+ at 23 km/h, if you are concerned with bystanders safety this point I need to put down here, yes it's faster and heavier but loosing control is always closer on the V5F+. I have over 2100km distance on that 14" wheel and 400km on the v3 before the crash.

Now I thought the wheel had a 50 km/h cut off speed, but I did not go over 40 km/h anywhere while any people or cars were around because I suspected it could have 45 km/h max. 40 km/h is definitely not an insane speed on this wheel, if you try it for yourself, it is not hard to reach the beeping speed on a long well paved straightaway, it's very stable and not faster than a high speed bicycle. The battery was fully charged before the ride. And because I was cruising just above the beeping doesn't make it suddenly all dangerous, just like going 1 km/h under the beeping doesn't make it suddenly all safe.

I was riding a well known path to me and only let it accelerate once, you saw what happened that time. As can be seen throughout the video the wheel has plenty of torque for my 70kg weight while going strictly between 37-40 km/h, when I had any doubt about being able to keep that speed constant I lowered it a few times. No road condition in this video was anywhere near of overpowering the wheel or challenging my ability to keep the line I wanted to go. The camera could not fully capture my field of vision, the tactile feedback from the wheel or g-forces during the ride. I have tested this wheel offroad with harsher ground conditions going over slippery terrain, hitting much harder bumps etc. at the beeping speed limit, believe me I was not taking any risks on this ride until I went into the park at the end of the video. At the top of the slope you go down to a very wide open way with only grass the size of a football field down in front, nobody in sight, early sunday morning. So I let it accelerate...

I do not know if so much torque can just vanish from 40 to 45 km/h, sure the torque might not be the most impressive of all but it is decent enough. On the other hand I don't know exactly how the motor works. A firmware overspeed limit just seems more likely, especially as it happens at the same ground speed as the ACM while the bigger wheel turns at a lower rpm.

The first alarm is at 25 km/h set from the factory, the second is at 30 km/h. It also has tiltback. This is one of the safest EUCs on the market (maybe the safest of all) if you compare it against another wheel at the same speed, because of the tire diameter and thickness plus the high power motor.

The Msuper v3 is designed for max 36 km/h (hence the last alarm starts at 37), that is 80% of max speed cut off, or the other way around you have a 25% speed buffer. That should be good enough for an experienced rider. In general use I would call the Msuper v3 a 30 km/h cruising wheel +/- 5 km/h, that puts the cutoff at a nice 150%. A medium speed version or high torque version would be what, 25 and 20 km/h respectively, isn't that too slow? The problem is claiming this is a 40, 45 or even 50 km/h wheel, which it is clearly not in real use. Market it as a 30 km/h wheel and make it clear that the 80% alarm is really 80% max speed and it will simply cut off the power when reaching 45 km/h causing an inevitable dangerous crash for the rider and risk anyone nearby plus destroy the wheel. The wheel itself is at least as good as any other wheel technically, it's the misleading and missing information that's the problem from the start, especially when the app has up to a 48 km/h tiltback option. I knew I was risking a cut off when I let it accelerate and had it served to me, but the next guy might not...

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15 minutes ago, nomad said:

The Msuper v3 starts beeping at 37 km/h GPS speed which seems to be no matter riders weight or battery, as others report the same 36 or 37 km/h alarm. Going 35 km/h is more stable than my V5F+ at 23 km/h, if you are concerned with bystanders safety this point I need to put down here, yes it's faster and heavier but loosing control is always closer on the V5F+. I have over 2100km distance on that 14" wheel and 400km on the v3 before the crash.

Now I thought the wheel had a 50 km/h cut off speed, but I did not go over 40 km/h anywhere while any people or cars were around because I suspected it could have 45 km/h max. 40 km/h is definitely not an insane speed on this wheel, if you try it for yourself, it is not hard to reach the beeping speed on a long well paved straightaway, it's very stable and not faster than a high speed bicycle. The battery was fully charged before the ride. And because I was cruising just above the beeping doesn't make it suddenly all dangerous, just like going 1 km/h under the beeping doesn't make it suddenly all safe.

I was riding a well known path to me and only let it accelerate once, you saw what happened that time. As can be seen throughout the video the wheel has plenty of torque for my 70kg weight while going strictly between 37-40 km/h, when I had any doubt about being able to keep that speed constant I lowered it a few times. No road condition in this video was anywhere near of overpowering the wheel or challenging my ability to keep the line I wanted to go. The camera could not fully capture my field of vision, the tactile feedback from the wheel or g-forces during the ride. I have tested this wheel offroad with harsher ground conditions going over slippery terrain, hitting much harder bumps etc. at the beeping speed limit, believe me I was not taking any risks on this ride until I went into the park at the end of the video. At the top of the slope you go down to a very wide open way with only grass the size of a football field down in front, nobody in sight, early sunday morning. So I let it accelerate...

