Is EUC a Way of Travel Or is it a Sport???

[MetricUSA]

The way each year the new models are getting bigger, faster , and way too expensive... I no longer see euc as a commuter device but a niche community fast speed sport...and so will the rest of the World because very little of you present it as travel anymore only as another form of motorcross... Sure. You will gather a few fans but it will only hurt the growth of the electric unicycle world... 

Seriously, look at all the videos out there. You only see people doing loops or doing rallies very few or actually going back and forth to to work, obviously that would be boring maybe... 

Edited June 4, 2023 by MetricUSA

[Mono]

Just like for cycling (or motorcycling), it is both. There is sports cycling (on and off road) and there is (sportish) cycling to get from A to B and there is casual cycling to get from A to B.

There is for sure a large discrepancy between the different ways how people use EUCs and what can be seen on YouTube or is discussed in EUC forums.

The play-and-errand and last-five-mile usage of EUCs is with all likelihood much more common than one would imply from watching YouTube or from the list of latest models that came out.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Mono

[Mono]

Related:

 

[Cerbera]

Remember when bicycles were things that vicars and old ladies bumbled along with in picturesque country villages, wicker basket on the front, carrying their vegetables home from market ?

Not many seen in that context any more - now we're far more likely to see bikes tearing down the side of a mountain, or vaulting 100 ft gaps in stadium shows. Which is, on the whole, much more exciting to look at... now, we are only interested in the little old lady on her bicycle if she comically falls in a lake !

There are doubtless still sweet old ladies and vicars on bicycles in villages, but it's just not worthy of note (or filming) anymore (outside those 7pm-on-a-Sunday 'murder in the village' type shows), because we are so used to it.

Likewise, there was no racing or doing exciting sketchy things with EUCs while they were in their 5 mph infancy, so once we had all seen footage of people pottering about on the last mile home from work, and had got over the 'one-wheel miracle' thing, there was nothing new to see any more until things got inevitably bigger, heavier and more practically powerful. And of course once that gets here, who still wants to see the people pottering about ? And of course new ways to use them are explored, and start to become part of / expand the hobby.

4 hours ago, MetricUSA said:

very little of you present it as travel anymore only as another form of motorcross... Sure. You will gather a few fans but it will only hurt the growth of the electric unicycle world... 

Most of the videos out there now are made by EUCers for other EUCers, or are instructional, or reviews, designed to show off the latest and greatest in the EUC world. I would imagine that would lure MORE people in to the hobby, but perhaps not the same type of people as might have been attracted initially. And yet their use as transport remains constant, it has just moved from pavements and walkways to cycle paths and roads. And the more people we have demonstrating their safe daily use in such circumstances surely must contribute their normalisation at some point, so is perhaps still a good thing. Of course the corollaries are waiting just round the corner, a big one being the fact that we also see a hell of a lot of crash and wipe-out / injury videos that can't be doing us many favours in the regulation department... but even that is inevitable, in the new world where we document everything all the time, and crashes are especially click-baity.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Cerbera

[woke rider]

For me EUC's are a craft, hobby, sport, tension reliever, and mode of transportation. People can be extremely competitive on this forum in terms of how good their safety gear is, how careful they are with their batteries, on youtube they compete with each other in races and tricks, how much abuse they can take (ramming them into walls), going down stairs backwards. It's a way of life if you let it be.

[litewave]

2 hours ago, Cerbera said:

Most of the videos out there now are made by EUCers for other EUCers, or are instructional, or reviews, designed to show off the latest and greatest in the EUC world. I would imagine that would lure MORE people in to the hobby, but perhaps not the same type of people as might have been attracted initially. And yet their use as transport remains constant, it has just moved from pavements and walkways to cycle paths and roads. And the more people we have demonstrating their safe daily use in such circumstances surely must contribute their normalisation at some point, so is perhaps still a good thing. Of course the corollaries are waiting just round the corner, a big one being the fact that we also see a hell of a lot of crash and wipe-out / injury videos that can't be doing us many favours in the regulation department... but even that is inevitable, in the new world where we document everything all the time, and crashes are especially click-baity.

After a while, these videos seem boilerplate, boring, and self-serving/narcissistic. I really appreciate videos from @FlyboyEUC and @Elliott Reitz (and many others) that share useful, practical knowledge and are less about marketing and self-promotion. Kudos to them for their selfless service to the community. When I was a newb 7 years ago, it was this community spirit that drew me in, not the tedious unboxing I-got-a-new-wheel videos. 

