Begode ET MAX Announcement

[techyiam]

55 minutes ago, Panzer04 said:

Wheels aren't that complex, not surprising et max looks like their other wheels but with tweaks. I'd expect all of these improvements to trickle down to cheaper wheels, nothing fundamentally more expensive here - that price tag is pure gravy for Begode, they see LK charging 4k and people paying it and want in.

It is like saying the Porche 911 is a Volkswagen Beetle with tweaks. They both have air-cooled engines behind the rear axle.  

1 hour ago, Panzer04 said:

A couple hundred extra BOM cost at absolute most, tack on another 1.5-2k onto the price.

Pure speculation on your part.

Roger is one of many racers who have made modifications to his and others Masters. I would think he and others are pretty familiar with the Master. And yet, he has openly stated he is interested in getting a ET Max.

Incidentally, what type of mods have you done to Masters, if any? You seemingly coming across if you have in depth knowledge and experience.

[techyiam]

19 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

They drastically need to come up with improvements or changes for their slider system, it's the big weakpoint of their suspension solution, so many problems and so much wear requires a lot of maintenance, huge turnoff IMO.

Does your comment include the ET Max sliders. If yes, is it not too early to condemn it without knowing more. We haven't seen the bushings nor the tolerances yet. Plus, with wet-lubricated sliders, the price will shoot up even higher.

Based on what is already out, which linkage suspension wheel has the best sliders to date?

[Rawnei]

Just now, techyiam said:

Does your comment include the ET Max sliders. If yes, is it not too early to condemn it without knowing more. We haven't seen the bushings nor the tolerances yet. Plus, with wet-lubricated sliders, the price will shoot up even higher.

Based on what is already out, which linkage suspension wheel has the best sliders to date?

It's the same on all of the Begode wheels, ET Max being no exception.

There are 2 main problems:

One is that there is several places where screws can be too tight causing sliders to lock up or perform worse, possibly this could come down to tolerances but the whole system relies on a bunch of different screws having the perfect tightness.

The second one is that dirt easily comes into the bushings from the top causing various problems, this could be at least partly remedied with some sort of wiper but the problem is compounded by the direction of the sliders combined with really crappy fender solution spraying dirt everywhere in the wheel well, a wiper and better fender seems at least like low hanging fruit to help with that.

Every single Begode suspension wheel owner I know had/has problems because of these things and it's very common to see Facebook posts about these issues asking for help how to maintain it.

The alarming thing that I see is that they just settled for this overall slider design and stopped making improvements on it, we just see various changes on the linkages (which are still not quite there).

[techyiam]

11 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

It's the same on all of the Begode wheels, ET Max being no exception.

Your speculation may turned out to be true. But I'll wait for the Eco-Drift Life teardown video.

[Rawnei]

2 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Your speculation may turned out to be true. But I'll wait for the Eco-Drift Life teardown video.

You can already see it in the erides video.

[Julianjc84]

40 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Does your comment include the ET Max sliders. If yes, is it not too early to condemn it without knowing more. We haven't seen the bushings nor the tolerances yet. Plus, with wet-lubricated sliders, the price will shoot up even higher.

Its a BEGODE.
there is no way there are wet bushing. its impossible to fit them. these stanchion sliders are just black anodized. They are 100% the same as past models.
red marks indicate where the graphite, brass bushing sit. Just maybe they are using nylon teflon But the grub screw for the bushings makes this very very unlikely.

Edited February 14 by Julianjc84

[techyiam]

15 minutes ago, Julianjc84 said:

there is no way there are wet bushing.

That's what I said. But we don't know the tolerances.

The problem with wet-lubed sliders is that it doesn't make economic sense not to add a damping circuit and a spring.

 

For linkage suspension, there still isn't a good slider that we are sure of. Supposedly, the V14 sliders are better, but no one has shown how good they really are yet.

Edited February 14 by techyiam

[Panzer04]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

It is like saying the Porche 911 is a Volkswagen Beetle with tweaks. They both have air-cooled engines behind the rear axle.  

Pure speculation on your part.

