Is EUC a Way of Travel Or is it a Sport???

[Scubadragonsan]

Yes, plenty of presumptions based on limited or a lot of experience, good and bad, right or wrong. Then each has to find his/her own path!

[upL8N8]

5 hours ago, eezo said:

There's nothing wrong with buying a V12/V13/EX30/etc as someone's first wheel. It's not the easiest way to learn and they're making it harder on themselves, but people can buy whatever they want. Choosing to buy a big heavy wheel as a first wheel is a completely separate choice from choosing to make unsafe, ignorant, and dangerous choices in how they ride the wheel.

Also the person you're replying to is 100% wrong about helmet safety data. This article is an overview, here's the underlying study. Someone comparing motorcycle helmets to COVID vaccines is clearly someone who doesn't care about the science of mortality rates.

So you're saying we shouldn't simply take some random guy on the internet's word for it who can't seem to find the source of data he used for his book 24 years ago (that may or may not exist, and may or may not have been completely faulty) and has jumped to the conclusion that not being able to find 24+ year old data on the internet is actually just a big government conspiracy? 🤔

Ironically, said dude is suggesting helmets actually increase rate of mortality, but is wearing a helmet in his videos....🙃

I love that this guy keeps comparing bikes and motorcycles to EUCs though.  Difference between EUCs and these other types of vehicles is that EUCs have one wheel.  Any mechanical or electric failure will cause the rider to crash on an EUC, where that may not be the case on a two wheeled vehicle.  A simple fuse, capacitor, or mosfet can blow in an EUC at high speed and throw you forward face first.  I don't care how skilled the rider thinks they are, there is nothing they can do to make such an unexpected failure and fall graceful.

We've seen time and again people cutting out due to overlean or EUC failure and the damage it can cause to body parts like knees, elbows, shoulders, faces, ribs, etc.  We've also seen people falling at high speeds wearing gear, the gear being tore up pretty good, yet minimal bodily damage.   For that guy to presume that his own experiences of getting lucky are representative of the usefulness of safety gear on average is all just a bit silly.

People have the right to do whatever they want with their own bodies so long as it doesn't threaten others, but promoting unsafe practices without any evidence to back up his statements is just irresponsible.

BTW, you can be the best rider in the world, and still have a car rear end you or cut you off.  Happily it doesn't happen to the majority of us, but to the people it does happen to, wearing the right safety gear may very well minimize damage or even save your life.

Edited August 10, 2023 by upL8N8

[upL8N8]

On whether helmets increase the risk of neck injuries:

Summary article: https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/755251

Study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29506463/

The answer is no.  They actually reduce risk of neck injury based on statistical analysis.  Sure, there could be some cases where they could cause neck injury where lack of a helmet would have avoided the injury, but statistically that would occur less often.  In those cases, by not wearing a helmet, maybe a neck injury would have been avoided, but a more serious head injury would have occurred instead.  No way to know without studying that specific circumstance.

That said, what Elliot doesn't say in his diatribe is that if he's so concerned with neck injuries from helmets, there are ways that risk can be reduced with a neck brace in addition to a helmet.  Now you have head and neck protection.  People often wear neck braces in motorsports, but are less likely to wear them in street riding; although it certainly wouldn't hurt if you wanted to be extra safe.  I believe the EUC streamer Alexis was wearing a neck brace.

As someone whose had a cervical injury from a combination of bad sleeping habits to weaken the spine and head contact in hockey causing a disc bulge... even the more minor spinal injuries are no joke.

Edited August 10, 2023 by upL8N8

[eezo]

42 minutes ago, upL8N8 said:

you can be the best rider in the world, and still have a car rear end you or cut you off.  Happily it doesn't happen to the majority of us, but to the people it does happen to, wearing the right safety gear may very well minimize damage or even save your life.

Like the guy with the open compound fracture in the other subforum who has no memory of what happened, but all signs point to a hit and run driver. He was wearing a mountain bike helmet with no impact safety certifications, just MIPS which in isolation is virtually meaningless. There was no way for him to prevent whatever happened to him, and if he was wearing a Snell or ECE helmet he probably would know what happened.

Edited August 10, 2023 by eezo

[mrelwood]

 

On 8/10/2023 at 4:20 PM, Nostris said:

This give a totally false sense of security, and can lead to irresponsible and stupid riding practices .