I do not know if so much torque can just vanish from 40 to 45 km/h, sure the torque might not be the most impressive of all but it is decent enough. On the other hand I don't know exactly how the motor works. A firmware overspeed limit just seems more likely, especially as it happens at the same ground speed as the ACM while the bigger wheel turns at a lower rpm.

The first alarm is at 25 km/h set from the factory, the second is at 30 km/h. It also has tiltback. This is one of the safest EUCs on the market (maybe the safest of all) if you compare it against another wheel at the same speed, because of the tire diameter and thickness plus the high power motor.

The Msuper v3 is designed for max 36 km/h (hence the last alarm starts at 37), that is 80% of max speed cut off, or the other way around you have a 25% speed buffer. That should be good enough for an experienced rider. In general use I would call the Msuper v3 a 30 km/h cruising wheel +/- 5 km/h, that puts the cutoff at a nice 150%. A medium speed version or high torque version would be what, 25 and 20 km/h respectively, isn't that too slow? The problem is claiming this is a 40, 45 or even 50 km/h wheel, which it is clearly not in real use. Market it as a 30 km/h wheel and make it clear that the 80% alarm is really 80% max speed and it will simply cut off the power when reaching 45 km/h causing an inevitable dangerous crash for the rider and risk anyone nearby plus destroy the wheel. The wheel itself is at least as good as any other wheel technically, it's the misleading and missing information that's the problem from the start, especially when the app has up to a 48 km/h tiltback option. I knew I was risking a cut off when I let it accelerate and had it served to me, but the next guy might not...

thanks for more of this explanation. sounds like it was all well-thought out

i think the main thing is that WE LIKE YOU and WE WANT YOU AROUND THIS FORUM for a LONG, LONG TIME

please be safe. again... thanks for this update. we appreciate it

 

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Hi @nomad, thanks for your explanations and for sharing the video in the first place! While I can't agree with you on safe speed close to others, I feel the same excitement about the wheel itself and I am truly grateful for your first hand information correcting GWs sometimes irresposible marketing claims.

As the best thing we can take from such crash experiences is insights how to stay out of trouble, I'd like to share another theory for the cause of the cut-off that I just read on the fb pages of "The Wheelies Garage" (https://www.facebook.com/groups/thewheelies, a closed fb group, so you have to register before you can access it):

The prolonged (10+ minutes) riding above 3rd alarm level likely caused a thermal shut down.

Sounds somewhat plausible to me. If I recall correctly, one important improvement @EUC Extreme does on his competition wheels, is beefing up the cooling system. When I was doing my speed experiment on the (stock) MS3 to 45 kph, I went above the 3rd alarm for less than 2 minutes. So, time might be an important factor.

@nomad: thanks again, get better, fix your pants, and take it a bit easier around other folks, would'ya?

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26 minutes ago, nomad said:

The Msuper v3 starts beeping at 37 km/h GPS speed which seems to be no matter riders weight or battery, as others report the same 36 or 37 km/h alarm. Going 35 km/h is more stable than my V5F+ at 23 km/h, if you are concerned with bystanders safety this point I need to put down here, yes it's faster and heavier but loosing control is always closer on the V5F+. I have over 2100km distance on that 14" wheel and 400km on the v3 before the crash.

Now I thought the wheel had a 50 km/h cut off speed, but I did not go over 40 km/h anywhere while any people or cars were around because I suspected it could have 45 km/h max. 40 km/h is definitely not an insane speed on this wheel, if you try it for yourself, it is not hard to reach the beeping speed on a long well paved straightaway, it's very stable and not faster than a high speed bicycle. The battery was fully charged before the ride. And because I was cruising just above the beeping doesn't make it suddenly all dangerous, just like going 1 km/h under the beeping doesn't make it suddenly all safe.

I was riding a well known path to me and only let it accelerate once, you saw what happened that time. As can be seen throughout the video the wheel has plenty of torque for my 70kg weight while going strictly between 37-40 km/h, when I had any doubt about being able to keep that speed constant I lowered it a few times. No road condition in this video was anywhere near of overpowering the wheel or challenging my ability to keep the line I wanted to go. The camera could not fully capture my field of vision, the tactile feedback from the wheel or g-forces during the ride. I have tested this wheel offroad with harsher ground conditions going over slippery terrain, hitting much harder bumps etc. at the beeping speed limit, believe me I was not taking any risks on this ride until I went into the park at the end of the video. At the top of the slope you go down to a very wide open way with only grass the size of a football field down in front, nobody in sight, early sunday morning. So I let it accelerate...