Roger is one of many racers who have made modifications to his and others Masters. I would think he and others are pretty familiar with the Master. And yet, he has openly stated he is interested in getting a ET Max.

Incidentally, what type of mods have you done to Masters, if any? You seemingly coming across if you have in depth knowledge and experience.

600wh battery is 100$ in volume, all of the machinining must be done either way - the marginal cost of the longer suspension, different linkage shapes etc would be near zero. The cost of the higher voltage motherboard would also be fairly small, if it's more expensive at all, as they pretty much just need higher voltage caps and MOSFETs (assuming the old board was designed for eg. 150V max).

I have done no serious mods to my master at this point, although I have mulled over a suspension extension (either diy or kit).

[Planemo]

14 minutes ago, techyiam said:

The problem with wet-lubed sliders is that it doesn't make economic sense not to add a damping circuit and a spring.

True, but if Begode etc want to stick with a linkage/separate shock system (which does have its benefits) then my answer would be to simply use a similar setup to the FastAce Sherman but effectively run empty stanchions. Job done.

The current open, dry lube setup is shit, no question. Sugar coating the stanchions without running a proper seal + oil sponge is like putting a plaster on an open fracture.

[techyiam]

10 minutes ago, Planemo said:

True, but if Begode etc want to stick with a linkage/separate shock system (which does have its benefits) then my answer would be to simply use a similar setup to the FastAce Sherman but effectively run empty stanchions. Job done.

The current open, dry lube setup is shit, no question. Sugar coating the stanchions without running a proper seal + oil sponge is like putting a plaster on an open fracture.

I guess we have to wait until somebody can come up with good sliders at a reasonable cost.

In the mean time, somebody should be testing out the swingarm alternative, which would be way more cost effective if it works for euc's. 

[Rawnei]

43 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I guess we have to wait until somebody can come up with good sliders at a reasonable cost.

In the mean time, somebody should be testing out the swingarm alternative, which would be way more cost effective if it works for euc's. 

Preferably the designer and manufacturer of the wheel.

[techyiam]

21 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Preferably the designer and manufacturer of the wheel.

That would be ideal.

But if Kingsong is any indication with their original sliders for the S22, the wait could be a life time

The best we can hope for is for them to copy a good design without patent infringement.

[Rawnei]

3 minutes ago, techyiam said:

That would be ideal.

But if Kingsong is any indication with their original sliders for the S22, the wait could be a life time

The best we can hope for is for them to copy a good design without patent infringement.

As I already wrote, if they make the fender better to stop dirt from spraying everywhere and make some kind of wiper above the bushing they already improved it a lot even if it's still not ideal with an open system.

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, Planemo said:

my answer would be to simply use a similar setup to the FastAce Sherman but effectively run empty stanchions. Job done.

Actually, they already have a design via Extreme Bull Commander GT Pro no name brand hydraulic struts. It's already bottom of the barrel cheap. And they are still not using it. It's costs that is the problem.

[Planemo]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

Actually, they already have a design via Extreme Bull Commander GT Pro no name brand hydraulic struts.

Actually I had forgotten that Begode had already used an MTB type setup some time back on the Commander Pro

[techyiam]

On 2/13/2024 at 8:09 PM, Julianjc84 said:

ET MAX is just a Master V4 with increased suspension travel. and 'maybe better geometry'

FYI

Quote

Maribel Vargas

Top Contributor

I have a question. Does it feel like the master?

 

Chance Hinz

Author

Top Contributor

Maribel Vargas absolutely not

 

David Vo

Top Contributor

Chance Hinz Does it feel like a Commander Pro?

Chance Hinz

Author

Top Contributor

David Vo no not at all, it’s a pretty unique feeling I’m still not sure of how it feels but it’s different than anything Iv ever ridden. Almost reminded me of a maspro but smaller? Hard to explain but for sure a new type of riding experience for me

 

[Panzer04]

10 hours ago, techyiam said:

FYI

 

It weighs 50kg, I'm not sure I'd say it riding like a smaller Master Pro is a complement. If anything, it shows that ride-wise weight is really all that matters. You can probably play tricks with weight distribution but there's only so much you can do when you want to keep high pedals for suspension travel room and pedal clip avoidance.