I’ve seen plenty people ride irresponsibly and stupid without any gear. Actually out of the ones without gear, a higher percentage of riders seem to ride irresponsibly and stupid.

[Finn Bjerke]

It can be both dont forget to have fun, also the 2 alternatives mentioned by threadstarter are a little absurd.

Hobby or sport ?   Maybe both
Commuting or fun generator ? Maybe both
Off road or on road ? Maybe both...
VIsit nature or urban areas? Maybe both....

There are def many ways of enjoying your EUC(s)  My dog loves my EUC rides:

 

[UniVehje]

 

Answering here to a comment from another thread.

1 hour ago, Mono said:

But then, I hate that I only see people looking like aliens when I search for EUC related videos done by experienced riders and how this shapes the (probably wrong) perception of how EUCs are mostly used. I don't hate these guys though, I just hate the fact that they dominate the perception which isn't really in their control either.

Yes, this is why we don't get those small and "slow" wheels for commuters. The best way to sell wheels for manufacturers is through YouTube -> give wheels to most watched YouTubers -> best way to get views is to do something crazy like jumping or riding really fast -> most views are for crazy riding -> most wheels are sold through these riders -> most wheels are made for these riders. A normal sensible commuter wheel just doesn't get the attention to gain new users. 

[Finn Bjerke]

SAfety gear for EUC looks funny but its def needed.  Yeag EUC looks kinda funny for most ppl....... so what? 

Edited January 19 by Finn Bjerke

[Funky]

49 minutes ago, Finn Bjerke said:

SAfety gear for EUC looks funny but its def needed.  Yeag EUC looks kinda funny for most ppl....... so what? 

Yes it's needed, but not really. If you ride fast and with cars - ofc you need it. Going slower on sidewalks - not really.

3 years - no gear at all in winter (i got that puffy jacket and puffy gloves..) Sliding on ice/snow - not a problem. Even going fully down. This winter already went down 2 times. As for summer i'm mostly using only wrist guards. When i go for "fun" rides then i gear up with knee/wrist guards and helmet.

So far - So good. I don't even count winter slides/falls as they are pretty normal/expected. As for summer, only time i will crash is when euc stops working - so be it. I'm okay with that.

[Finn Bjerke]

"Safety gear not really needed"  is extremly risky methinks. 

[Mono]

9 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Yes, this is why we don't get those small and "slow" wheels for commuters. The best way to sell wheels for manufacturers is through YouTube -> give wheels to most watched YouTubers -> best way to get views is to do something crazy like jumping or riding really fast -> most views are for crazy riding -> most wheels are sold through these riders -> most wheels are made for these riders. A normal sensible commuter wheel just doesn't get the attention to gain new users. 

Right, I'd be slightly more specific and say that this is about wheels mainly for shorter commutes and for the last miles of commutes in mixed transportation mode.

[Funky]

9 hours ago, UniVehje said:

A normal sensible commuter wheel just doesn't get the attention to gain new users. 

Attention - no, no it doesn't. But new users would prefer a sensible commuter.. The sweet middle ground of EUC world. Same speed as most electric bikes, scooters. Same time lighter and more compact and boost a lot more range.

 When i bought my 18xl. I saw in store Sherman.. V11/12.. All kind of bigger EUC's. But i didn't want any of them. I knew what speeds i wanna go and how far. So i bought most sensible EUC for me. And after 3 years - now i want something even lighter. Size - i don't care. And it can go even 10km/h slower and have half of my 18xl battery for all i care.

[Funky]

7 minutes ago, Finn Bjerke said:

"Safety gear not really needed"  is extremly risky methinks. 

It makes you ride more recklessly - you take more risky moves knowing you got "safety net". At least some do..

I haven't had any mishap in summer, because i ride very defensively. Good thing everyone can choose themselves what to wear.  

My old man with his ks16s have ridden 2x more than me and have no gear what so ever.

Edited January 19 by Funky

[GothamMike]

OR?!?!?!? one does not exclude the other.

[winterwheel]

On 1/19/2024 at 2:11 PM, Funky said:

Yes it's needed, but not really. If you ride fast and with cars - ofc you need it. Going slower on sidewalks - not really.

3 years - no gear at all in winter (i got that puffy jacket and puffy gloves..) Sliding on ice/snow - not a problem. Even going fully down. This winter already went down 2 times. As for summer i'm mostly using only wrist guards. When i go for "fun" rides then i gear up with knee/wrist guards and helmet.

