Begode ET MAX Announcement

[Rider1]

On 2/14/2024 at 10:05 AM, techyiam said:

In the mean time, somebody should be testing out the swingarm alternative, which would be way more cost effective if it works for euc's.

This sadly won‘t work, I already did many sketches simulating such a mechanism and the problem will always be the fact that when moving up an down, the wheel will also move longitudinally relative to the pedals. So, if the suspension compresses, your pedals will move forward resulting in very strong acceleration (up to a certain point, afterwards the exact opposite). Minimizing this effect would be possible by a longer swingarm, which would however stick out in front of the wheel quite a bit - not ideal either.

Therefore, the two approaches right now (vertical sliders with linkage and sliders with integrated springs an dampeners) seem to be the only options. I really hope that Begode can improve the quality and longevity of their sliders in this next generation…

[techyiam]

13 hours ago, Rider1 said:

This sadly won‘t work, I already did many sketches simulating such a mechanism and the problem will always be the fact that when moving up an down, the wheel will also move longitudinally relative to the pedals. So, if the suspension compresses, your pedals will move forward resulting in very strong acceleration (up to a certain point, afterwards the exact opposite). Minimizing this effect would be possible by a longer swingarm, which would however stick out in front of the wheel quite a bit - not ideal either.

Would you mind sharing some of your sketches?

 

On another note, how about using a leaf-spring, foregoing damping for the moment?

I suppose there can still be some unwanted fore-aft movements.

 

A Robert's Linkage would solve the fore-aft axle movements during suspension action. However, this is a four bar linkage requiring four bearings per side. So, probably not the way to go also.

 

Maybe another approach would to borrow the roller slider concept from the S22, but instead put in inline skate wheels as rollers down the centre of the wheel, with only one slider on each side. And have the channel guide attached to the axle and the open slot facing away from the wheel. And have the rollers mounted on the battery boxes.

Edited February 18 by techyiam

[Frolic0415]

 

[Panzer04]

14 hours ago, Rider1 said:

This sadly won‘t work, I already did many sketches simulating such a mechanism and the problem will always be the fact that when moving up an down, the wheel will also move longitudinally relative to the pedals. So, if the suspension compresses, your pedals will move forward resulting in very strong acceleration (up to a certain point, afterwards the exact opposite). Minimizing this effect would be possible by a longer swingarm, which would however stick out in front of the wheel quite a bit - not ideal either.

Therefore, the two approaches right now (vertical sliders with linkage and sliders with integrated springs an dampeners) seem to be the only options. I really hope that Begode can improve the quality and longevity of their sliders in this next generation…

I looked into something similar, straight-line mechanisms. The problem it appeared to me was that at that point you needed a lot of bearings, at which point it becomes questionable if its even worth doing that rather than current stanchion/slider designs. The other issue is that we probably do care about fixing the motor angle over the range of motion, which further complicates matters. Something like a Sarrus linkage looks promising, but I'm not entirely sure how to fit such a mechanism into an EUC. I'm also unsure how durable a "true" straight-line (or approximately straight) linkage could be made.

14 hours ago, techyiam said:

The Leaper Kim suspension wheels concept is in the right direction. It's just their implementation is not all there.

Notice Leaper Kim used an upside-down fork. the stanchions are bolted to the axle, so it is unsprung mass. The outer slider housing is sprung mass. The two battery packs and riders are the main sprung masses. And so there should be a frame fixing the pedal and battery packs along with the top box to from a strong and rigid structure that has an upside-down U shape, to hang the suspension.

One of the main reasons why quality front forks are so expensive is because in order to have low stiction and almost no play, is that very high precision components are needed, among other design requirements. Loosey-goosey don't cut it.

One thing I am impressed with the Hou Ningning roller sliders inside the S22 slider tracks is that there is no perceivable play and very low stiction for reasonably low cost. Unfortunately, it is an open-design.

As for the ET Max slider design, all we can see so far is that the stanchions' surfaces are coated or treated. Not sure if that is just for aesthetics or it is part of an improvement in slider design. The biggie is in the bushings, and stanchions tolerances, and alignment.