I'm really hoping the next generation of high-performance EUCs really tries to nail a lightweight BBW. So far, the closest is the OG masters and the S22 (37, 35kg if the spec sheets are to be believed), and my experience on an S22 bears this out. Both have something of a stigma - it would be nice for a freshly designed model that addresses the reliability problems. I'm a bit sad Begode took the other approach for the ET max, but it need not be exclusive with a lower-weight model.

[techyiam]

13 minutes ago, Panzer04 said:

I'm not sure I'd say it riding like a smaller Master Pro is a complement.

That is not what he said.

Quote

it’s a pretty unique feeling I’m still not sure of how it feels but it’s different than anything Iv ever ridden. Almost reminded me of a maspro but smaller? Hard to explain but for sure a new type of riding experience for me

It's best to wait to get on one before making all kind of guesses.

16 minutes ago, Panzer04 said:

It weighs 50kg

The ET Max weighs 108 lbs. The V13 weighs 110 lbs. I like the way the V13 rides. I already ride an Abrams, so I have already gotten used to the weight. I found the V13 to be even easier to ride than my 97 lbs Abrams. So, the 108 lbs may not be to your liking. But for others there may be many that are OK with it. Time will tell.

 

24 minutes ago, Panzer04 said:

You can probably play tricks with weight distribution but there's only so much you can do when you want to keep high pedals for suspension travel room and pedal clip avoidance.

The Patton has suspension and weighs 89.3 lbs. An Abrams which doesn't have suspension weighs about 7 lbs more. You should ride the Patton and Abrams back-to-back. It is a world of difference in those seven pounds. The Patton was super easier to ride than the Abrams, even though the Abrams pedals are low. Incidentally, the EX30 weighs 101 lbs. The 90 lbs Patton was way, way easier to ride than the EX30 for me. Until getting on a ET Max, it is hard to guess how ET Max will ride in my opinion.

 

30 minutes ago, Panzer04 said:

I'm really hoping the next generation of high-performance EUCs really tries to nail a lightweight BBW. So far, the closest is the OG masters and the S22 (37, 35kg if the spec sheets are to be believed), and my experience on an S22 bears this out.

Riding the 90 lbs Patton and the 77 lbs S22 back-to-back, the Patton certainly wasn't harder to ride. I think many would like how easy the Patton rides. The Lynx is even more polish.

 

You are suppose to hang a suspension off a frame. The original Master hangs major parts off the suspension. That is fundamentally wrong, structurally. The main sprung weight is comprise of the rider and the batteries. The motor and wheel assembly is an unsprung weight, even though it is one of the heavier components of an euc.

The main sprung load needs its own frame to be structurally strong and rigid by itself without the help of the suspension pieces. Then you hang a suspension onto it. Think motorcycle, or any motor vehicle for that matter.

 

45 minutes ago, Panzer04 said:

I'm a bit sad Begode took the other approach for the ET max ...

For me, it is still early to tell. Once I see it in person and get on one, I would know whether the ET Max is on the table for me or not.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

19 hours ago, techyiam said:

You are suppose to hang a suspension off a frame. The original Master hangs major parts off the suspension. That is fundamentally wrong, structurally. The main sprung weight is comprise of the rider and the batteries. The motor and wheel assembly is an unsprung weight, even though it is one of the heavier components of an euc.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if not, that's not quite right.
The unsprung mass on the Master consists only of the motor, the aluminium sliders and the aluminium triple clamp. You can't have much less and it's no different with a motorbike front fork.

[jtm94]

I don't have issues with the Begode slider design aside from the set screw piercing the graphite holes in the bushings, or there being a lack of rigidity that can cause binding due to poor allignment. I changed the bushings to solid longer bushings which removed slop and silenced my rattling suspension problems. I sourced some plastic bushings and they may work even better in terms of decreasing friction. No need to add wet seals or a wiper system to overcomplicate things imo.

Suggesting hydraulic pistons/rods as a slider mechanism is kinda redundant. If you're going to use that you may as well just use fork style suspension otherwise you will incur the maintenance/cost/complexity of both systems.