1 hour ago, earthtwin said:

For me EUC's are a craft, hobby, sport, tension reliever, and mode of transportation. People can be extremely competitive on this forum in terms of how good their safety gear is, how careful they are with their batteries, on youtube they compete with each other in races and tricks, how much abuse they can take (ramming them into walls), going down stairs backwards. It's a way of life if you let it be.

Right on. Glad you are part of the community.

[alcatraz]

I think we're heading into motorcycle territory. Look at all the varieties there are there. Tiny, big, offroad, trial, even many super popular designs that serve no purpose besides looking cool. Sorry Harley Davidson. 

[alcatraz]

Enduro, cross, touring, street, scooter, superbike, cruiser....

[alcatraz]

So to answer the OP's question, BOTH... and then some...

[Elliott Reitz]

On 6/4/2023 at 4:58 AM, MetricUSA said:

The way each year the new models are getting bigger, faster , and way too expensive... I no longer see euc as a commuter device but a niche community fast speed sport...and so will the rest of the World because very little of you present it as travel anymore only as another form of motorcross... Sure. You will gather a few fans but it will only hurt the growth of the electric unicycle world... 

Seriously, look at all the videos out there. You only see people doing loops or doing rallies very few or actually going back and forth to to work, obviously that would be boring maybe... 

Yea, I do vids sometimes when I ride.  Mostly not for me to watch because its a PITA uploading, etc.  My YT channel actually began as part of my guitar instructions for assburgers brain exercises long ago.  So pulling out the cell phone for a quick vid to share with friends, fam, or emerging community of EUC became worth it enough to record once in a while... but repetitive?  Well I did a couple commute vids at 40mph when I got the S20 finally working as an S22.  And just last few days another commute vid doing 51.4 mph on the Master.  So over the last year I've gotten comfortable at speed while upgrading to a faster wheel and resolving its wheel-balance issue (wheel weights work! ).  

A co-worker who I taught to ride does some tictoc vids but we're engineers, not intending to be stars for any sort of $ or excess (annoying) fame.  He has the few-miles use case serving his turo car rental side-business (haha to his engineering).   My primary use cases are 1. Run my dogs (began with e+), 2. Trails (began with MSX-100V and Loki with me... S18, tires... S20/s22), and 3. Commuting (began with new job in 2020 with S20/fail, S18/slow, MSX-100V, S22, Master > 50 mph. 

So to me is it a sport or a way of life?  Well its a sport that I enjoy greatly thanks to my health and I get to share it with my dogs, friends, co-workers, and even others around the world such as here.  And with that much enjoyment things have a way of becoming a way of life.  Bicycles come to mind that way... like how I rode my 20", then my CR-125, ... XL600, HD Sportsters, EBR-1190 (w/ 220hp in 400lbs wet).  Thanks for sharing your common interest.   

On 6/4/2023 at 1:11 PM, litewave said:

After a while, these videos seem boilerplate, boring, and self-serving/narcissistic. I really appreciate videos from @FlyboyEUC and @Elliott Reitz (and many others) that share useful, practical knowledge and are less about marketing and self-promotion. Kudos to them for their selfless service to the community. When I was a newb 7 years ago, it was this community spirit that drew me in, not the tedious unboxing I-got-a-new-wheel videos. 

Right on. Glad you are part of the community.

Thanks.  FWIW, I've been called a narcissist more times than I can count but never though of myself like that.  Likewise to you @litewave, nice to have you as part of this growing community! 

On 6/4/2023 at 5:15 AM, Mono said:

Just like for cycling (or motorcycling), it is both. There is sports cycling (on and off road) and there is (sportish) cycling to get from A to B and there is casual cycling to get from A to B.

There is for sure a large discrepancy between the different ways how people use EUCs and what can be seen on YouTube or is discussed in EUC forums.

The play-and-errand and last-five-mile usage of EUCs is with all likelihood much more common than one would imply from watching YouTube or from the list of latest models that came out.

Perfect analogy to motorcycing which at 60 began at age 4 for me.  Part of that self entertainment is amplified by common interest of others... like meeting other people with motocross bikes at the track up over the hill.  I actually met Tony Macheretti on Murphy's track (he lapped me in >5 laps on his RM125, but I kept with his trainer riding a Maco 350 with me on my CR125).  With my XL600 I taught my 2nd wife's 8yo how to ride a bike then how to do 40' jumps with me on the XL600.  