So far - So good. I don't even count winter slides/falls as they are pretty normal/expected. As for summer, only time i will crash is when euc stops working - so be it. I'm okay with that.

I ride every day with zero gear, have for almost eight years now. I ride on the street with cars but super defensively and nothing too crazy, top speeds 50-60kmh. I assume every car is going to do the wrong thing at the wrong time and adjust my speed accordingly or even stop if I'm not sure they've seen me. I had two run ins with cars in the early days, one on a sidewalk, one in a cross walk. I learned from those to ride super cautiously on sidewalks because cars will often cross your path unexpectedly there due to there being so many blind corners, and that cars don't always stop in time for crosswalk traffic so never assume they will.

Having made those adjustments I get along just fine.

In roughly five thousand trips on a wide variety of wheels, I have never had a wheel randomly quit on me even though I am extremely hard on them in winter particularly. This is not a reason to wear full gear for experienced riders on casual rides. Not saying there are no reasons, just that this isn't one of them.

The statistic that matters about motorcycle helmets is that they only increase your survival rate (on motorcycles) by about 30%.  People put way too much faith in them, assuming the magic powers of the helmet will allow them to ride dangerously and consequently wind up in the hospital with various other serious injuries. Our one fatality here, and most of the other wheel fatalities I'm aware of, have been riders with helmets coming in contact with motor vehicles. Also, some helmets occasionally give riders severe concussions from falls they would otherwise walk away from. Also, we have a number of super talented riders here who wear full gear; they seem to be in and out of the hospital fairly regularly with all sorts of non-head related injuries due to all the extreme stuff they do. (Shout out to Canadian health care here...)

My opinion: most but not all of the people screaming for gear haven't been riding long enough to trust their wheels. I had the same feeling the first couple of years, wondering if the wheel was going to fall over spontaneously while carrying heavy-old-me up some of our steeper hills. But I know my wheels now. And many of the long time riders I know, even those with over the top gear they ride for group rides and whatnot, have relaxed a bit and will go without gear the occasionally.

 

[null]

Didn't read all the thread:
I'd hope it is a way of travel before it is a sport.

It saddens me that actual useful transport use hasn't been the priority for manufacturers for years. It has been off-road, then some more off-road, and a little racing. All these are play usages. The US is over represented on YouTube because of reasons, and with car dependency being bonkers, EUCs are apparently just toys for grownups, and that's what you see on YouTube, and the feedback the manufacturers get.

In my part of the world there is ton of riders who do so for transport, because the culture and infrastructure allows it. They don't film themselves jumping for YouTube, they are busy going to work or wherever, and because of that they are not much represented.

It downright depresses me to see people drive their EUCs around in trucks.

Edited January 25 by null

[null]

40 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

most but not all of the people screaming for gear haven't been riding long enough to trust their wheels.

I'm close to 40K Km and trust my wheels, what I don't trust is myself and others  
(Not pushing gear on anyone though)

[Funky]

I don't really trust my wheel even after 3 years.. (It can stop working any given moment) And yet i don't really gear up. I simply ride slower without gear.  

[winterwheel]

2 hours ago, null said:

I'm close to 40K Km and trust my wheels, what I don't trust is myself and others  
(Not pushing gear on anyone though)

fair enough

 

55 minutes ago, Funky said:

I don't really trust my wheel even after 3 years.. (It can stop working any given moment) And yet i don't really gear up. I simply ride slower without gear.  

I always tell people that falling off a wheel is a drop of about six inches and eminently survivable.

[macgyvercanada]

Quote

It has been off-road, then some more off-road, and a little racing. All these are play usages. 

Ehhh I dunno.  I need off-road capability for some of my commutes; there's crappy broken pavement, loose gravel, mud, and of course Canadian winters.  Developing racing capabilities can make a wheel that's more suitable for driving in traffic (which I generally avoid).  This is like car manufacturers who develop tech for race cars that eventually trickles down to consumer models.

[winterwheel]

2 hours ago, null said:

Didn't read all the thread:
I'd hope it is a way of travel before it is a sport.