I'm curious as to what design changes they've made on the ET and if they finally were able to design something around good suspension geometry instead of trying to cram working suspension into their wheels as an afterthought.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, EUC Custom Power-Pads said:

The unsprung mass on the Master consists only of the motor, the aluminium sliders and the aluminium triple clamp. You can't have much less and it's no different with a motorbike front fork.

The unsprung mass consists of the motor/wheel assembly, the alloy slider housing bodies, but not the steel stanchions.

In any case, you are missing my point.

[techyiam]

8 minutes ago, jtm94 said:

I don't have issues with the Begode slider design aside from the set screw piercing the graphite holes in the bushings, or there being a lack of rigidity that can cause binding due to poor allignment. I changed the bushings to solid longer bushings which removed slop and silenced my rattling suspension problems. I sourced some plastic bushings and they may work even better in terms of decreasing friction. No need to add wet seals or a wiper system to overcomplicate things imo.

Good data point.

I don't own a Begode suspension wheel, so I haven't done any slider mods.

With your mod, how is stiction and durability. 

I am with you on not using a front fork as sliders. Somebody needs come up with a more cost effective solution. 

[Panzer04]

14 minutes ago, techyiam said:

The unsprung mass consists of the motor/wheel assembly, the alloy slider housing bodies, but not the steel stanchions.

In any case, you are missing my point.

I'm not sure what you mean? How do you think the suspension should be set up? The way the Master handles things is basically identical to the Leaperkim wheels sans the stanchions being dry-lubed. IIRC Leaperkim has the rods move instead of the stanchion, but that hardly matters. It's much better than eg. V11 where only the pedals and shell moves.

19 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Good data point.

I don't own a Begode suspension wheel, so I haven't done any slider mods.

With your mod, how is stiction and durability. 

I am with you on not using a front fork as sliders. Somebody needs come up with a more cost effective solution. 

Not the person you replied to, but a lot can be done to loosen up the Begode sliding suspension by simply loosening up some bolts. It's certainly not ideal that it requires these tweaks (if it all lined up without warping and binding that would obviously be preferred). Ideally the ET max addresses some of these problems (I'd certainly hope so for the premium price)

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

2 hours ago, jtm94 said:

I don't have issues with the Begode slider design aside from the set screw piercing the graphite holes in the bushings

Even if these screws are still present, they are superfluous and no longer need for adjusting the bearing play. New bushes with almost no play have been fitted since Master V3.

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, Panzer04 said:

I'm not sure what you mean? How do you think the suspension should be set up? The way the Master handles things is basically identical to the Leaperkim wheels sans the stanchions being dry-lubed. IIRC Leaperkim has the rods move instead of the stanchion, but that hardly matters. It's much better than eg. V11 where only the pedals and shell moves.

The Leaper Kim suspension wheels concept is in the right direction. It's just their implementation is not all there.

Notice Leaper Kim used an upside-down fork. the stanchions are bolted to the axle, so it is unsprung mass. The outer slider housing is sprung mass. The two battery packs and riders are the main sprung masses. And so there should be a frame fixing the pedal and battery packs along with the top box to from a strong and rigid structure that has an upside-down U shape, to hang the suspension.

2 hours ago, Panzer04 said:

Not the person you replied to, but a lot can be done to loosen up the Begode sliding suspension by simply loosening up some bolts. It's certainly not ideal that it requires these tweaks (if it all lined up without warping and binding that would obviously be preferred). Ideally the ET max addresses some of these problems (I'd certainly hope so for the premium price)

One of the main reasons why quality front forks are so expensive is because in order to have low stiction and almost no play, is that very high precision components are needed, among other design requirements. Loosey-goosey don't cut it.

One thing I am impressed with the Hou Ningning roller sliders inside the S22 slider tracks is that there is no perceivable play and very low stiction for reasonably low cost. Unfortunately, it is an open-design.

As for the ET Max slider design, all we can see so far is that the stanchions' surfaces are coated or treated. Not sure if that is just for aesthetics or it is part of an improvement in slider design. The biggie is in the bushings, and stanchions tolerances, and alignment.

Edited February 17 by techyiam