Anyway, the uses of EUCs are even wider than that of bikes.  From bikes with pedals (eg: mTen3) to daily commuter motorcycles (eg: Master, V13, EX-30, ...), the sport and lifestyles are expanding with the usecases as fast as the new and old products can be purchased.  Its a good market to be in right now as long as you don't over-extend then suffer a lockdown like what happened with my S20 (now supposedly an S22). 

[Ronin Ryder]

For me EUC is a transportation mode that helps to go from point A to B, and nothing else. Never had interest in motocross so im not going to start with EUC. When i review wheels i always do from that standpoint. 

[Scubadragonsan]

EUC is for transport, for environmentally friendly, for making errands, for thrills and fun, for exercise, for freedom, for happy spirits and for local travel...even for dating!

[bpong]

On 6/4/2023 at 4:58 AM, MetricUSA said:

The way each year the new models are getting bigger, faster , and way too expensive... I no longer see euc as a commuter device but a niche community fast speed sport...and so will the rest of the World because very little of you present it as travel anymore only as another form of motorcross... Sure. You will gather a few fans but it will only hurt the growth of the electric unicycle world... 

Seriously, look at all the videos out there. You only see people doing loops or doing rallies very few or actually going back and forth to to work, obviously that would be boring maybe... 

No one is telling any one how to use their ride.  No one... Those videos are meant for any one to view OR not to view.  The choice is the viewers and what the viewer is interested in.  Please do not interpret my reply to this topic as combative, ... that is not what im about.  Perhaps the majority of the videos show the euc being ridden at above 'normal' speeds or show some courageous individual flying thru the air (re: Leahy, euc_girl, etc,...) with "the greatest of ease..." (i admire their grit for their acrobatic efforts),  but in the end, i dont see the video-graphers urging the euc community to do the same.

What i do see are very enthusiastic euc riders !  I see quite a few oldies like myself who ride for commuting and the odd long trip to the local mall or just plain using the euc as a substitute for my 99' 4Runner (like i use it say once every 2 weeks or so for some heavy shopping or visiting friends or driving friends, etc,...)  I also see euc riders who are into the speed thing,  other euc riders who are into the off-road riding and jumping...

Just because the euc industry is putting out more powerful, bigger, faster eucs doesnt mean they are driving what euc owners want.  the manufacturers still make lower end models with less power, less weight, and lower price tags.  just look at what inmotion, kingsong, begode-gotway still offer from their prev model lineups.  the only manufacturer is see that doesnt have lower end models (and i dont think much of the company anyways) is vetera-something or whatever...

Look, if some videographer put out an euc video of some rider using their wheel to commute to work,  who the heck would watch that ???  knowing myself,  i would watch it just for the hell of it.  but im pretty sure 9 out of 10 viewers would not watch it at all.  commuting is pretty drole stuff and it wouldnt make for an interesting video unless the commuter also encountered crazy things while on the way to work (like come across some cops taking down a criminal,  seeing a police shootout with suspects,  passing by a terrorist being takened down by a swat team, etc,...)

The euc is whatever you want it to be.  there are so many models out there now,  the potential buyer can adapt their ride style to what they buy (like some big-assed powerful, heavy weight, big wheeled machine) or they can match an euc model to how they want to ride.  Damn,  i still use my old tesla V2 for commuting and im waiting for inmotion to owe-up to what they currently are proposing for their 2023 model lineup.  i can get a big-assed wheel but thats not what im about...

i dont see any of the videos hurting the future of the euc as an alternative form of personal transportation.  the only videos that i frown upon are those where the videographer is trying to show-boat on a powerful euc...  it ALWAYS makes me laugh at the inevitable result...ship of fools type outcome... in general most of the euc videos show how the euc has changed from its initial toy-like offering to its current seriously-over-powered state.  what i do see is the euc community focusing more what the euc manufacturers can do for the euc riders (higher quality control,  use of BMS in charging circuits,  better firmware, etc,...) AND the future of euc riders with the focus on state and municipal bylaws affecting and limiting our use of the streets and bike lanes.

with that in mind,  and the statement you you made at the head of this topic,  alot has changed over the past few years.   and IMO,  2023 may be a pivotal year of change because some manufacturers are putting in alot of effort to give more to the euc customer, and to improve the design of the euc for the euc rider.

there are more bigger issues affecting the PEV community (which includes euc riders) other than the videos and what the manufacturers are making for the euc market.

btw, im mainly an euc commuter,  with some fun riding thrown in for variety.