I still do not understand your complaint (which, to be clear: "You are suppose to hang a suspension off a frame. The original Master hangs major parts off the suspension. That is fundamentally wrong, structurally."). The entire point of suspension is to hang as much of the required mass off the sliding part of the suspension as possible. The batteries , frame and pedals are mounted at the ends of the sliding rods - how else could it be done?

I don't want to belabour the point and will drop it, but it's just an odd and (imo) unjustified criticism thus far.

[Rider1]

23 hours ago, techyiam said:

Would you mind sharing some of your sketches?

Not at all, I'll re-do and share them when I have time. But I think this discussion would deserve its own thread ("Different approaches for suspension on EUCs" or thereabout).

 

23 hours ago, techyiam said:

On another note, how about using a leaf-spring, foregoing damping for the moment?

I suppose there can still be some unwanted fore-aft movements.

Hm, interesting idea, but its probably too heavy, bulky and as you said not precise enough.

 

23 hours ago, techyiam said:

A Robert's Linkage would solve the fore-aft axle movements during suspension action. However, this is a four bar linkage requiring four bearings per side. So, probably not the way to go also.

I also thought about that, but I think having a really complex linkage systems isn't worth it compared to "normal" sliders.

 

23 hours ago, techyiam said:

Maybe another approach would to borrow the roller slider concept from the S22, but instead put in inline skate wheels as rollers down the centre of the wheel, with only one slider on each side. And have the channel guide attached to the axle and the open slot facing away from the wheel. And have the rollers mounted on the battery boxes.

That's a great idea, I hope Kingsong doesn't give up on their roller slider concept and further improves it (maybe in the direction you mentioned), some competition with totally different designs is always nice to see! The only problem with that might be the height needed in order to keep the resulting forces small enough (since there's only one instead of two sliders per side).

May I ask one of the mods to move this conversation into a separate thread? Thanks in advance!

[eucVibes]

 

[Ronin Ryder]

 

[techyiam]

@Ronin Ryder

How would you rank the Lynx, EX30, and ET Max for riding  on NYC streets at speeds between 30 mph and 40-ish mph? You can throw in the Extreme too.

[Ronin Ryder]

7 hours ago, techyiam said:

@Ronin Ryder

How would you rank the Lynx, EX30, and ET Max for riding  on NYC streets at speeds between 30 mph and 40-ish mph? You can throw in the Extreme too.

Interesting question, granted i just spent a short time with the ET Max (wheel is with Hsiang) 

1-ET MAX (stability, power, pedals) 

2-LYNX (design, power) 

3-Extreme (fun factor, stability) 

4-EX30 (power, stability) 

Here comes a new challenger: CPro50S that i would rank 1st. 

 

Edited February 20 by Ronin Ryder

[Robse]

Just found this: 

 

 

 

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, Robse said:

Just found this: 

I appreciate Dawn's candor in her second impression of the ET Max.

However, with a rider of a bigger stature, perhaps the outcome of the review could have been more positive.

Too bad, no sag was mentioned, so we don't know how over-sprung the suspension is for her, and how off was the damping settings.

Edited February 22 by techyiam

[Jason McNeil]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

so we don't know how over-sprung the suspension is for her, and how off was damping settings.

Yeah, it may not be widely known, that these Begode shocks come in two spring weights, the 900lb & 1,300lb. By default, BG installs the heavier 1,300lb. I've requested that they split the production between the two for lighter Riders.  

[Ronin Ryder]

15 hours ago, techyiam said:

I appreciate Dawn's candor in her second impression of the ET Max.

However, with a rider of a bigger stature, perhaps the outcome of the review could have been more positive.

Too bad, no sag was mentioned, so we don't know how over-sprung the suspension is for her, and how off was the damping settings.

Who do you refer to? 😉

[Cerbera]

Lovely Dawn here, showing us some very impressive power levels on the ET Max.

She starts at 90%, rides 22 miles and 5000 ft or so up a mountain, averaging 40-50 mph most of the way, recharges at 18 amps at the top and comes back down again even faster ! New top speed for her at 63 mph at 81% PWM (145.0v / 50%), which is fairly bloody impressive if you ask me, and quite brave of her to be trying on a half empty pack on a largely untested wheel...