I do not know if so much torque can just vanish from 40 to 45 km/h, sure the torque might not be the most impressive of all but it is decent enough. On the other hand I don't know exactly how the motor works. A firmware overspeed limit just seems more likely, especially as it happens at the same ground speed as the ACM while the bigger wheel turns at a lower rpm.

The first alarm is at 25 km/h set from the factory, the second is at 30 km/h. It also has tiltback. This is one of the safest EUCs on the market (maybe the safest of all) if you compare it against another wheel at the same speed, because of the tire diameter and thickness plus the high power motor.

The Msuper v3 is designed for max 36 km/h (hence the last alarm starts at 37), that is 80% of max speed cut off, or the other way around you have a 25% speed buffer. That should be good enough for an experienced rider. In general use I would call the Msuper v3 a 30 km/h cruising wheel +/- 5 km/h, that puts the cutoff at a nice 150%. A medium speed version or high torque version would be what, 25 and 20 km/h respectively, isn't that too slow? The problem is claiming this is a 40, 45 or even 50 km/h wheel, which it is clearly not in real use. Market it as a 30 km/h wheel and make it clear that the 80% alarm is really 80% max speed and it will simply cut off the power when reaching 45 km/h causing an inevitable dangerous crash for the rider and risk anyone nearby plus destroy the wheel. The wheel itself is at least as good as any other wheel technically, it's the misleading and missing information that's the problem from the start, especially when the app has up to a 48 km/h tiltback option. I knew I was risking a cut off when I let it accelerate and had it served to me, but the next guy might not...

Exactly! Claiming a wheel can do 40 - 50 km is not cool!. And apparently rider's weight doesn't matter.. This really need to be addressed. Misleading a rider is never cool!

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2 hours ago, Tilmann said:

Hi @nomad, thanks for your explanations and for sharing the video in the first place! While I can't agree with you on safe speed close to others, I feel the same excitement about the wheel itself and I am truly grateful for your first hand information correcting GWs sometimes irresposible marketing claims.

As the best thing we can take from such crash experiences is insights how to stay out of trouble, I'd like to share another theory for the cause of the cut-off that I just read on the fb pages of "The Wheelies Garage" (https://www.facebook.com/groups/thewheelies, a closed fb group, so you have to register before you can access it):

The prolonged (10+ minutes) riding above 3rd alarm level likely caused a thermal shut down.

Sounds somewhat plausible to me. If I recall correctly, one important improvement @EUC Extreme does on his competition wheels, is beefing up the cooling system. When I was doing my speed experiment on the (stock) MS3 to 45 kph, I went above the 3rd alarm for less than 2 minutes. So, time might be an important factor.

@nomad: thanks again, get better, fix your pants, and take it a bit easier around other folks, would'ya?

hmmmmm

quite frankly..... that doesn't sound just plausible..... it sounds EXACT

i'll bet that's exactly what happened as it makes perfect sense

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4 minutes ago, Greg Spalding said:

 

2 hours ago, Tilmann said:

<snip>

The prolonged (10+ minutes) riding above 3rd alarm level likely caused a thermal shut down.

<snip>

Although I've never heard it (thank you 12 mosfets) my ACM is supposed to have a verbal warning that comes on when it gets too hot. I assume the MSuper does the same thing.

If that indeed is the case doesn't that imply thermal overload wasn't the cause in this case, since I certainly didn't hear any verbal warnings?

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3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Although I've never heard it (thank you 12 mosfets) my ACM is supposed to have a verbal warning that comes on when it gets too hot. I assume the MSuper does the same thing.

If that indeed is the case doesn't that imply thermal overload wasn't the cause in this case, since I certainly didn't hear any verbal warnings?

interesting... the word "supposed to" comes in to play

has ANYONE heard this warning while riding?

if so, what EXACTLY was going on with your riding WHEN it occurred?

thanks, marty, for the education

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10 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Although I've never heard it (thank you 12 mosfets) my ACM is supposed to have a verbal warning that comes on when it gets too hot. I assume the MSuper does the same thing.

If that indeed is the case doesn't that imply thermal overload wasn't the cause in this case, since I certainly didn't hear any verbal warnings?