 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by bpong
adding footnote...

[Elliott Reitz]

3 hours ago, bpong said:

No one is telling any one how to use their ride.  No one... Those videos are meant for any one to view OR not to view.  The choice is the viewers and what the viewer is interested in.  Please do not interpret my reply to this topic as combative, ... that is not what im about.  Perhaps the majority of the videos show the euc being ridden at above 'normal' speeds or show some courageous individual flying thru the air (re: Leahy, euc_girl, etc,...) with "the greatest of ease..." (i admire their grit for their acrobatic efforts),  but in the end, i dont see the video-graphers urging the euc community to do the same.

What i do see are very enthusiastic euc riders !  I see quite a few oldies like myself who ride for commuting and the odd long trip to the local mall or just plain using the euc as a substitute for my 99' 4Runner (like i use it say once every 2 weeks or so for some heavy shopping or visiting friends or driving friends, etc,...)  I also see euc riders who are into the speed thing,  other euc riders who are into the off-road riding and jumping...

Just because the euc industry is putting out more powerful, bigger, faster eucs doesnt mean they are driving what euc owners want.  the manufacturers still make lower end models with less power, less weight, and lower price tags.  just look at what inmotion, kingsong, begode-gotway still offer from their prev model lineups.  the only manufacturer is see that doesnt have lower end models (and i dont think much of the company anyways) is vetera-something or whatever...

Look, if some videographer put out an euc video of some rider using their wheel to commute to work,  who the heck would watch that ???  knowing myself,  i would watch it just for the hell of it.  but im pretty sure 9 out of 10 viewers would not watch it at all.  commuting is pretty drole stuff and it wouldnt make for an interesting video unless the commuter also encountered crazy things while on the way to work (like come across some cops taking down a criminal,  seeing a police shootout with suspects,  passing by a terrorist being takened down by a swat team, etc,...)

The euc is whatever you want it to be.  there are so many models out there now,  the potential buyer can adapt their ride style to what they buy (like some big-assed powerful, heavy weight, big wheeled machine) or they can match an euc model to how they want to ride.  Damn,  i still use my old tesla V2 for commuting and im waiting for inmotion to owe-up to what they currently are proposing for their 2023 model lineup.  i can get a big-assed wheel but thats not what im about...

i dont see any of the videos hurting the future of the euc as an alternative form of personal transportation.  the only videos that i frown upon are those where the videographer is trying to show-boat on a powerful euc...  it ALWAYS makes me laugh at the inevitable result...ship of fools type outcome... in general most of the euc videos show how the euc has changed from its initial toy-like offering to its current seriously-over-powered state.  what i do see is the euc community focusing more what the euc manufacturers can do for the euc riders (higher quality control,  use of BMS in charging circuits,  better firmware, etc,...) AND the future of euc riders with the focus on state and municipal bylaws affecting and limiting our use of the streets and bike lanes.

with that in mind,  and the statement you you made at the head of this topic,  alot has changed over the past few years.   and IMO,  2023 may be a pivotal year of change because some manufacturers are putting in alot of effort to give more to the euc customer, and to improve the design of the euc for the euc rider.

there are more bigger issues affecting the PEV community (which includes euc riders) other than the videos and what the manufacturers are making for the euc market.

btw, im mainly an euc commuter,  with some fun riding thrown in for variety.

Agree!  Thanks for promoting this new tech sport and way of life. 

In reply I kinda wanna share my commute vid here (already did in the vid thread) so I wonder if I can now w/o the huge thumbnail post (?, ahhh yea, post as link instead!).  

Begode Master Commute with 51.4 mph Peak Speed, Sweeping Turns, and Riding The Cracks (Pt 1) - YouTube

Begode Master Commute with 51.4 mph Peak Speed, Sweeping Turns, and Riding The Cracks (Pt 2) - YouTube

 

[Funky]

4 hours ago, bpong said:

Just because the euc industry is putting out more powerful, bigger, faster eucs doesnt mean they are driving what euc owners want. 

Yup they aren't driving what euc owners want... But if there isn't anything "new" made in lightweight. What options you got to buy? As new buyer - if you want something small/light, you got only ~2018 options..