You can see she's getting (non-developing, controllable) wobbles sometimes, and her legs get tired much faster than what I would expect in someone of her vast XP level, so she is obviously feeling the tall size and increased weight, coming, as she does, mostly from the EX-30 that was her previously favourite wheel ! She really likes this one tho !

Edited February 23 by Cerbera

[Panzer04]

1 hour ago, Cerbera said:

Lovely Dawn here, showing us some very impressive power levels on the ET Max.

She starts at 90%, rides 22 miles up a mountain, averaging 40-50 mph most of the way, recharges at 18 amps at the top and comes back down again even faster ! New top speed for her at 63 mph at 81% PWM (145.0v / 50%), which is fairly bloody impressive if you ask me, and quite brave of her to be trying on a half empty pack on a largely untested wheel...

You can see she's getting (non-developing, controllable) wobbles sometimes, and her legs get tired much faster than what I would expect in someone of her XP level, so she is obviously feeling the tall size and increased weight, coming, as she does, mostly from the EX-30 that was her previously favourite wheel ! She really likes this one tho !

I'm curious if she uses PWM beeps or not. I find many people just don't understand how to configure their wheels to warn them safely and consistently. With correctly configured PWM warnings and tiltback the battery level and speed just doesn't matter, you can rely on the wheel to protect you (unless field weakening is screwing with the PWM reporting, as I've heard....)

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, Panzer04 said:

I'm curious if she uses PWM beeps or not. I find many people just don't understand how to configure their wheels to warn them safely and consistently.

She certainly did the other day when I noticed she was running EUC World at some point, but I think she is mostly darknessbot ? She does know about PWMs tho and frequently references them in her various videos...

[null]

Speaking of PWM it should be shown on the display, it’s maybe the most important number together with speed. It's certainly more usefull than odometer. (And while at it; show the battery status with a useful number of bars, or make it a percentage..)

Edited February 23 by null

[WheelGoodTime]

 

[techyiam]

It sounding like the ET Max is a wheel that competes in the V13 Class of sort.

[WheelGoodTime]

38 minutes ago, techyiam said:

It sounding like the ET Max is a wheel that competes in the V13 Class of sort.

Those are exactly my thoughts! 🙂

[Ronin Ryder]

2 hours ago, WheelGoodTime said:

 

New concept, reviewing a wheel by FaceTime, genius idea and no need to hustle for wheels anymore ! Taking notes right here 😉

More seriously, is the PWM accurate on the ETMAX with magnetic weakening? I suspect dawn has it activated so im expecting PWM to not be correct. Unless something new happened. I personally would like it to be accurate cause at those speeds its critical. 

Edited February 23 by Ronin Ryder

[WheelGoodTime]

2 hours ago, Ronin Ryder said:

New concept, reviewing a wheel by FaceTime, genius idea and no need to hustle for wheels anymore ! Taking notes right here 😉

More seriously, is the PWM accurate on the ETMAX with magnetic weakening? I suspect dawn has it activated so im expecting PWM to not be correct. Unless something new happened. I personally would like it to be accurate cause at those speeds its critical. 

I haven't yet been a part of the "eWheels EUC review circuit," so this is how I get by without getting my hands on the latest greatest EUCs 😂 Plus, it gives positive and well-deserved publicity to e-Rides and Afeez - he's a great guy and an absolute wealth of knowledge.

[Ronin Ryder]

18 hours ago, WheelGoodTime said:

I haven't yet been a part of the "eWheels EUC review circuit," so this is how I get by without getting my hands on the latest greatest EUCs 😂 Plus, it gives positive and well-deserved publicity to e-Rides and Afeez - he's a great guy and an absolute wealth of knowledge.

There is no need to be part of any "circuit" to review new wheels, i did it for practically 2 years sir! Admittedly, It does require efforts that most aren't ready to produce.

To reply to my own questions on the ET MAX previously, discussed with Dawn and she didn't activate the magnetic weakening hence why the PWM was useable. Great performance coming from this wheel.

Edited February 24 by Ronin Ryder

[Clem604]

 

[The Brahan Seer]

Maribel's take on the ET Max, first impressions and good visual/weight comparison with GT Pro at end.

 

Edited March 10 by The Brahan Seer