Srsly??? Thanks for the warning! I would have signed up for mental therapy hearing voices from any GotWay :D:o:rolleyes:

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9 minutes ago, Greg Spalding said:

interesting... the word "supposed to" comes in to play

has ANYONE heard this warning while riding?

if so, what EXACTLY was going on with your riding WHEN it occurred?

thanks, marty, for the education

 

5 minutes ago, Tilmann said:

Srsly??? Thanks for the warning! I would have signed up for mental therapy hearing voices from any GotWay :D:o:rolleyes:

The ACM V1 (6 mosfets) would overheat. It would be great if an owner of one of those who has experienced the overheating could chime in on the verbal warning.

I don't have my manual (all 4 pages of it) with me but if I recall that's where it states that a voice warning occurs if the temperature gets too high.

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18 minutes ago, Greg Spalding said:

<snip>

if so, what EXACTLY was going on with your riding WHEN it occurred?

<snip>

My KingSong 14C overheats (causing beeps and tilt-back) when riding for extended periods up a hill on a hot day. So I assume that anything that taxes the motor for long periods will raise the temperature.

When I get my MSuper I'll look at the manual and see if it says anything about verbal warnings. The thing is, with 12 mosfets it may be very difficult to test what happens if it gets too hot. Unfortunately it's much too easy to test the KS14C :(

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On 2016/10/9 at 11:45 PM, KingSong69 said:

when Gotway announced a 45kmh speed ...than this is meant to be on perfect condition...like straigght, flat road, certain tyre pessure, no headwind, no hill,. for a 70kg person!

Or 65kg even 60kg. They rated the mileage/range in similar way.

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9 hours ago, nomad said:

I do not know if so much torque can just vanish from 40 to 45 km/h, sure the torque might not be the most impressive of all but it is decent enough. On the other hand I don't know exactly how the motor works

If the cut off speed is 50, then 
at 25 you get half the torque, 
at 30 you get 2/5 of the torque 
at 40 you get 1/5 of the torque
at 45 you get 1/10 of the torque
at 49 you get 1/50 of the torque.

At n you get 1-n/50 of the torque.

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7 minutes ago, zlymex said:

If the cut off speed is 50, then 
at 25 you get half the torque, 
at 30 you get 2/5 of the torque 
at 40 you get 1/5 of the torque
at 45 you get 1/10 of the torque
at 49 you get 1/50 of the torque.

At n you get 1-n/50 of the torque.

That's the stupidness I talk about in many threads. Maximum design speed must be defined by power/ torque and the maximum design weight. The maximum design speed must cope with foreseeable risk and misuse. In the end we're not far away from 25 km/h as currently defined in PLEV.

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13 minutes ago, zlymex said:

If the cut off speed is 50, then 
at 25 you get half the torque, 
at 30 you get 2/5 of the torque 
at 40 you get 1/5 of the torque
at 45 you get 1/10 of the torque
at 49 you get 1/50 of the torque.

At n you get 1-n/50 of the torque.

Is the formula really like that?

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21 minutes ago, John Eucist said:

Is the formula really like that?

You see typical a torque curve going from max to 0 over rpm as a line across rpm range like here:

https://electricbikereview.com/forum/threads/torque-rating-on-e-bikes-marketing-gimmick.2467/

If cut off speed is equal 0 Nm is an other thing to discuss. In general Zlymex statement describes the problem.

I'm waiting for the moment someone measures power/ torque and put it in a nice Diagramm with velocity, weight and incline. This will be face off for some manufacturers.

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Overheat is the problem associated with Gotway EUC right from the start. I first encountered the problem with my MCM2 when some 10 of us was riding uphill. Most others rode IPS EUCs and were all Ok.
I personally experienced more than ten times thermal 'shutdown' on my Msuper V2, but all in slow hill climb situation therefore no risk of faceplant. The thermal 'shutdown' of Gotway EUC is just alarm beep plus severe tilt-back wich result in immediate brake and stop. 
12 MOSFET improves little as one of my friends got 6 MOSFET ACM first and then changed to 12 MOSFET board one later. He compared the two in similar uphill situations, there is not much improvement. He added a big heatsink similar to EUC Extreme but still no help. Finally we add fans hat solve the problem forever. I'm 73kg and he is less. 

V3-fan.jpg

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6 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

My KingSong 14C overheats (causing beeps and tilt-back) when riding for extended periods up a hill on a hot day. So I assume that anything that taxes the motor for long periods will raise the temperature.

When I get my MSuper I'll look at the manual and see if it says anything about verbal warnings. The thing is, with 12 mosfets it may be very difficult to test what happens if it gets too hot. Unfortunately it's much too easy to test the KS14C :(

So now I'm looking at my ACM manual and read this disturbing sentence: "Safety features: Low voltage warning tone. Automatic switch off at 45 degree side tilt angle and internal temperatures above 160 degrees"  That can't possibly be true. It actually shuts down directly? On the KingSong it beeps continuously with aggressive tilt-back.