Some people don't really wanna buy old models. (Even knowing there isn't anything wrong with older models.) The problem is they keep making more and more heavy wheels. Ignoring low end market. How many top notch wheel we have had over last 2 years? (You can't even count them on your fingers.) And how many lightweight? (Only ONE Mten4 which was a joke of a euc.) I personally don't count that one even.

There haven't been one single "lightweight" wheel made similar to older models, but with updated everything. Only heavy turds are coming out.  Good/awesome/powerful/heavy turds.

[bpong]

2 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

Agree!  Thanks for promoting this new tech sport and way of life. 

 

e-reitz,

you're killing me !!! your video is good but it also shows that you need some safety gear !!!  great vid though... the hand held rear view mirror (which is a hand held make up mirror no less) is interesting to say the least....

ELBOW & KNEE PADS,  WRIST GUARDS (unless you already wearing them and i didnt see them),  perhaps a good motorcycle jacket with body armour since you are riding quite fast.... may be even motorcycle boots to give you more grip on your pedals...

enjoy the 2023 riding season and take care !!!

[Mono]

8 hours ago, bpong said:

you need some safety gear !!!

Reminds me of one of the reasons I have moderate interest in watching the majority of clips: the protagonists run around in clothes I have not the slightest interest of wearing myself.

[Elliott Reitz]

12 hours ago, bpong said:

e-reitz,

you're killing me !!! your video is good but it also shows that you need some safety gear !!!  great vid though... the hand held rear view mirror (which is a hand held make up mirror no less) is interesting to say the least....

ELBOW & KNEE PADS,  WRIST GUARDS (unless you already wearing them and i didnt see them),  perhaps a good motorcycle jacket with body armour since you are riding quite fast.... may be even motorcycle boots to give you more grip on your pedals...

enjoy the 2023 riding season and take care !!!

No!  Boots especially don't help - those Florsheim shoes are the best I have for riding.  Forget about Elbow & Knee guards, I don't wear those.  I tried them with my 1st wheel, an e+.  They never protected me from anything even when I was a noob with some crashing.  

3 hours ago, Mono said:

Reminds me of one of the reasons I have moderate interest in watching the majority of clips: the protagonists run around in clothes I have not the slightest interest of wearing myself.

LOL.  Scared protagonists wanted me to be injected and to wear a mask too.  So yea everyone please be careful not to promote the fear fueled lawmakers that sometimes kill sports completely (for their jurisdiction). Projecting fears upon others reduces freedom and can even kill the whole sport like what's been done to a lot of kids with bicycles.  i.e.:  THAT killed the bike/skateboard park in Syracuse NY (helmet rules, leash rules, electrification rules, etc).  Instead all the skating and biking is done around the park and the skateboard park is empty other than a couple toddlers w/ parents).  Use gear for what the gear is good for not the appearance of it.  Excessive gear with over-speed-risk vs acquired-skills is a common noob thing similar to how the leathers and gear took over most of the Harley Davidson dealership store fronts.  Caution to the common noob problem in motorcycling... excessive gear amplifying excessive confidence beyond acquired skills (and laws that mandate helmets reduce safety).  Yes I'm saying that motorcycle helmet laws reduce safety.  When I studied the statistics 25 years ago I found that motorcycle helmets increased mortality by 30% via 15% increased accidents and then 17% increased mortality of riders with hemets vs no-helmets.  It turns  out that the wiplash broken neck at the base of the skull kills more people than the number saved by reduced skull-protection.  (the best data at the time was MD when MD repealed their helmet law in the early 1990s, but then passed another ... DOT statistics backed up my assertions but of course that data is now oll gone and censored by TPTB$$$.

What's better than adding gear is skill building as part of EUC life.  Practice things in every ride (inclemently increase difficulty).  I tried to feature that in the narrative that's hard to hear cause of wind noise, and in the title:  "sweeping turns, and riding the crack".  Riding the crack helps iron out the wobble management (especially for full speed on the ultra-twitchy mTen3).  And sweeping turns at speed are similar.  Oh and I did some reverse-steering wind effect demos in it too.    That's the 'way of life'
 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Elliott Reitz
+

[Cerbera]

13 hours ago, bpong said:

you're killing me !!! your video is good but it also shows that you need some safety gear !!! 