It saddens me that actual useful transport use hasn't been the priority for manufacturers for years. It has been off-road, then some more off-road, and a little racing. All these are play usages. The US is over represented on YouTube because of reasons, and with car dependency being bonkers, EUCs are apparently just toys for grownups, and that's what you see on YouTube, and the feedback the manufacturers get.

In my part of the world there is ton of riders who do so for transport, because the culture and infrastructure allows it. They don't film themselves jumping for YouTube, they are busy going to work or wherever, and because of that they are not much represented.

It downright depresses me to see people drive their EUCs around in trucks.

Wheels as a way of travel is inevitable; they are just way too convenient and productive long term, not even counting the pressure to reduce car use in cities for environmental and traffic reasons. I don't mind the adventure stuff because it breaks new ground for us in the same way that auto racing has propelled car tech forward over the years. The only problem is that right now in many places the balance is too much adventure and too little transport, but that'll change as time goes by.

[Clem604]

On 1/19/2024 at 1:27 PM, Funky said:

Good thing everyone can choose themselves what to wear.

I'm not going to go into the gear vs no gear thing it's been beaten to death at this point but I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. I believe everyone has the freedom to take the risks that they are comfortable/willing to take and no one should be talked down to or "shamed"  no matter which side you find yourself on. Just get out there and have fun!

[Funky]

3 hours ago, macgyvercanada said:

Ehhh I dunno.  I need off-road capability for some of my commutes; there's crappy broken pavement, loose gravel, mud, and of course Canadian winters.  Developing racing capabilities can make a wheel that's more suitable for driving in traffic (which I generally avoid).  This is like car manufacturers who develop tech for race cars that eventually trickles down to consumer models.

The thing is - it's the other way around. EUC's are getting bigger, faster, heavier only.. No trickling down.

I think most places have somewhat same crappy broken pavement place to place.. You still can ride with mTen4 without much trouble. Will it be comfy ride? Ofc not, but doable.

I have taken my 18xl everywhere. True forest dirt paths, to gravel roads, to asphalt, to beach sands, to feet deep snows, to ankle deep waters - No problem. EUC capability and size doesn't matter.

[macgyvercanada]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

The thing is - it's the other way around. EUC's are getting bigger, faster, heavier only.. No trickling down.

I think most places have somewhat same crappy broken pavement place to place.. You still can ride with mTen4 without much trouble. Will it be comfy ride? Ofc not, but doable.

I have taken my 18xl everywhere. True forest dirt paths, to gravel roads, to asphalt, to beach sands, to feet deep snows, to ankle deep waters - No problem. EUC capability and size doesn't matter.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong - my little V8F has a knobby tire and it's keen to go everywhere that its range will allow.  It always surprises me how well it performs for its size, though I have issues with its light weight and low pedal height; it's not easy to turn.  That said, every time I hit the big expansion joint in the bridge on my way to work my butthole puckers up and I wonder whether I've finally dented the wheel.  The V8F has a 2.125" tire and no suspension, which is suitable for a child but with my 190 lbs. I think I'm pushing well beyond its intended limits.  I've also got a few thousand miles on my V11 with its 3" tire and OG suspension; it brings a much higher level of confidence in the wheel's ability to handle any terrain.  I think that adding suspension improves the ride quality much more than an increased tire size, but each type of suspension has its own flavor of added complexity and maintenance.  I am perfectly capable of tinkering but I don't much enjoy it, so I gravitate toward wheels with larger tires and simple suspension.

You're not wrong about "bigger, faster, heavier".  I don't need to race, or do huge jumps, or have a rolling dance party, I just want to go on a long expedition on not-so-gnarly trails, get home safe through an unexpected rainstorm, and then carry my wheel downstairs.  With all that, I think my ideal wheel would be a 3/4 size Lynx which doesn't exist.

[winterwheel]

The mindset of bigger faster etc. is what progressed us into the medium sized and suspension wheels in the first place, -- I'll take a V11, S18, 18XL over my old V8 and V5F every day of the week, I thank my lucky stars I don't have to ride those anymore. Can't be too surprised they didn't stop at those wheels, especially since people seem willing to pay for the big and costly wheels coming out right now.

But even there, lots of little things that go into big wheels will eventually be used to make medium wheels better too. We're already seeing a bit of a rebound, with smaller wheels (by today's standards) in the T4 and the S19. I'd expect that to continue since there can't be a huge market for a 70mph, $8k wheel.  Surely we've reached the limit for ultra-wheels...