I know that I read somewhere about a voice warning when the temperature got too high, but now I can't find where.

If the manual is correct, then maybe the temperature is what caused the shutdown.

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4 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

So now I'm looking at my ACM manual and read this disturbing sentence: "Safety features: Low voltage warning tone. Automatic switch off at 45 degree side tilt angle and internal temperatures above 160 degrees"  That can't possibly be true. It actually shuts down directly? On the KingSong it beeps continuously with aggressive tilt-back.

I know that I read somewhere about a voice warning when the temperature got too high, but now I can't find where.

If the manual is correct, then maybe the temperature is what caused the shutdown.

I really believe it was the temperature

their temperature management is not very good

the complete shutdown of the wheel when the maximum temperature is reached is irresponsible, if that is the case

GotWay is the kind a company which will be left on the side of the road with more regulations come into play if they don't choose to put safety first.

I'm sure they want to do this (maybe) but I'm not sure they have the right people in place in manufacturing and design who are capable of these things as they seem to be more concerned about making the fastest wheel of the moment... At least that is the conclusion easily reached by looking in from the outside

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7 hours ago, John Eucist said:

Is the formula really like that?

Depends if the cut off speed is the no load speed of the motor. But in general for electric motors, 100% torque at startup, 50% torque at peak power 0% torque above no load speed. Peak efficiency is usually higher RPM than peak power, while low RPM has terrible efficiency in the 50%-70% range.

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1 minute ago, lizardmech said:

Depends if the cut off speed is the no load speed of the motor. But in general for electric motors, 100% torque at startup, 50% torque at peak power 0% torque above no load speed. Peak efficiency is usually higher RPM than peak power, while low RPM has terrible efficiency in the 50%-70% range.

Thanks for that.  I recall some graph that @Jason McNeil posted a while back showing maximum torque at some "middle portion" of the speed curve.  Maybe I misinterpreted that or it was only for a specific model euc.  That's why I was curious.

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7 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

So now I'm looking at my ACM manual and read this disturbing sentence: "Safety features: Low voltage warning tone. Automatic switch off at 45 degree side tilt angle and internal temperatures above 160 degrees"  That can't possibly be true. It actually shuts down directly? On the KingSong it beeps continuously with aggressive tilt-back.

I know that I read somewhere about a voice warning when the temperature got too high, but now I can't find where.

If the manual is correct, then maybe the temperature is what caused the shutdown.

This would be a disaster if this is true. On msuper 2 the motor doesnt shut down upon overheating, it starts tilting back and forth like on kingsongs. We shoukd confirm msuoer 3 doesnt shut down the motor in the event of overheating

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8 hours ago, zlymex said:

If the cut off speed is 50, then 
at 25 you get half the torque, 
at 30 you get 2/5 of the torque 
at 40 you get 1/5 of the torque
at 45 you get 1/10 of the torque
at 49 you get 1/50 of the torque.

At n you get 1-n/50 of the torque.

 

50 minutes ago, lizardmech said:

Depends if the cut off speed is the no load speed of the motor. But in general for electric motors, 100% torque at startup, 50% torque at peak power 0% torque above no load speed. Peak efficiency is usually higher RPM than peak power, while low RPM has terrible efficiency in the 50%-70% range.

@KingSong69 ? (or was it someone else) posted once, that the 'lift cut-off' speed of the ?ACM 16/MSuper V3? stays at around 52 km/h independently of the battery charge (~voltage). As far as i know, the max no load speed is reached once no current can flow anymore (battery voltage == motor generated voltage), which means that this no load speed is voltage dependend. So imho the real no load speed of these wheel has to be higher and the firmware implements a lower cut of speed.

Edit:

If my assupmtions are right and if the new GW's reach a lift cut off speed of 52 km/h with an battery voltage of just 55V the reachable max speed with a full battery (67,2V) should be 52km/h/55V*67.2V=63,5 km/h.

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1 hour ago, Cloud said:

This would be a disaster if this is true. On msuper 2 the motor doesnt shut down upon overheating, it starts tilting back and forth like on kingsongs. We shoukd confirm msuoer 3 doesnt shut down the motor in the event of overheating

@Marty Backe As i know you get a warning/tiltbackwhen temperature is at 70 or 80 degree! 80degree is what the mosfets can max run!

160 degree is SO MUCH way off, that a shut off is acceptable as at this temperatures as other faults will have come before, your mosfets are melted anyway....

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