Everyone finds the path they are happy with. Elliot is not some inexperienced noob, and has had plenty of time to find a level of armour that works for him, so, whether you agree with it or not, you have to respect his choices.

I agree with you though - I can't watch a few of his vids because the lack of armour is just too tension-inducing, and I am always expecting the dogs to run in front of his wheel at some point - the fact is that they don't, so my expectation must be wrong !

Summer, and mega hot days like today bring my own armour strategies into question. In the Autumn / Winter / Spring ATGATT works very well in that it also keeps you warm and dry, but ATGATT now would be deeply unpleasant, so I am rather loathed to go out unless I lose, at minimum, the bodysuit and heavy MC trousers. And then I don't feel adequately protected if I fall, which ends up in me either not riding at all, or waiting 'til the very end of the day when temps start to fall, which is annoying because the light is also fading when it does... I obviously don't have quite as much faith in my Master not to drop me as he does ! Not that it ever has so far I should add...

Edited June 10, 2023 by Cerbera

[Elliott Reitz]

2 hours ago, Cerbera said:

Everyone finds the path they are happy with. Elliot is not some inexperienced noob, and has had plenty of time to find a level of armour that works for him, so, whether you agree with it or not, you have to respect his choices.

I agree with you though - I can't watch a few of his vids because the lack of armour is just too tension-inducing, and I am always expecting the dogs to run in front of his wheel at some point - the fact is that they don't, so my expectation must be wrong !

Summer, and mega hot days like today bring my own armour strategies into question. In the Autumn / Winter / Spring ATGATT works very well in that it also keeps you warm and dry, but ATGATT now would be deeply unpleasant, so I am rather loathed to go out unless I lose, at minimum, the bodysuit and heavy MC trousers. And then I don't feel adequately protected if I fall, which ends up in me either not riding at all, or waiting 'til the very end of the day when temps start to fall, which is annoying because the light is also fading when it does... I obviously don't have quite as much faith in my Master not to drop me as he does ! Not that it ever has so far I should add...

Thanks. 

I guess the main thing with my gear choices is RIDER-EXPERIENCE.  I began with 700 miles on an e+ with elbow-wrist-knee guards and a helmet with Loki about 100 miles into that early experience I was down to just the wrist guards.  With my upgrade to an MSX-100V my riding was 99% off-road with it with wrist guards... and the few times I took that road-worthy wheel on the road I wore knee and elbow pads in addition to the wrist guards and helmet.  With that gear I did push the MSX-100V up to 35 mph on one of my early rides which I didn't repeat for about a year after that because I needed suspension for ankles... and also realized wobble-skill-challenge via a new S18... SO that boils down to 5 years with 6000 miles to gain the skills that give me confidence with the gear selections that may appear so lax to noobs. 

If a noob goes 50mph that's crazy regardless how much gear such hypothetical noob wears.  At that speed an impact with anything can be deadly... helmets only protect from impacts in the range of 8-13 mph.  {+} Note road experience with bicycles and motorcycles is a huge boost too.  Incremental speeds with posture variation, foot-shifting, etc... 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Elliott Reitz
{+}

[The Brahan Seer]

15 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

I guess the main thing with my gear choices is RIDER-EXPERIENCE.

I guess you have never had any serious crashes judging by your gear choice. So in this aspect perhaps you are inexperienced. Or you just love pain!

I do agree with you that practice and learning the skills is so important to keep you safe. So miles really doesn't mean anything if you don't practice the skills. 

But even better is learning/ practice and wearing protection.  Gear might not for save your life but in my rider experience it does minimise the hurt and maybe the number of injuries. 

I admire your faith in your wheel, in other people and your own instincts to not need to wear any gear. You do you. 

 

 

 

[Mono]

3 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

When I studied the statistics 25 years ago I found that motorcycle helmets increased mortality by 30% via 15% increased accidents and then 17% increased mortality of riders with hemets vs no-helmets.

Is there any way I can solicit a source for these stats?

[Freeforester]

See Schumacher, M; not dead, but changed, utterly.

What’s the saying?  There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but…

[Mono]

5 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

I do agree with you that practice and learning the skills is so important to keep you safe.

same here

[Mono]

2 hours ago, Freeforester said:

See Schumacher, M

Wearing probably the best helmet money can buy and still... What does this teach us apart from it's not the gear which keeps you safe?

Edited June 10, 2023 by Mono